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  #141  
Old Posted May 12, 2021, 6:06 PM
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Originally Posted by MonkeyRonin View Post
Sheppard and Finch are also part of NYCC. There you go - 3 corridors.

I think you're getting too caught up in the distinction between linear vs. "blobular" urban configurations, while ignoring the bigger picture of density, walkability, amenities, quality of public realm, etc.

Toronto's development patterns in general are very linear, so if anything Etobicoke, Markham, Oakville, etc. will come to resemble North York moreso than necessarily "surpass" it.
By that standard, Etobicoke City Centre has 5 or 6 corridors. But I didn't include Kipling and East Mall or Burnhamthorpe for a reason, same way I didn't include Sheppard and Finch for a reason. But Kipling and East Mall does further support my point about the flaw of North York City Centre.

What is the main defining feature of a downtown compared to a suburb? What is it that separates a pre-war neighbourhood like Brockton from a post-war neighbourhood like Jane-Finch? It's not density, it's permeability. And lack of permeability is where North York Centre and the former city of North York as a whole fails.

The arterials or thoroughfares in North York are just the existing concessions, and even some of those are broken up like Lawrence East in the Bridle Path and the huge jog of Sheppard West. They didn't bother to build any new arterials, any new transit corridors, to reduce the walking distances between them, to better connect different neighbourhoods, not even for North York City Centre. Just lack of thought toward the bigger picture, and what is a "downtown" without considering the bigger picture?

You can see the same in Vaughan, with Langstaff Road broken into multiple pieces, and Pine Valley Road broken as well. Compare that to new throughfares in Markham like Bur Oak, Enterprise, and Birchmount. Mississauga built new roads like Rathburn, Confederation, Glen Erin. Brampton built Williams Parkway and Sandalwood Parkway. Vaughan built nothing, just like North York built nothing. Lack of permeability or connectivity is what makes Vaughan the worst planned suburb in the GTA, and it will never be as urban or transit-oriented as Markham for that reason alone. And in spirit, North York is closer to Vaughan than it is to Markham, and that will only become more and more apparent in the coming decades.

Contrast that to Scarborough which had north-south arterials much closer together from the beginning, and they even built new east-west arterials like Progress and McNicoll. Much more permeable and cohesive than North York. Corridors much closer together, transit routes more likely to be within walking distance, and so different areas of Scarborough are much better connected together, and that is the foundation for a walkable and transit-friendly urban environment that North York sorely lacks. That is what defines a downtown: it is the most connected place. The high density of North York Centre is only making up for a lack of connectedness or permeability. North York Centre is more the product of planning failure, not of planning success.
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  #142  
Old Posted May 12, 2021, 7:08 PM
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What is the main defining feature of a downtown compared to a suburb? What is it that separates a pre-war neighbourhood like Brockton from a post-war neighbourhood like Jane-Finch? It's not density, it's permeability. And lack of permeability is where North York Centre and the former city of North York as a whole fails.

The arterials or thoroughfares in North York are just the existing concessions, and even some of those are broken up like Lawrence East in the Bridle Path and the huge jog of Sheppard West. They didn't bother to build any new arterials, any new transit corridors, to reduce the walking distances between them, to better connect different neighbourhoods, not even for North York City Centre. Just lack of thought toward the bigger picture, and what is a "downtown" without considering the bigger picture?

You can see the same in Vaughan, with Langstaff Road broken into multiple pieces, and Pine Valley Road broken as well. Compare that to new throughfares in Markham like Bur Oak, Enterprise, and Birchmount. Mississauga built new roads like Rathburn, Confederation, Glen Erin. Brampton built Williams Parkway and Sandalwood Parkway. Vaughan built nothing, just like North York built nothing. Lack of permeability or connectivity is what makes Vaughan the worst planned suburb in the GTA, and it will never be as urban or transit-oriented as Markham for that reason alone. And in spirit, North York is closer to Vaughan than it is to Markham, and that will only become more and more apparent in the coming decades.

Contrast that to Scarborough which had north-south arterials much closer together from the beginning, and they even built new east-west arterials like Progress and McNicoll. Much more permeable and cohesive than North York. Corridors much closer together, transit routes more likely to be within walking distance, and so different areas of Scarborough are much better connected together, and that is the foundation for a walkable and transit-friendly urban environment that North York sorely lacks. That is what defines a downtown: it is the most connected place. The high density of North York Centre is only making up for a lack of connectedness or permeability. North York Centre is more the product of planning failure, not of planning success.

I mean, North York is literally on a grid. Markham, Mississauga, Scarborough et all had to build more arterials to facilitate through-traffic around their otherwise impermeable cul-de-sacs.

Which of these city centres looks like it has the best connectivity with its surroundings?













(To your point, Etobicoke's is arguably better; so it could in theory have more "potential". Whether or not that potential will actually be taken advantage of is another question)
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  #143  
Old Posted May 13, 2021, 6:29 AM
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A lot of this in downtown New Westminster, though I don't know how it has changed over time or if the pandemic has had an impact. There's frequently junkies blocking a pathway between Carnarvon and Clarkson Streets, they shoot up right in broad daylight.
yes, I do the landscaping maintenance at the tower on the west side of this pathway. I've seen it all.
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  #144  
Old Posted May 13, 2021, 3:05 PM
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Which pseudo downtowns stand the best chances at making the leap to true (or nearly so) downtowns in the next decade or so? Can that 'downtown feeling' be reproduced in areas lacking the following: at least a few small land parcels, masonry buildings, narrower streets with shorter blocks, rail mass transit, etc.?
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  #145  
Old Posted May 13, 2021, 3:25 PM
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yes, I do the landscaping maintenance at the tower on the west side of this pathway. I've seen it all.
I believe I have seen you in person, if you're referring to the pathway between 8th and 6th. I sometimes go to the coffee shop there and I've seen a landscaping person a couple of times.
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  #146  
Old Posted May 13, 2021, 5:12 PM
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It would be great if we could see some greenfield city centres with severely restricted automobile access, provided that there is ample transit, with parking of very limited supply confined to the margins, underground or in garages on the edges of these city centres.
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  #147  
Old Posted May 13, 2021, 7:14 PM
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Originally Posted by MonkeyRonin View Post
I mean, North York is literally on a grid. Markham, Mississauga, Scarborough et all had to build more arterials to facilitate through-traffic around their otherwise impermeable cul-de-sacs.

Which of these city centres looks like it has the best connectivity with its surroundings?

...

(To your point, Etobicoke's is arguably better; so it could in theory have more "potential". Whether or not that potential will actually be taken advantage of is another question)
I think NYCC is ahead of Markham Centre, MCC, SCC as an urban neighbourhood. I'm just saying that as a "downtown", the potential of NYCC is limited because it was not conceived as part of a big picture. So no new east-west corridor was built for it, like Rathburn in Mississauga, Progress in Scarborough, Enterprise/Yorktech/S. Unionville in Markham. It's like how Port Credit and Streetsville are urban, but they are not really "downtowns" due to not being well connected to the surrounding city. The old part of Brampton has the same problem. These places are more successful but they were never ambitious to begin with.

I think North York gets too much attention when it is noticeably flawed even compared to the other former suburbs. And then places like Markham and Oakville don't get any credit for trying to build a cohesive and connected city (or town in the case of Oakville). I think in the future Markham Centre and Uptown Core can surpass NYCC, because unlike NYCC each are part of a bigger plan to build a cohesive and connected city (or town). I think ECC will surpass NYCC for similar reason, and arguably it is already not far behind.

NYCC had the benefit of the Yonge Subway, but as you said that is going to be extended into York Region, and soon Newtonbook and Thornhill will also have the benefit of the Yonge Subway and I think eventually they will not look much different.
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  #148  
Old Posted May 13, 2021, 11:19 PM
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Originally Posted by MolsonExport View Post
Which pseudo downtowns stand the best chances at making the leap to true (or nearly so) downtowns in the next decade or so? Can that 'downtown feeling' be reproduced in areas lacking the following: at least a few small land parcels, masonry buildings, narrower streets with shorter blocks, rail mass transit, etc.?
I'm not sure about the framing. "True" downtowns often have those things because many are among the oldest parts of towns and cities and are therefore... old. Many originated from eras prior to the widespread use of the automobile and therefore bear the pre-automobile aesthetic urban enthusiasts tend to love. But I would argue that those things are common consequences rather than necessary pre-conditions or essential elements of being downtowns. The only necessary pre-condition would be that an area is the leading commercial, institutional, administrative, and cultural hub of the region. Perhaps not of an entire extended regionsuch as a whole metro area, but at least of its immediate region in the case of secondary downtowns. Not every downtown is going to be all of these things to the same extent since every region is different, but this is a good starting point.

But there are examples of downtowns that meet this definition while lacking the aesthetics and charisma that one might expect. That famous surface-parking picture of Houston in the 80s comes to mind, but there are still cities with varying degrees of this. While at the same time, there are many urban neighbourhoods in major cities such as NY, Tokyo, and Paris etc. with greater levels of density, vibrancy, and charisma than many actual NA downtown but which aren't a downtown because they don't act as the hub of their region. Yet in NA, people seem to expect all nodes of increased density to be a downtown, likely out of the vague aesthetic resemblance between them and North American downtowns which often also have a highrise cluster and a big density increase compared to the surroundings. But I think we should dis-entangle the two concepts.

We shouldn't expect a dense urban neighbourhood, including one with a prominent skyline, to be a "downtown or city centre." It may simply be a pocket of increased density that developed because of high demand near a transit hub or because it's one of the few places where highrises and commercial zoning is permitted. We should strive for all parts of a city to be denser, more vibrant and more attractive, but I'm skeptical that actual secondary downtown (defined as the leading commercial, institutional, administrative, and cultural hub of its region) is more likely than other areas to achieve it. For new regional centres, the commercial pressures often seem to push in the direction of large complexes and block sizes - at least under our current economic and administrative structures. Even with legacy downtown, much of the postwar development has been in the form of megastructures that wouldn't on their own makes for a charismatic area without the legacy finely-grained base.

The main takeaway for me is that there's little reason to expect a new area to have characteristics which resemble the old simply because of added density. Whether it be a new "downtown" or just a much more common density pocket, if we choose to build new areas closer to the format of the old they can achieve many of the same benefits. But that's the same whether they be typical residential neighbourhoods the scale of town/row houses or high density areas with skyscrapers. But regardless, it strikes me as a bit of a lost cause to expect new high density nodes - particularly if they aren't actual city centres - to seem like legacy downtowns.
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  #149  
Old Posted May 14, 2021, 6:42 AM
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I believe I have seen you in person, if you're referring to the pathway between 8th and 6th. I sometimes go to the coffee shop there and I've seen a landscaping person a couple of times.
this could have been me. our small company employs five people, but I am currently the man on site. Monday mornings unless it's a stat holiday. the building is 720 Carnarvon, just below the courthouse.
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  #150  
Old Posted May 14, 2021, 2:24 PM
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But there are examples of downtowns that meet this definition while lacking the aesthetics and charisma that one might expect. That famous surface-parking picture of Houston in the 80s comes to mind, but there are still cities with varying degrees of this. While at the same time, there are many urban neighbourhoods in major cities such as NY, Tokyo, and Paris etc. with greater levels of density, vibrancy, and charisma than many actual NA downtown but which aren't a downtown because they don't act as the hub of their region. Yet in NA, people seem to expect all nodes of increased density to be a downtown, likely out of the vague aesthetic resemblance between them and North American downtowns which often also have a highrise cluster and a big density increase compared to the surroundings. But I think we should dis-entangle the two concepts.

Beyond this, there are areas that lack what we consider to be the physical qualities of a downtown/urban node that can in fact develop into genuinely interesting areas. This almost always happens organically and relates to building uses changing gradually over time resulting in an eclectic array of uses. Small building plots helps a lot in this of course.

Older industrial areas that retain this character but repurpose themselves with uses that may have traditionally been on main streets are very interesting to me. As newer industrial users eschew the small purpose-built buildings for suburban warehouses can make way for relatively cheap space that's occupied by things like clothing/design stores, art spaces, breweries, coffee shops etc. Goes against all accepted planning norms but are often more interesting than purpose built downtowns. I can't think of a good example in Toronto but West Loop in Chicago, West Buckman(?) in Portland would qualify even though they are fairly central. In Johannesburg the very suburban industrial office park of Kramerville has turned into a design hub and cafes/bars/restaurants have seemed to follow.
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  #151  
Old Posted May 14, 2021, 4:15 PM
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Beyond this, there are areas that lack what we consider to be the physical qualities of a downtown/urban node that can in fact develop into genuinely interesting areas. This almost always happens organically and relates to building uses changing gradually over time resulting in an eclectic array of uses. Small building plots helps a lot in this of course.

Older industrial areas that retain this character but repurpose themselves with uses that may have traditionally been on main streets are very interesting to me. As newer industrial users eschew the small purpose-built buildings for suburban warehouses can make way for relatively cheap space that's occupied by things like clothing/design stores, art spaces, breweries, coffee shops etc. Goes against all accepted planning norms but are often more interesting than purpose built downtowns. I can't think of a good example in Toronto but West Loop in Chicago, West Buckman(?) in Portland would qualify even though they are fairly central. In Johannesburg the very suburban industrial office park of Kramerville has turned into a design hub and cafes/bars/restaurants have seemed to follow.
i agree. I love repurposed industrial buildings/zones. However most modern industrial zones are soul-sucking collections of single-story buildings comprised primarily of truck bays, rather than the old brick, often multistory, industrial buildings of the prewar period.
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  #152  
Old Posted May 14, 2021, 4:32 PM
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Beyond this, there are areas that lack what we consider to be the physical qualities of a downtown/urban node that can in fact develop into genuinely interesting areas. This almost always happens organically and relates to building uses changing gradually over time resulting in an eclectic array of uses. Small building plots helps a lot in this of course.

Older industrial areas that retain this character but repurpose themselves with uses that may have traditionally been on main streets are very interesting to me. As newer industrial users eschew the small purpose-built buildings for suburban warehouses can make way for relatively cheap space that's occupied by things like clothing/design stores, art spaces, breweries, coffee shops etc. Goes against all accepted planning norms but are often more interesting than purpose built downtowns. I can't think of a good example in Toronto but West Loop in Chicago, West Buckman(?) in Portland would qualify even though they are fairly central. In Johannesburg the very suburban industrial office park of Kramerville has turned into a design hub and cafes/bars/restaurants have seemed to follow.
Parts of Dupont and especially Geary have/are developing this vibe. Carlaw between Queen and Gerrard as well.
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  #153  
Old Posted May 14, 2021, 4:38 PM
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Older industrial areas that retain this character but repurpose themselves with uses that may have traditionally been on main streets are very interesting to me. As newer industrial users eschew the small purpose-built buildings for suburban warehouses can make way for relatively cheap space that's occupied by things like clothing/design stores, art spaces, breweries, coffee shops etc. Goes against all accepted planning norms but are often more interesting than purpose built downtowns. I can't think of a good example in Toronto but West Loop in Chicago, West Buckman(?) in Portland would qualify even though they are fairly central. In Johannesburg the very suburban industrial office park of Kramerville has turned into a design hub and cafes/bars/restaurants have seemed to follow.

Geary? (as a much smaller version)

Or the entertainment district in the 90s.
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  #154  
Old Posted May 14, 2021, 5:05 PM
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Geary and Carlaw are good choices for sure, albeit on the smaller side.

The Castlefield / Caledonia design district has potential though the buildings are on the large side. The industrial area between Islington and Kipling south of Kipling station also could be interesting as the surrounding areas add density.
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  #155  
Old Posted Dec 17, 2021, 3:24 PM
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There are a lot of pseudo downtowns in Canada. This might be the most pseudo of all:

yorklink

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  #156  
Old Posted Dec 17, 2021, 3:46 PM
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My two cents: Downtown Richmond, BC


Source

https://www.google.com/maps/@49.1524.../data=!3m1!1e3

It is steadily transforming from a nowhereville suburban ‘downtown’ with a couple of ramshackle civic facilities and a couple malls into a legitimate small but vibrant downtown. Anchored by the traditional suburban centres of gravity, malls (soon to be redeveloped as high-density, mall-anchored mixed use developments), it has benefitted in previous decades from good bones (a grid system in the down core and a broader grid system of city-spanning arterials with a mix of impenetrable cul de sac and conventional suburbs enclosed therein). Prescient decisions over the years to locate or rebuild civic infrastructure (hospital, city hall, performing arts centre, major recreation facilities) in the downtown core have ensured there was a reason to go there, in addition to the malls.

Richmond has been close enough to the City of Vancouver to function as a commuter suburb, but simultaneously far enough away to warrant its own cultural-commercial ecosystem. The decision to extend rapid transit (SkyTrain Canada Line) to the city and host a major 2010 Olympics competition venue (Olympic Oval, designed from day-one to be a civic recreation facility afterwards) kicked high-density development, already long-under way, into high gear.

Proximity (adjacency, really) to YVR airport and the presence of flight path height restrictions had the effect of capping the height of development at a relatively low 10-15+ storeys (depending on the area), resulting in less expensive development projects that lowered the barrier to entry for local and international developers, yielding more projects across the city than its rate of growth would suggest. This has had the effect of generally having more of the downtown area experience redevelopment than would be the case with more conventional tower heights. Proximity to the airport has also resulted in the development of a significant amount of hotel space, much of traditional low-cost select service fare, but also proper full-service ‘downtown’ hotels integrated into the existing and expanding walkable downtown core.

While it has generally been residential development with modest retail and minimal office that's been built in the last 15-20 year growth cycle, newer projects have begun to include some decently-sized office buildings (<100,000 sqft). Several have been completed to date as part of larger mixed-use projects, including one mixed-use building hosting satellite campuses of local post-secondary institutions (Kwantlan Technical University and Trinity Western University). Large-scale master-planned communities in the vicinity of a future SkyTrain station (Capstan Station) were tapped with special levies to generate the majority of the capital required for the roughed-in future station to now be proceeding to construction.

Furthermore, the large and growing Chinese (Hong Kong and Mainland) population has fostered extensive commercial, particularly retail, activity over the decades. This has historically made the city the only or primary location for certain forms of retail (strata-retail malls, night markets, specialty bakeries, grocery, seafood, and butchers, etc.) and hospitality (dim sum, banquet halls, karaoke bars, etc.) in the region.

I would add, too, that the integration of the SkyTrain Canada Line into the downtown has been highly successful and minimally disruptive. It is wholly elevated and runs for several kilometers down one side of the city's main street (Number 3 Road), but the columns are low, the stations are well-designed and have good integration and relationships with adjacent buildings, and they really followed through on the promise of generous landscaping, public art, and quality architectural lighting.


Source

Above is the single-track 'tail' section of the line leading to the terminus station of Richmond-Brighouse (pictured). Future expansion was designed into the system, including sufficient column strength and building clearances that will permit the single track segment (~750m) to be removed and replaced with double-track and an expanded station should the line be extended further south some time in the future (no plans for this in the next 20+ years).


Source

Above is what a double-tracked section in the vicinity of Aberdeen Station looks like on the ground. Present, surely, but not oppressively so.

Recent projects nearing completion are quite high-quality, urban, and transformative in their affect on downtown. For example, in one fell swoop, this 4 mid-rise tower (3 residential, 1 office) mixed-use project, Paramount, replaced a rundown mini-mall half a city block in size.


Source

Paramount is located adjacent to the Richmond-Brighouse SkyTrain Canada Line Station with a new urban-format major Translink mid-block bus station in between, below. The huge setback for future expansion of the SkyTrain are also evident in this photo.


Source

And the Olympic Oval neighbourhood immediately adjacent to downtown is really filling in, too, though it definitely has more of a master-planned feel.

Source

And the next wave of development in this neighbourhood may take a fascinating Nordic turn as the next two renders illustrate, though the 27 acre site was just sold for $300M to Keltic Developments (same company that did Paramount, above) and the architects behind the concept (GBL, same as above, too) have taken it down from their website, hence the Imgur source links.


Source


Source

CF Richmond Centre will be unrecognizable when redeveloped. 13 towers are proposed with 1,700+ units, along with office, daycare, streetfront retail, and a district energy system. GBL are, again, the architects.

Source

This barely scratches the surface of what's in the pipeline for downtown Richmond, too. Since the Olympics, there has been non-stop development occurring in the 'Oval' neighbourhood adjacent to downtown, and inevitably this area will be lumped in with downtown once the light industrial vestiges in between are consumed. Downtown, Lansdowne Mall is also going to be redeveloped and it's easily double the size of CF Richmond Centre, not to mention dozens of infill redevelopment sites along Number Three Road and its adjacent side streets. But despite so much in the pipeline, we're still talking decades to build it all out and I think that Richmond is going to be largely successful in still managing to achieve an organic feeling to its downtown growth.

I lived nearby for several years in the mid 2010s and enjoyed it. It's not downtown Vancouver or Toronto by any means, but it feels like an authentic place and there's people on the streets thanks to SkyTrain and a distinct sense of identity separate from the rest of the region.

Furthermore, there seems to be a lot of buy-in from residents, developers, and the City about the future of the city and the expectations on new development (inclusionary zoning, fair density bonusing, new public amenities delivered by developers or actually built by the City and other agencies using the development fees that have been collected). There are lots of parks and substantial reinvestment in them. A major order for new trains for the Canada Line will double capacity and help alleviate the sometimes-crushing (pre-COVID) passenger conditions. There's a firm commitment by the City to expand walking and cycling and transit use while still incorporating cars into the built environment, but not necessarily giving them primacy (e.g. underground or podium-enclosed parking is mandatory so no new surface parking lots, AAA [or at least AA] bicycle facilities on key corridors, including Number 3 Road, a linked system of waterfront cycling/multi-use trails and rail trails, etc.).

Lots of potential lessons to be learned by other aspiring pseudo downtowns.
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  #157  
Old Posted Dec 17, 2021, 4:10 PM
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The notion of pseudo-downtowns was recently brought up in another thread, with respect to Laval, Mississauga City Centre, and other latter-day attempts to create downtowns from scratch.

Add water and watch it grow. Sim City 2000. The real question is: Can pseudo-Downtowns ever become true downtowns? A bunch of tall buildings does not make a downtown.

It must be possible. Somewhere, it must have been achieved. But for my money, I don't know that I have seen a latter-day downtown truly make the grade. Not Surrey City Centre, Not Metrotown. Definitely not Laval.

Will time tell? Can these new city centres, like North York City Centre (arguably the closest one to making the jump from pseudo to real downtown, on account of having a metro line), make the jump? Or are they forever doomed, on account of 6 lanes-wide boulevard (with two more turning lanes), very long blocks, monotonous blue glass walls, and just nothing that is eclectic/novel/intesting. Olive Garden does not count.

Post your shots of pseudo-downtowns. Make the case for/against their ability to become true downtowns. Discuss the secret sauce of downtowns (for me: true rail-based mass transit, eclectic mix of buildings of different styles, ages, heights, lots of independent/family businesses, a mix of arts/museums, retail, large office buildings, and residential, narrow streets and short blocks, grid, etc.).

This one in Brossard is trying. Buildings are note skyscrapper high, but good density is being built. With a few street level stores and some parks and center places with activities planned, will it succeed and will it ressemble a type of downtown ? It remains to be seen.
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  #158  
Old Posted Dec 17, 2021, 4:33 PM
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Vaughan is simply too early to judge. It's literally a handful of buildings right now. I think it has a good base and should turn out decently overall, though it's in the middle of an industrial park so it lacks that "surrounding density" being discussed. it'll make up for that in just huge densities within the core itself though.

It needs some urban format retail right now, and badly. Specifically a grocer. Right now residents have to walk over to the walmart which is as suburban as they come despite being literally brand new.
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  #159  
Old Posted Dec 17, 2021, 4:36 PM
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Great rundown of downtown Richmond, SFUVancouver. I love Richmond and it is amazing to see how it has evolved over the last 30 years. It feels like a nice mid-sized city downtown in its own right. If there is a better "pseudo-Downtown" in Canada, I have yet to see it.
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  #160  
Old Posted Dec 17, 2021, 5:31 PM
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Richmond seemed to get it right quite early. I remember when I lived there (mid 90s) and things were densifying in a more or less organic fashion, and the streets gave a better downtown vibe to pedestrians than say, much larger Metrotown did.
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