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  #281  
Old Posted Jan 16, 2020, 1:58 AM
Djeffery Djeffery is offline
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I get that playing in a 17,000 seat arena isn't ideal, even with the curtain, but where is he going to go? Brampton?
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  #282  
Old Posted Jan 16, 2020, 2:30 AM
GreatTallNorth2 GreatTallNorth2 is online now
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Hey! Londoner here with an outside opinion on this - why do you not just rebuild Copps with around 12-15,000 seats? I would think it's a no-brainer to keep it downtown.
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  #283  
Old Posted Jan 16, 2020, 2:13 PM
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Hey! Londoner here with an outside opinion on this - why do you not just rebuild Copps with around 12-15,000 seats? I would think it's a no-brainer to keep it downtown.
Thats what the majority of staff, council and consultants prefer. Though probably in the 10k range. 15k would be nice but i hear the costs increase exponentially when you go above 10k.
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  #284  
Old Posted Jan 17, 2020, 11:52 AM
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I don’t think some of you realize how broke the city is. We can barely maintain Copps and some of you think a second arena is a good idea. We are already taxed to hell with little to show for it, we shouldn’t even entertain the ridiculous idea of a second arena.
I'm not saying the City own the 6k arena. I'm saying the market could sustain it. I hope CF and MA come back with a private plan. It's already zoned, and they could. I read on Danko's twitter. And the competition would be good.

Carmens came out on Stonechurch in the late 80s. They owned the wedding banguete market in the City. Then Michaelangelos opens in the 90s. Same thing happened and they make each other better.
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  #285  
Old Posted Jan 17, 2020, 3:19 PM
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I'm not saying the City own the 6k arena. I'm saying the market could sustain it. I hope CF and MA come back with a private plan. It's already zoned, and they could. I read on Danko's twitter. And the competition would be good.

Carmens came out on Stonechurch in the late 80s. They owned the wedding banguete market in the City. Then Michaelangelos opens in the 90s. Same thing happened and they make each other better.
Seeing how MA and CF were only willing to contribute $30m and land to a project totaling $125m, i doubt they’re business model is profitable if they have to self fund the $95m they were asking the city to contribute.

Also comparing banquet halls to sports arenas in terms of capital investment, operating costs, and market demand is apples to oranges IMO. Especially when one of the two arenas would lack a dedicated tennant. Banquest halls are rented by the avg joe and there are lots of them. Sports arenas are not rented by the avg joe and the customer base to rent them is much smaller, a problem intensified by lack of primary tenant.
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  #286  
Old Posted Jan 17, 2020, 6:22 PM
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What’s the chance an OHL team would work here with the arena situation the way it is?
(Hamilton Spectator, Scott Radley, Feb 24 2012)

There are more than a few questions left unanswered by the city staff report outlining the proposed move of an Ontario Hockey League franchise to Hamilton. The identity of the mystery buyer is a biggie, of course. Another, however, stands even above that.

Can a junior team succeed playing its game either at the undersized Dave Andreychuk Mountain Arena or at the oversized Copps Coliseum? These two arenas, after all, have been cited over the years as at least part of the reason two previous junior teams left, the NHL hasn’t come here and the Bulldogs have struggled to draw fans.

Is there a realistic chance this could work?

“I believe an OHL team can absolutely be successful in Hamilton,” says Dundas Real McCoys owner and hockey consultant Don Robertson.

The city report that will be presented to council Monday says the mystery buyer who would move the OHL team here — three sources have told The Spectator the team is the Erie Otters — would begin playing at Mountain Arena in the fall and remain there for as long as five years. It would be by far the smallest arena in the league with a capacity of just 2,500, and the second-oldest.

Pete Richards played there for half of his three-year stint as a goalie with the Hamilton Steelhawks in the mid-’80s while waiting for construction on Copps to be finished.

“Every night it was jammed,” he says. “It was an awesome place to play. When you fill that building, it’s no different than playing in front of 20,000 people.”

Despite the tremendous atmosphere that would almost certainly exist, he can’t see how Mountain Arena could be a long-term solution for an OHL franchise. It’s too small, too old, too light on amenities and too worn.

Which brings us to Copps, which has plenty more seats but has long been criticized for having no atmosphere. The report says, if the Bulldogs leave town during the five-year transitional period, the junior squad would move into the downtown arena.

Mario Cupido isn’t sure that situation would be any better. The one-time co-owner of the Hamilton FinCups and the Dukes says the only reason junior hockey didn’t work in the past was building-related. It’s a problem he believes remains.

“You can’t play out of Copps Coliseum,” he says. “It’s impossible. You can’t play out of Mountain Arena. It’s impossible. You need a rink of 5,000 to 6,000.”

He says he tried to create one. In 1978, he had plans to renovate Mountain Arena and add as many as 4,000 seats. The proposal was taken to council but neighbourhood residents protested and it never went anywhere. He put the FinCups up for sale the next day.

In the city report, the prospective owners say they intend to build a new arena if the Bulldogs remain in town and Copps is unavailable to the OHL squad five years from now. No specifics were included.

Perhaps the person who’s in the best position to know if this could work is Bill Burke.

The owner of the Niagara IceDogs runs his team on a budget he says is near the league average. Most games are sold out at the ancient Jack Gatecliff Arena in St. Catharines. Yet in five years he’s never made money on his investment.

The problem is the arena. It’s too small — he says 3,500 paying fans is roughly the break-even point for the OHL — and too old. In short, it’s almost exactly the same as Mountain Arena is now.

Not long ago, Burke told city council there if they didn’t build a new facility, he’d have to move. Councillors voted to construct a $45-million, 4,500-seat arena with the amenities a modern team needs to turn even a small profit. It’ll be ready in 2014. Burke promptly signed a 20-year lease.

He wouldn’t mind filling some of those seats with fans from Hamilton. While this city likely falls in his protected territory, Burke says he would welcome a new rival anticipating it would pull more Hamiltonians into his building when the new team visited.

“I wouldn’t veto it,” he says.

His break-even number is part of the reason Robertson thinks Copps could work.

Most OHL buildings now are essentially mini NHL arenas. When the upper deck is curtained off, Copps becomes something like that. With 9,500 seats in the lower bowl it would be almost the same size as the John Labbatt Centre in London where the Knights play to full houses.

Robertson believes a minimum of 4,000 fans a game in Hamilton would be a reasonable expectation. That’s almost exactly what the Bulldogs are drawing this season. By Burke’s numbers, that would make the franchise profitable and sustainable. Not to mention, using Copps would open the door to hosting the Memorial Cup or World Junior championship, or both.

“You could make Copps Coliseum and the lower bowl work,” he says.
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  #287  
Old Posted Jan 17, 2020, 7:24 PM
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I'm not sure the city should allow an OHL team to dominate the discussion. The city report said First Ontario makes no money on the team but does on the other events.
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  #288  
Old Posted Jan 17, 2020, 8:50 PM
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Whats the relevance of that 2012 article? Maybe some of the same issues exist 8 years later?
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  #289  
Old Posted Jan 17, 2020, 11:37 PM
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Whats the relevance of that 2012 article? Maybe some of the same issues exist 8 years later?
More or less exactly why I posted it.
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  #290  
Old Posted Jan 18, 2020, 12:55 PM
thistleclub thistleclub is offline
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Another instructive flashback...

HECFI boss says agency’s future needs to be debated
(Hamilton Spectator, Andrew Dreschel, Nov 24 2010)

Councillor Sam Merulla has found an unlikely ally in his campaign to privatize HECFI.

Duncan Gillespie, the entertainment agency’s CEO, says Merulla’s motion is not without merit.

“In light of our current financial situation, it’s not unreasonable for that option to be considered,” Gillespie said in an interview yesterday.

The difference is that while Merulla wants to immediately dissolve the board of directors and contract operations to a private firm, Gillespie believes the time is ripe for the idea to be thoroughly reviewed and debated.

The arm’s-length agency that runs Copps Coliseum, Hamilton Place and the Convention Centre revealed last week that it has a $1.5 million operating deficit, which it attributes to shrinking concerts and conferences stemming from the straggling economy.

The shortfall will boost the city’s annual payout of $5.75 million in grants, subsidies and fees to $7.25 million for 2011.

That prompted Merulla to resurrect the idea of handing over operations of the money-draining assets to the private sector. After dissolving the board, he wants city manager Chris Murray to assume control until an operating company is found.

Merulla intends to advance that as a formal motion shortly after the new council assumes power Dec. 1.

“I’m not a proponent of privatization, but there are some businesses we don’t belong in and entertainment is one of then,” said Merulla.


Read it in full here.
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  #291  
Old Posted Jan 18, 2020, 8:39 PM
thistleclub thistleclub is offline
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In light of a CHCH report that the Bulldogs are looking to partner with Cadillac Fairview for a similar area development beside Burlington Mall, another flashback...

During a Hamilton’s infamous Pan Am Stadium flustercluck, the Ticats were shopping their wares around the region in search of some bargaining leverage.

One site that was briefly in play was the Paletta-owned lands south of the 403 between Aldershot GO and King Road. That storyline sputtered out quickly.

In Dec 2010, then-Councillor Meed Ward (now mayor) voted against funding an Aldershot stadium for the Ticats, in a situation where Burlington would have had to contribute $30m toward a $130m facility.

In January 2011, her colleagues on Burlington’s council came around to her POV and rejected any such proposal unless it could be developed and operated at no cost to Burlington taxpayers. It could not.

As such, for the Bulldogs/CF Burlington Mall sequel to have any juice, it would likely have to be fully funded by the private sector (as senior government would require substantial municipal contribution).
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  #292  
Old Posted Jan 20, 2020, 4:39 PM
king10 king10 is offline
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In light of a CHCH report that the Bulldogs are looking to partner with Cadillac Fairview for a similar area development beside Burlington Mall, another flashback...

During a Hamilton’s infamous Pan Am Stadium flustercluck, the Ticats were shopping their wares around the region in search of some bargaining leverage.

One site that was briefly in play was the Paletta-owned lands south of the 403 between Aldershot GO and King Road. That storyline sputtered out quickly.

In Dec 2010, then-Councillor Meed Ward (now mayor) voted against funding an Aldershot stadium for the Ticats, in a situation where Burlington would have had to contribute $30m toward a $130m facility.

In January 2011, her colleagues on Burlington’s council came around to her POV and rejected any such proposal unless it could be developed and operated at no cost to Burlington taxpayers. It could not.

As such, for the Bulldogs/CF Burlington Mall sequel to have any juice, it would likely have to be fully funded by the private sector (as senior government would require substantial municipal contribution).
if thats the case then whats stopping them from building 100% private at limeridge? Its already zoned for their intended purpose. Looks like theyre just going around with their hands out to whoever will fund 80% of the cost. Doubt burlington is interested but who knows.
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  #293  
Old Posted Jan 21, 2020, 2:17 PM
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Could Hamilton Mountain Arena rejection cost city nearly $1 billion?
(Hamilton Spectator, Scott Radley, Jan 21 2019)

When city council voted 11-3 last week to kill the idea of any further consideration of a 6,000-seat arena at Lime Ridge Mall, it leaned heavily on a staff report urging such a decision.

Not to worry, the report implied. Having a rink downtown is way better. Besides, it won't affect Cadillac Fairview's plans to spend $890 million redeveloping the Mountain property. Might delay it a bit but that's it. So go ahead and vote against it. All is well.

Not so fast, the executive vice president of Cadillac Fairview says.

"I think the short answer to that is, yes, it is at risk," Wayne Barwise says.

Not just short term. Completely. As in, potentially no 1,250-unit residential development, no hotel, no expanded office space, no new jobs. None of it. Because what would lure people there?

"People have not traditionally chosen to live at a shopping centre," he says. "We're trying to transform the shopping centre into more than a shopping centre so it's a mixed use community. So you need other things. You need catalysts."

This should be concerning to everyone in Hamilton.

For the better part of a decade, this town has turned itself into a pretzel over the LRT because of the billion dollars of someone else's money it could bring into the community that would transform part of the city. Supporters — including many at city hall — say it's essential. Politicians and bureaucrats have spent thousands of hours working to make sure that desperately needed cash infusion comes here.Yet when a company says it wants to invest nearly an equal amount elsewhere in the city, there seems to be a whole lot less urgency. 

This is troubling. Even more so when one of that company's top executives argues the numbers the city is relying on to make its decision are "plain nonsense." He says the real amount the proposal would cost the city wouldn't be well over $100 million but closer to $27 million.


Read it in full here.


Aside from his self-interested position as a sports writer, Radley is a content provider at a click-hungry daily. He has an interest in stoking controversy — he's also a call-in host, remember — but has covered the Bulldogs file long enough to know some salient details here, among them:

• Andlauer has been seeking to build a privately funded arena in-market since 2009;
• The Bulldogs came looking for disproportionate City subsidies shortly after arriving here — as an AHL franchise;
• The Bulldogs are the current facility's biggest money loser, and as such would potentially require lower rent at a box-fresh facility than in a 35-year-old barn in order to remain financially viable;
• Andlauer's commitment is unconvincing, going from 50% of capital costs in 2017 to a cap of $30M paid out over an unspecified term, and with potential back-billing based on suggested sole-sourcing venue management to him for the first 20 years of venue operation (in contravention of City procurement policy); and
• Andlauer's contention that "I don't want to dictate where it's going to go" on venue siting (floated in Nov 2017, alongside his matching funds pledge) is equally squishy.

Moreover, CF and the Bulldogs seem prepared to go it alone at RioCan-owned Burlington Centre. Burlington's council passed on a $130M Pan Am Stadium over concerns that it would require city taxpayers to shoulder a fraction of that cost. (Then-councillor Meed Ward was among the deal's most vocal critics, and considered any such promises to be baseless: "The Ticats, as far as I know, have no authority to negotiate on behalf of the province or on behalf of Toronto 2015 so saying that there are no capital dollars required is disingenuous. The Ticats do not control the provincial purse strings so there is still a funding shortfall."). CF/Andlauer are evidently trying to shift the thinking of Hamilton's council, but come off as similarly faithless actors.

On top of all of the above is the dubious development calculus argument presented here.

Glossed over is that the promised "development" being used as a yardstick is the blue-sky, blank slate version of CF’s purported $890M development aspirations for the LRM property.

When presented to the City's planning department in May 2018, those uncosted plans included 12 new buildings, nearly 200,000 square feet of new retail and commercial space, and a 494-space parking garage. The Bulldogs didn't enter into the LRM equation until a year and a half later (though admittedly, in 2016/17, Andlauer and CF had been angling to develop a city-funded arena in T.B. McQuesten Park, along with restaurants, residential towers and a Linc-spanning pedestrian bridge to mall parking).

In those plans, there was no 6,000-seat arena, and no arena-sized pedestrian piazza (rendered as if it would be the lovechild of Yonge-Dundas Square and Jurassic Park) that would displace parking (losing surface Lots E & H) as well as eliminate private development options in favour of publicly owned facilities, meaning reduced levels of forecast capital investment/tax assessment. All for a facility that, under a best-case scenario, will be dormant for two-thirds of the year. This opportunity cost is never accounted for.

Beyond that, the notion that CF is dutifully providing the city with $12M in property taxes annually contains at least a grain of hokum. Two years ago, the Spec noted:

Quote:
Nearly all local malls and office buildings have appealed recent property assessments — raising the prospect homeowners will shoulder more of the city's total tax bill.… Right now, CF Lime Ridge Mall is one of the city's top taxpayers at close to $7.5 million. But it has appealed its 2017 property assessment, as have other large Hamilton mall locations like Centre on Barton and Eastgate Square and smaller plazas around the city.
So CF Lime Ridge is already saddling homeowners with additional tax burden.

Radley's clickbaity LRT/LRM investment binary is also askew.

Aside from the attendant transportation benefits, the former investment would repair/replace 14 centerline kilometers of road and upgrade sub-grade infrastructure, as well as unlocking development potential across five wards, all ostensibly funded by the province. The myriad benefits are spread across not just the lower city, but also help reduce the crushing infrastructure deficit felt by all local taxpayers.

The latter, whose cost would be three-quarters carried by local taxpayers, would principally benefit one private landlord of a site a third of a square kilometer in area, it would prop up what is, according to its VP, a failing commercial property (rather than a site of dynamic urban transformation posting its highest national sales productivity ranking of the last four years even as market peer Mapleview slipped in the same rankings), to the tune of more than $100M. CF can dispute the math, but is fronting zero capital; the past estimates on what it would cost to develop a parking garage — from the City as well as Metrolinx — suggest $40K-$50K/space is not inconceivable, meaning that an 1,800-space parking garage in itself could cost $90M.

If CF really wanted to project credibility as a serious development partner, they would offer to entirely fund the parking garage themselves, breaking ground ASAP in order to accelerate these negotiations and inspire council and staff to re-examine the merits and the math of a scale-model arena.
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Last edited by thistleclub; Jan 23, 2020 at 2:41 PM.
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  #294  
Old Posted Jan 21, 2020, 6:13 PM
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Great analysis. Radley's articles of late on the arena situation have been pretty annoying.

Given how crazy rents have become in Hamilton of late, building apartments on Limeridge mall parking lots has to make more sense now than it did just a few years ago. This just seems like a scheme to fleece the city into paying for a parking garage for CF.
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  #295  
Old Posted Jan 21, 2020, 6:18 PM
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Wow Radley wants this arena built at all costs no matter how much the tax payer is getting fleeced. Seems his profession as a sports writer is really skewing his opinion.

Why should a city struggling with tax increases and a growing backlog of deferred capital rehab subsidize the development on private land of a multi billion dollar company.

Also, great analysis thistleclub.
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  #296  
Old Posted Jan 21, 2020, 6:42 PM
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Meanwhile at Mississauga' Square One

Massive 37 tower, 18,000 unit development planned for area around Square One
https://www.cp24.com/news/massive-37...-one-1.4777077



Oxford Properties says that the transformation of the area around Square One Shopping Centre is a “multi-phase, multi-decade project” that will eventually transform “swaths of parking lots” into a “vibrant community.”

The first phase will begin this summer with the start of construction of two new residential towers

at the Southeast corner of Rathburn Road and Confederation Parkway. The 36 and 48-storey towers, which are being built in partnership with the Daniels Corporation, will consist of 402 rental apartments and 575 condominium suites.

An additional 5,000 residential units will then be constructed over the next five to seven years.

Oxford Properties says that the project will create 6,500 direct jobs over the next five years and 35,000 direct jobs over the life of the project.

Mark Cote, who is Oxford Properties head of development for Canada, said in the press release that the hope is to deliver “a walkable, downtown district in Mississauga."
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  #297  
Old Posted Jan 21, 2020, 8:44 PM
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It's simply not good policy to build an arena or stadium in an area lacking in transit and walkability. Whether they keep FOC or build a new arena downtown, it will be accessible by future all-day GO Transit and whatever form of rapid transit ends up being built downtown, as well as most HSR bus routes. If it was built at Lime Ridge Mall with a new parking garage, few would consider taking transit, especially from out of town. It could not possibly be marketed as a transit-accessible venue.
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  #298  
Old Posted Jan 21, 2020, 9:32 PM
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I'm not stupid enough to fall for it when people try to hinge big developments on the creation of a large world-class arena that hosts an NHL and/or NBA team, so it's laughable that I'm supposed to believe that $1B of development depends on a 6,000 seat arena that hosts an OHL team.
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  #299  
Old Posted Jan 22, 2020, 7:59 PM
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I'm not stupid enough to fall for it when people try to hinge big developments on the creation of a large world-class arena that hosts an NHL and/or NBA team, so it's laughable that I'm supposed to believe that $1B of development depends on a 6,000 seat arena that hosts an OHL team.
QFT
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  #300  
Old Posted Jan 22, 2020, 8:01 PM
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Wow Radley wants this arena built at all costs no matter how much the tax payer is getting fleeced. Seems his profession as a sports writer is really skewing his opinion.

Why should a city struggling with tax increases and a growing backlog of deferred capital rehab subsidize the development on private land of a multi billion dollar company.

Also, great analysis thistleclub.
That too
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