Basketball in Canada

[rousseau]

Originally Posted by Andy6

I've known a lot of Americans in Toronto who were basically lost outside of the universe of brands and consumer goods that they knew. And those were supposedly sophisticated graduate students and professionals, not basketball players. We're conscious of Canada's near-total irrelevance everywhere outside of Canada and it's consequently easy for us to substitute Walgreen's for Shoppers Drug Mart or Comcast for Rogers. That ease of psychological adjustment is not reciprocal at all ... it's as if they've never even considered that there could be a place where the touchstones of their material universe aren't recognized (even if it's just Cap'n Crunch).

Very elegantly put. I think the first reckoning for me that we were on the outside looking in was while watching Saturday morning cartoons. There was something that you could get by writing to "Rockville, Maryland," and the first time I saw it I instinctively knew it wasn't for us.

[elly63]

Originally Posted by logan5

Nope. Almost every Grizzlies player had some level of dissatisfaction. Even Shareef complained when he was drafted here. Big Country Reeves wife hated here. Like Chris Bosh said, players won't sign in Toronto simply because it's not America. You'd think these guys would be happy to get away from a country that has major issues.

They couldn't see their highlights on ESPN, the list went on and on. Typical uneducated, entitled millionaire syndrome.

[Andy6]

Originally Posted by wave46

The taxes thing I get, especially compared to low-tax states.

But....um, 'wat' for the rest of it. Most of the major brands of whatever your heart desires are here, aside from maybe grocery stores/drug stores? Even they carry a pretty complete set of America-brand whatever, with maybe the exception of chocolate bars?

It's not that, so much as that "Canada ... doesn't ... compute ..." -- it doesn't fit into the vast mental map of the world that Americans have drilled into them by their culture, and in which American places, things and concerns constitute basically the entire referential universe (other places exist, but only in relation to the U.S. -- Americans tend to be baffled when two other countries have a relationship that doesn't involve the U.S. in any way).

I had an American friend when I was an academic - very nice guy, professor in a deep South state, totally apolitical, culturally Midwestern to his unpretentious core - who told me once, when we were at some conference in Europe, that in his view it really wasn't that necessary to travel outside the U.S. because the U.S. has every type of climate and topography within it. And I get that -- it's almost true (far more so than Canada even though we're geographically a bit bigger). But, true or not, it represents their way of thinking in a larger sense. Consider the way they kibbitz about what state they come from and how each state has some particular stereotypical character that they all know and joke about. Well, among the 50 of them, pretty much every type of character, type of economy, political orientation, etc. etc. is represented. Similarly, whatever any city around the world might be known for, there's likely to be a U.S. city that they know much better that is known for much the same thing.

Their mental map is already complete without ever having to think much beyond their own country. Then suddenly we're trying to graft a "Toronto" on top of all that? Sure, Toronto's okay and all -- clean and safe -- but they just don't need it. Their picture of the world is already complete and they want to be somewhere that has a place within that framework and that signifies things within their own American culture or subculture.

(Apologies for the generalizations in the above - not everyone is that way, of course, but in my experience it is still pretty common even among people who are highly educated.)

[someone123]

Originally Posted by Andy6

Then suddenly we're trying to graft a "Toronto" on top of all that? Sure, Toronto's okay and all -- clean and safe -- but they just don't need it.

The material standard of living of well-off Canadians seems a lot worse than that of well-off Americans too.

If you are one of the superstars making $30M+ a year it doesn't matter as much, but if you are making $1.2M a year you will lose half of that to taxes. Then you need to factor in that your career will only last a few years, so you'd better save most of your money. If you are smart, you will only live on maybe $200,000 a year. You will be able to afford a nice house in a nice part of Toronto. But in Florida or Texas you would be able to live in a palace if you wanted. And a lot more Americans seem to want this, complete with fleet of suburban assault vehicles, the army of landscapers and nannies who wander around your property in your gated compound, etc. while to me it all feels a bit unseemly.

I go to the US pretty frequently and I don't feel very "at home" there. American society doesn't align that well with my own personal values, whether we're talking about red or blue tribal zones. I don't think I would want to move to an American city. I'd probably pick the UK over the US, all else being equal. I assume I'd go with Australia or New Zealand first too, but I have never been to those countries.

[kool maudit]

There really are times, though, when you just want your own stuff. I live in Scandinavia and it's great; it out-Canadas Canada in a lot of ways, even in areas like health care that we are proud of.

But it's been a year since I've been home and I just want a diner. I want skyscrapers. I want Twizzlers and Q Tips and a Western omelette.

I want to be asked "how's it goin'" and tell people to "have a good one".

I'll be fine after a few weeks but this is normal human expatriate stuff. It's not necessarily some big US pathology.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by kool maudit

There really are times, though, when you just want your own stuff. I live in Scandinavia and it's great; it out-Canadas Canada in a lot of ways, even in areas like health care that we are proud of.

But it's been a year since I've been home and I just want a diner. I want skyscrapers. I want Twizzlers and Q Tips and a Western omelette.

I want to be asked "how's it goin'" and tell people to "have a good one".

I'll be fine after a few weeks but this is normal human expatriate stuff. It's not necessarily some big US pathology.

True. But everything is always more intense when Americans go through it. Plus it is always in our faces all the time.

Cue Brits and Aussies (and maybe even some Canadians) who are aware that NYC got 50 cm of snow but are oblivious that Halifax got 100 cm.

[wave46]

Originally Posted by kool maudit

There really are times, though, when you just want your own stuff. I live in Scandinavia and it's great; it out-Canadas Canada in a lot of ways, even in areas like health care that we are proud of.

But it's been a year since I've been home and I just want a diner. I want skyscrapers. I want Twizzlers and Q Tips and a Western omelette.

I want to be asked "how's it goin'" and tell people to "have a good one".

I'll be fine after a few weeks but this is normal human expatriate stuff. It's not necessarily some big US pathology.

That I get.

I suppose I haven't spent enough time away to get that 'longing' sense. I'm not sure if being more culturally similar makes things better or worse in a way.

If you share a language and culture, you tend to notice the small things much more quickly as you don't have to cope with the basics of figuring life out.

[rousseau]

Originally Posted by wave46

I suppose I haven't spent enough time away to get that 'longing' sense. I'm not sure if being more culturally similar makes things better or worse in a way.

If you share a language and culture, you tend to notice the small things much more quickly as you don't have to cope with the basics of figuring life out.

I think there must be some truth to that. I lived in Taiwan for six years during my late twenties and I never missed Canada a single second. It had nothing to do with any negative feeling about Canada at all, but rather that I was immersed in a culture so utterly different from my own. The expectation right from the get-go was that the social, cultural, commercial and built environments would be uniquely challenging. The initial novelty gradually tapered to a low-level quotidian frisson that never went away.

Though that didn't stop some Americans from whining about the lack of Cap'n Crunch.

[Acajack]

I do think this a fairly personal thing, and likely there are differences between natonalities that enter into it too .

I know that in my time abroad for extended periods (not as long as kool and Rousseau's) I sometimes longed to speak and hear French - especially with our accent.

My only exposure during those periods generally being occasional phone calls to my parents and passing French and Quebec tourists.

[Maldive]

Since it came up, I've had the pleasure to meet some cool Kiwis here. If mistaken for an Aussie, they freeze up. And correct you.

Aus/NZ seems kinda like the "living next to a navel-gazing elephant" that we endure.

Aus is exhibiting a bunch of U.S. style bravado. NZ rolls its eyes.

NZ on my bucket list visits for sure.


P.S. have no idea where an elephant's navel is

[MonkeyRonin]

Originally Posted by logan5

You'd think these guys would be happy to get away from a country that has major issues.

I think a lot of the middle-class would be happy with a life in Canada, but these kinds of people are pretty insulated from the challenges of daily life in America. If you're a pro athlete getting paid $20 million per year, the breakfast cereal selection probably has more of a material effect on your quality of life than comparative abstractions like police brutality, inequality, or workers rights.

Also, the biggest challenge in attracting talent from the States is that as an American you're obligated to pay income tax in two countries. No matter what our tax rate is or what salary the organization is offering, you're always going to be financially worse off by playing in Toronto.

That's why I've always maintained that the Raptors would be smarter to go after international players (which is something that Masai seems to understand as well) - for them it's the same difference between moving to Canada or to the US.

Giannis is a free agent next year!

[kool maudit]

Also... I mean, a lot of Americans just LIKE America. It's like how I like Canada even though I dont like, say, our indigenous rights record. Its comfy being at home.

[rousseau]

Originally Posted by Acajack

I do think this a fairly personal thing...

Continuing to get way off topic here, but who cares? You're right that you can't generalize this too much. Lots of players have loved playing in Toronto. Former players show up to games all the time, taking guest spots with the commentators or just being interviewed on the sidelines. The affection for the city and the fans is real, and there are lots of long-lasting relationships between former players and the organization. You don't see this with too many other teams.

Not to mention the fact that Toronto has been a longstanding favourite destination for visiting teams due to the, uh, cosmopolitan nightlife. Believe it or not fellow Canadians who who either resent the Big Smoke or don't follow the NBA, but Toronto is party town on the hoops circuit.

Though visiting and actually living there are different things, obviously.

Originally Posted by Acajack

I know that in my time abroad for extended periods (not as long as kool and Rousseau's) I sometimes longed to speak and hear French - especially with our accent.

I don't know if this is an individual thing, or maybe it's yet another totem on the pole of the anglo-franco cultural divide, but that was something that literally never happened to me in terms of Canadian English. There weren't that many Canadians among the thirty or so ESL-teaching foreigners that I was acquainted with at any given time during my sojourn in Taiwan. My closest friends were from the UK and the US, and there were times when I could go a week without talking to non-UK English-speakers without blinking an eye.

Granted, your average liberal arts major from Portland or Ohio doing the ESL thing in Asia is essentially going to serve the function of "home English stand-in" for a Canadian, so that could explain the difference between my experience and yours.

[suburbanite]

Originally Posted by rousseau

Not to mention the fact that Toronto has been a longstanding favourite destination for visiting teams due to the, uh, cosmopolitan nightlife. Believe it or not fellow Canadians who who either resent the Big Smoke or don't follow the NBA, but Toronto is party town on the hoops circuit.

Toronto has long been known as "Vegas North" in the NBA. The urban legend is that Toronto's party scene was the main reason the Raptors were one of the 10 losses that Michael Jordan's 72-10 Bulls suffered that year.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by rousseau

Continuing to get way off topic here, but who cares? You're right that you can't generalize this too much. Lots of players have loved playing in Toronto. Former players show up to games all the time, taking guest spots with the commentators or just being interviewed on the sidelines. The affection for the city and the fans is real, and there are lots of long-lasting relationships between former players and the organization. You don't see this with too many other teams.

Not to mention the fact that Toronto has been a longstanding favourite destination for visiting teams due to the, uh, cosmopolitan nightlife. Believe it or not fellow Canadians who who either resent the Big Smoke or don't follow the NBA, but Toronto is party town on the hoops circuit.

Though visiting and actually living there are different things, obviously.



I don't know if this is an individual thing, or maybe it's yet another totem on the pole of the anglo-franco cultural divide, but that was something that literally never happened to me in terms of Canadian English. There weren't that many Canadians among the thirty or so ESL-teaching foreigners that I was acquainted with at any given time during my sojourn in Taiwan. My closest friends were from the UK and the US, and there were times when I could go a week without talking to non-UK English-speakers without blinking an eye.

Granted, your average liberal arts major from Portland or Ohio doing the ESL thing in Asia is essentially going to serve the function of "home English stand-in" for a Canadian, so that could explain the difference between my experience and yours.

Could be yet another of those handful of weird cases where we are clearly more like the Americans than you guys are!

[megadude]

https://www.wsj.com/articles/SB10001...13711299000350

From the WSJ. Could have used the Toronto Life article, but thought I'd post from an American perspective.

Mona is a legend. She's basically a promoter who knows all the spots and introduces the athletes to Toronto's finest aka girls looking to hook up aka unpaid escorts.

Apparently there's a story where a player was late for the team bus and when he finally showed up, everyone turned their head to look at him, paused, then started chanting MONA, MONA, MONA!

Why Pro Athletes Love Toronto
Chic, Discreet and Increasingly Party-Filled, Canada's Sports Hub Permits Jocks to Cut Loose
By Hannah Karp
Updated March 10, 2010 12:01 am ET
Toronto

American pro athletes used to think of Toronto as a backwater. High taxes and low temperatures combined with a woeful lack of television exposure back in the States made playing here about as appealing as Canada's national dish of french fries soaked in gravy and cheese curds.

B.J. Armstrong, the first expansion-draft pick of the NBA's Toronto Raptors, famously asked to be traded shortly after setting foot here for the first time.

Today, however, Toronto is a road trip just about every pro athlete looks forward to. Some say the city has a cool, international vibe that increasingly stands out. Some like the plentitude of cheap concert tickets—a boon for athletes with big posses—or the convenience of the must-be-19 drinking law. (Rookie guard DeMar DeRozan of the Raptors, who is 20, was ordering chocolate milk at dinner before his teammates told him the good news).

Athletes get a warm welcome at the city's relatively libertine gentlemen's clubs which, according to a spokeswoman for the Toronto Convention and Visitors Bureau, tend to "clear out the champagne room" for visiting athletes. And it helps that the tentacles of the tabloids and gossip Web sites rarely extend this far into the frozen north. "People like to come here to party," says Raptors power forward Chris Bosh.

Basketball stars like LeBron James and Shaquille O'Neal of the Cleveland Cavaliers and Jamaal Magloire of the Miami Heat (a Toronto native) have come to Toronto for fun—even during the NBA offseason. Since the Buffalo Bills began playing annual games at Toronto's Rogers Centre (formerly SkyDome) in 2008, an increasing number of NFL players have started passing through "the 416," which is the city's area code. Baseball players, who've been coming here since 1977 to play the Blue Jays, have good memories.

"It reminds me of Tokyo," says Hideki Matsui, the Angels' new designated hitter, who came to Toronto for many years with the New York Yankees. Going out with his teammates was always a relief, he says, because "the attention level is not as bad as New York—though being a pretty big-sized Asian person there are a few people who recognize me."

Though it may not have more bars and clubs than other pro sports towns, many of Toronto's 3,300-plus establishments holding liquor licenses are concentrated within walking distance of the city's major sports venues—and close to the hotels where athletes tend to stay. Five new five-star hotels are expected to open in the area in the next two years.

When the sun sets in Toronto and the roof of the Rogers Centre starts to glow like giant spaceship, the downtown club district—once a quiet industrial stretch of garment factories—begins to teem with life. Strolling the streets from bar to bar are well-dressed revelers of all ethnicities.

Jarrett Jack, a Raptors guard, says the "mix of people" in Toronto is far more interesting than he sees in most NBA towns. "One girl told me she's from Hungary and Chile—I'm like, how does that happen?" says Mr. Jack. "You kind of go outside the box here."

At the center of much of the city's athlete nightlife is an event planner and promoter named Mona Halem, a former employee of the Air Canada Centre, which is home to the Raptors. Ms. Halem has become "notorious" throughout the sports world, says Raptors forward Antoine Wright, for assembling attractive party guests to fete nearly every franchise that comes to town.

[rousseau]

Andrew Wiggins to Toronto if Kawhi signs somewhere else? I just heard the suggestion and find it rather intriguing.

[suburbanite]

Originally Posted by rousseau

Andrew Wiggins to Toronto if Kawhi signs somewhere else? I just heard the suggestion and find it rather intriguing.

Hopefully not. All for a hometown kid making his mark but Wiggins has done nothing to prove he has the willingness or drive to do what it takes to be a star in this league. Probably the worst contract in the NBA right now.

[elly63]

Report: Murray, Nuggets agree to $170M deal
TSN.ca Staff July 1 2019

Canadian guard Jamal Miurray of the Denver Nuggets is reportedly going to be sticking with the team long term.

According to Shams Charania of the Athletic and Stadium, the 22-year-old Murray and the Nuggets have agreed to a five-year, $170 million maximum contract extension.

TSN Raptors reporter Josh Lewenberg points out that Murray's deal will make him the highest paid Canadian athlete ever, surpassing the five-year, $148 million deal that Andrew Wiggins signed with the Minnesota Timberwolves in 2017.

Murray, who hails from Kitchener, has been a starter for the Nuggets since his second season in the NBA. This past season, which was Murray's third as a pro, he averaged 18.2 points and 4.8 rebounds en route to helping the Nuggets come within one game of reaching the Western Conference finals.

Murray joined the Nuggets after being drafted by the team seventh overall in the 2016 draft out of Kentucky.

[TorontoDrew]

Raptors getting ready for Kawhi Leonard meeting
Getting a true feel for where reigning Finals MVP will land remains a mystery
From NBA Twitter and media reports

Jul 3, 2019 2:57 PM ET

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It's going on at the 4 Season's right now.