Phoenix CityScape Thread

[CANUC]

Freaking awesome! I don’t really care all that much about the height issue and lets be honest with each other RED stated very early on that the towers would be roughly 400ft tall, it was this forum that started hedging bets that they would or should go taller. Maybe we talked ourselves into believing DT’s new tallest would come in from Cityscape. Anyways excited to see the pics and even more surprised that tower 3 will go up in phase II while the office tower is still rising, the skeptic in me thought two towers at the most. Hey, phase III is still open and could possibly have – a new tallest? Wishful thinking but the possibility is still there.

A couple of observations; someone asked about where a new tallest would go now that RED has announced the project heights of the first three buildings. My suggestion would be the current ASU Ramada dorms. About a two years ago there was a proposal for a 50 story tower on that very sight. The plans seemed to have been shelved but maybe it’s a location that’s still viable. Second since Wachovia will be a major tenant in the Cityscape office building that means OCPE is still the only Class A office building under development. With the recent talk of falling vacancy rates I wonder if we could still see yet one more office tower come online before Cityscape or OCPE reach completion.

[HX_Guy]

Yes, RED did say from the begining that the towers would be around 400' and we all hoped it would be more...but they also showed renderings with a 44 story tower, and at 44 stories, even all residential, it would mean right around 500'. Let's also not forget that they applied for 510' with the FAA so they have/had every intention to build a new tallest.

They have not released the final heights. I'm pretty certain they don't even have that part finalized yet, and with the condo/hotel tower not scheduled to start construction until mid 2008, they still have a lot of time to tweak things.

The Wachovia tower seems the most set right now. The rendering shows 26 floors, and their news release said Wachovia is taking 70,000 sq ft over 3 floors. That means roughly 23,333 sq ft per floors...the tower is 600,000 sq ft, or again, 26 floors. All the math adds up...and at 26 floors, it should put this at around 380', same as Central Park East.

[PHX31]

Originally Posted by HX_Guy

A mixed condo/office/hotel tower would have been way too tall to ever get approval. If the current plans calls for a 38 story and a 26 story tower, combining the two would mean a tower around 800 ft, something that would never fly in that spot.

[/i][/b]

I meant a mixed office/hotel only, no condos. That seems like it would be fairly tall, yet not too tall.

[Cranetastic]

I was a little shocked myself to see tower three be a part of phase II. That is pretty exciting. I also have never seen any renderings of tower three and four until now so thanks for those HX_Guy. I think they look really nice. I like the offsetting "crown" treatment. If we don't get a new tallest for Cityscape then I guess our next immediate hope would be for SWDG to get their 50 story residential towers going. That should be at least 500'. Generally I'd hope for a new tallest to be an office tower instead of a residential or hotel tower, but that's just me.

[sundevilgrad]

Wow! Those renderings are sweet, and we're getting a new tallest, and they're building 3 of the towers!

[HX_Guy]

Here is a new site plan I ran across. I had to retype the items and it's hard to make out details, but it gives a good idea of the placement of everything and relative size to each other.



I'm glad to see there is a substantial opening off of Jefferson and it's not walled off like in the original site plans. Also, the Palomar hotel/condo tower seems to be roughly the same footprint as 44 Monroe, about a 1/4 of the block, which I like. I was hoping it wouldn't be too wide.

[hi123]

So the palomar tower and the wachovia tower will be the first 2 towers to start construction right?

[HX_Guy]

Here is the timeline for the project:

As currently planned, the project will have three phases.
• Phase I (4th Quarter 2009) Construction to start in 3 weeks
o Class A office tower (Middle Block)
o +/- 200,000 square feet of retail (West & Middle Blocks)
o Apartments (West Block)
o The new Patriot’s Park
o Renovated Patriot’s Park parking garage (West Block)
o Underground parking (Middle Block)

• Phase II (2010) Construction to start mid 2008
o Mixed-use tower – residential condominiums and Hotel
Palomar (Middle Block)
o Mixed-use tower – TWELVE Hotel & Residences (East
Block)
o +/- 30,000 square feet of retail (East Block)
o Underground parking (East Block)

• Phase III (2011, based on market conditions) Constrution schedule unknown
o Residential condominium tower (East Block)
o +/- 30,000 square feet of retail (East Block)
o Above ground parking (Block 23)

[AZ KID]

Wow thanks HX Guy!!
I am so excited for Cityscape. It also looks like there will be plenty of trees (not palm trees.. yeah!!) scattered throughout it. Finally SHADE!!!!!

[Sonoran_Dweller]

This is great stuff!!! I am so excited!!!

We should not get too down if it does not become the new tallest. As long as we get more businesess, residents, and tourists downtown, then the job was done. I 'd rather have a busy 24-7 downtown with no highrises than the world tallest buildings with a dull, empty downtown. No matter what happens, downtown Phoenix wins- this will bring business, money, people, and a true city environment to Phoenix.

It is a great time to be a Downtown Phoenix aficionado!!!!!

[HX_Guy]

I agree with you Sonoran Dweller, it would just have been cool to get a new tallest and would have been great for the project itself. It would have given it that much more attention.

But like you mentioned, the main thing here is to bring residents, businesses, money, entertainment, etc to downtown and create a 24/7 environment...and really, the height of the building doesn't have all that much impact on this (aside of course from providing more units). There are plenty of empty lots downtown where the opportunity for a new tallest can happen. The fact that we are getting at least 3 towers for now is great news and better then most had hoped for at least.

[FortyAcres]

Originally Posted by HooverDam

-Chipotle
-Gelato Spot
-Pop the Soda Shop (they only have one location currently, I don't know if they are looking to expand, but I'd love to have one downtown)
-Cereality (www.cereality.com)
-Manuels or some sort of Mexican (currently the only large Mexican places downtown are Mi Amigos and Matador)
-See's Candy, or some sort of candy store
-In'N'Out burger (it would have to have an urban design obviously)
-YCs Mongolian
-Hot Dog on a Stick
Non food/retail:
-Apple Store
-House of Hoops (new Nike/Footlocker store dedicated to basketball apparel, it could do well in our hoops crazed city)
-H&M and/or Buffalo Exchange
-Blockbuster/Hollywood video (there is nowhere downtown to rent movies) Anyway, there probably isn't room for all of those, especially since I listed a ton of eateries. Any places I didn't list that you'd like to see? Downtown currently lacks a lot in the way of retail, especially clothing, so hopefully Cityscape can fill that need.

nice list. Earlier in the thread, i was calling for an H&M too.

Since its fun to speculate, i'd like to see:

RETAIL/GROCERY
H&M
Retail Labratory
Barney's
Barnes & Noble (i can't stand the layout of Borders)
Apple
AJ's
Blockbuster

RESTAURANTS/CAFES
Asia de Cuba
PF Chang's
A Sam Richardson Argentine Steakhouse concept
Salt Lick BBQ (http://www.saltlickbbq.com/)
Alamo Draft House (http://www.drafthouse.com/)
Lebanese, Ethiopian, Thai or other unique ethnic boutique restaurant
Coffee Plantation
Cereality (solid idea, Hoover .. and its local)

BARS
A f'ing decent sports bar (yes Majerle's is shite -- maybe a Half Moon)
Rooftop/basement speakeasy type bar (like Monroe's used to be like)
A rooftop wine bar or Barcelona concept (cougars!)
A country/juke box bar (TT Roadhouse/Rogue people?)

I'm from Austin, and downtown, 6th/5th/4th street, and the warehouse district all have rooftop drinking ... especially since its smoke-free too. People like to have a GD cocktail on the roof, DO THIS!!


I know this is waaaay more than there is room, but dreaming's free.

[PhxSprawler]

I would like to add something speculative that is missing from the area - furniture stores.

Ikea is so far away. The city needs a West Elm, maybe a Williams Sonoma, and maybe a consignment store... or some similar variation of the above.

[HX_Guy]

How about a Pier 1? They have nice furniture at decent prices and it's pretty chic, I could see it in an urban environment.

[andrewkfromaz]

Originally Posted by FortyAcres

I know this is waaaay more than there is room, but dreaming's free.

Interesting point. Kierland Commons has a total of 438,000 sq feet of gross leasable area according to Wikipedia.
The SuperTarget at Christown mall consists of 173,900 sq feet.
The Crate and Barrel at Scottsdale Fashion is 35,111 sq feet.
Something to compare.

[HX_Guy]

...and Phase I of CityScape will have 200,000 sq ft of retail of which PF Chang's is taking 8,000 sq ft and AJs is taking 10,000-15,000. That leaves 177,000 sq ft, which is a decent amount. It all depends on who the retailers will be...they could fit as few as 5 or as many as 20+ Im sure.

[kaneui]

Interesting updated design for CityScape...a very respectable project, but unfortunate it won't have an iconic signature tower as a "new tallest". However, Phoenix shouldn't be disappointed--this looks to be pretty sleek and sophisticated architecture that will significantly enhance the urban core.

If the two condo towers on the east block will have 1,000 units, they will be pretty massive, as I counted about 36 or 37 stories on one of the towers in the renderings (taller than 44 Monroe, perhaps?). That's a lot of units...for comparison, a large new 39-story condo tower just topped out here in downtown Honolulu, with less than 400 units (www.capitolplace.com).

(FYI, that building also has many two and three-bedrooms, with most units between 650 and 1450 sq. ft., priced from about $400k to over $1M--about $625-825/s.f. That's Hawaii for you...and only 25 units remaining.)

[PHX NATIVE 929]

Don't count on Pier 1. They are not in expansion mode right now.

The challenge for RED will be that retailers know what works in metro Phoenix... large bix-box anchored centers.... Target or Wal-Mart plus other soft goods users such as Ross, Linens N Things, Old Navy, etc... Like it or not, this is a proven format that has continually WORKED.

Cityscape is a bit of an experiment (in Phoenix). It will take some brave retailers willing to take a risk. Make no mistake, this project is a risk for retailers. Fortunately, RED is a developer that knows what they are doing and having AJ's already in the bag is HUGE. It should convince some of the tenants that typically align themselves with grocery-anchored centers.

Some tenants I wouldn't be shocked to see land at Cityscape:

Office Max or Staples
Best Buy or Circuit City
Ace Hardware
Barnes, Borders, or Changing Hands
V's Barbershop
Payless Shoes
Victoria's Secret
Hi Health
Jamba Juice
Nail Salon
Workout Facility
Tanning Salon
Bath & Body Works
Sally Beauty Supply
T-Mobile
Hallmark
Chipotle
EB Game/Gamestop
Massage Envy
CPK

[tempedude]

I was wondering if there might be room for an arts(alternative) movie theater...something similar to the 'Valley Art' on Mill Ave. If not a theater like that at Cityscape...I think that the Jackson St. Entertainment District would be a perfect location to put one.

[kevininlb]

A nice summation of CityScape from the Republic. Think this pretty much says it all:

A big change is on the way
Oct. 24, 2007 12:00 AM

As downtown Phoenix has learned painfully over the last several decades, no single project has ever constitutes a "magic bullet."

No single development, however grand, can turn a sleepy downtown into a lively destination. Not by itself.

And so CityScape, a mixed-use development representing the largest private investment in downtown Phoenix in a generation, is not the endgame in the central city's revolution.

But what a catalyst it is. In the heart of downtown.

On Monday, CityScape's development partners, future tenants and city officials broke ground on the three-block project between First Avenue and Second Street and Washington and Jefferson streets.

Construction on the first phase of the $900 million development is under way. The first part of this project is planned to open in late 2009. The entire project is scheduled for completion in 2011.

Much attention has been lavished on the CityScape details: its restaurants; its two luxury boutique hotels (Twelve and Hotel Palomar) and its parklike, pedestrian-friendly features. And then there is the fact that the project will feature a grocery store, AJ's Fine Foods. Downtown has not seen a supermarket in many, many years.

The market for Class A office space downtown is hot right now. Rates are rising fast. And so the 600,000 square feet of first-class office space that will be provided by RED Development of Scottsdale and its partners looks like a wise investment. Wachovia's plans to locate its regional headquarters at CityScape is a strong statement.

Broadly speaking, downtown Phoenix is not lacking for tall office buildings. It is lacking an infusion of people living and playing downtown, which is why the supermarket, restaurants, residences and the two hotels that CityScape will bring so intrigues downtown watchers. They suggest a downtown marketplace that would operate 24/7.

That is the substantial difference that one project like CityScape makes for downtown. It doesn't change everything. But it changes a lot.