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  #81  
Old Posted Dec 28, 2020, 3:26 PM
Justin7 Justin7 is online now
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Originally Posted by Larry King View Post
I think Midwood is planning to spend 600k on the mural, makes 0 sense to turn it down.
Do you have a source for this? I have only read that they agreed to foot the bill to have the painter of the original mural create some kind of memorial. Wasn't even 100% sure it would be a mural.
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  #82  
Old Posted Dec 28, 2020, 4:14 PM
Larry King Larry King is offline
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Originally Posted by Justin7 View Post
Do you have a source for this? I have only read that they agreed to foot the bill to have the painter of the original mural create some kind of memorial. Wasn't even 100% sure it would be a mural.
https://www.inquirer.com/news/gloria...-20201224.html

Agreement for $655k public art replacement with mural arts
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  #83  
Old Posted Dec 29, 2020, 1:29 AM
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Jawnadelphia Jawnadelphia is offline
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What a PR nightmare ... this story went national, it was on the Today Show. No matter whatever promises the developer made they did not handle or notify enough people regarding the paint-over, it's as simple as that. No matter how much money they throw at things, in the court of public opinion they look like assholes.
https://www.today.com/news/mural-lat...d-over-t204691
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  #84  
Old Posted Dec 29, 2020, 2:21 PM
Justin7 Justin7 is online now
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Larry King View Post
https://www.inquirer.com/news/gloria...-20201224.html

Agreement for $655k public art replacement with mural arts
Thanks. Missed that number somehow.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Jawnadelphia View Post
What a PR nightmare ... this story went national, it was on the Today Show. No matter whatever promises the developer made they did not handle or notify enough people regarding the paint-over, it's as simple as that. No matter how much money they throw at things, in the court of public opinion they look like assholes.
https://www.today.com/news/mural-lat...d-over-t204691
I can't believe I'm defending Midwood (I am against this project), but to me this looks more like an artist having a tantrum. There was an agreement to fund a replacement and there's been no indication that Midwood agreed to give some prior notice before removing the piece.

Again, we are talking about a five year old mural.

It's certainly understandable that Ms. Casarez' widow is upset. Not because Midwood has been unreasonable, but simply because losing someone that way is extremely painful. I don't fault her at all for her reaction.
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  #85  
Old Posted Jan 3, 2021, 11:28 PM
3rd&Brown 3rd&Brown is offline
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Who in their right minds is going to allow murals on their buildings going forward if bs like this happens every time one needs to come down.

Mural Arts itself has stated most of these are place holders, there to disguise blight.
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  #86  
Old Posted Jan 6, 2021, 3:35 PM
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Groundhog Groundhog is offline
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So I recently spoke to a muralist I know who's worked with and butted heads against the mural arts program.

To quote my source:

Quote:
Legally, ownership (maintenance, decommissioning, intellectual rights etc.) of murals is sorted out ad nauseum in a Building Agreement between Mural Arts, the artist, and the building owner. Mural Arts' agreements are generally very generous to building owners, going as far as explicitly waiving the only intellectual protections artists have under law (called VARA rights). However, in exchange, their agreements typically require at least 30 days notice before taking down a mural, among other things. Mural Arts always does a ceremony and announcements before a mural is removed to manage community impact. My hunch here is that the developer started that conversation with Mural Arts, but never provided an accurate removal date. So it was a surprise that the mural was suddenly white washed. It was probably naive miscoordination on behalf of the developer.
So at the end of the day Midwood may have jumped the gun and removed the mural without proper notice that they were required to and it looks like the Mural Arts is jumping on that to get some political points. The head of the program loves media attention, looking like a champion for the community and is hoping they can get Midwood to fork over a bit more cash for a bigger tribute as an apology/unofficial fine for not properly giving enough notice.

There also may be something to people really loving that mural even though it hadn't been around for a long time, but...yeah.

Like all of you, I don't agree with the PR campaign being fought by mural arts over what looks like a miscommunication on timelines by the developer. It's likely Midwood's fault for not following the agreement, but that doesn't excuse the mural arts unprofessional tantrum here. If they end up getting a few more bucks for the replacement piece, good for them, but it definitely puts a bad taste in my mouth and, I'm sure, in the mouths of some LGTB allies and many potential future mural arts partners.
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  #87  
Old Posted Jan 7, 2021, 3:54 PM
Redddog Redddog is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Groundhog View Post
So I recently spoke to a muralist I know who's worked with and butted heads against the mural arts program.

To quote my source:



So at the end of the day Midwood may have jumped the gun and removed the mural without proper notice that they were required to and it looks like the Mural Arts is jumping on that to get some political points. The head of the program loves media attention, looking like a champion for the community and is hoping they can get Midwood to fork over a bit more cash for a bigger tribute as an apology/unofficial fine for not properly giving enough notice.

There also may be something to people really loving that mural even though it hadn't been around for a long time, but...yeah.

Like all of you, I don't agree with the PR campaign being fought by mural arts over what looks like a miscommunication on timelines by the developer. It's likely Midwood's fault for not following the agreement, but that doesn't excuse the mural arts unprofessional tantrum here. If they end up getting a few more bucks for the replacement piece, good for them, but it definitely puts a bad taste in my mouth and, I'm sure, in the mouths of some LGTB allies and many potential future mural arts partners.
Why would ANY building owner allow someone to put a mural on their property right now?

It's a shame. Philly has such an impressive mural arts program but for an owner, there is little reason, outside of altruism (not prevalent in that particular community), to allow someone to throw up a mural.

Cover up blight? Maybe draw some attention to increase value?
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  #88  
Old Posted Jan 7, 2021, 6:55 PM
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Originally Posted by Redddog View Post
Why would ANY building owner allow someone to put a mural on their property right now?

It's a shame. Philly has such an impressive mural arts program but for an owner, there is little reason, outside of altruism (not prevalent in that particular community), to allow someone to throw up a mural.

Cover up blight? Maybe draw some attention to increase value?
If you've got a blank wall or want some positive public brownie points you might. It's not too far off from why do people spend on high quality construction materials? Aesthetics. They get most of the rights, none of the costs and just need to make sure they manage the asset in line with the agreement. They didn't stick to what they were supposed to do and people got mad. It's understandable.

Agreed though, it does highlight the worst case scenario of what can happen if you screw up and I can see if pushing some not wanting to bother with the mural arts program program.
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  #89  
Old Posted Jan 11, 2021, 6:41 PM
nemesisinphilly nemesisinphilly is offline
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Mural Arts is pushing for a bill that imo would end their existence:

"The bill would require Mural Arts to review all construction plans that would affect its artistic creations. Anytime a building permit request is filed for an alteration to a muralized structure, the city’s Department of Licenses and Inspections would have to forward the application to Golden’s agency for review before issuing the permit.

Mural Arts’ review would be limited to a 45-day comment period by the end of which the agency would send recommendations to L&I. Gilmore Richardson said she expects to hold hearings about the bill in the spring."


https://whyy.org/articles/philly-has...-protect-them/
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  #90  
Old Posted Jan 11, 2021, 6:57 PM
Flyers2001 Flyers2001 is offline
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Originally Posted by nemesisinphilly View Post
Mural Arts is pushing for a bill that imo would end their existence:

"The bill would require Mural Arts to review all construction plans that would affect its artistic creations. Anytime a building permit request is filed for an alteration to a muralized structure, the city’s Department of Licenses and Inspections would have to forward the application to Golden’s agency for review before issuing the permit.

Mural Arts’ review would be limited to a 45-day comment period by the end of which the agency would send recommendations to L&I. Gilmore Richardson said she expects to hold hearings about the bill in the spring."


https://whyy.org/articles/philly-has...-protect-them/
Please deny this bill.
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  #91  
Old Posted Jan 11, 2021, 7:22 PM
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Who wrote this bill? 45 days, for what? But if this time allotment could run along side of the CDC and other issues it shouldn't hold anything up. I can't see L&I holding up/turning down a permit because of a recommendation from Mural Arts.
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  #92  
Old Posted Jan 11, 2021, 8:24 PM
nemesisinphilly nemesisinphilly is offline
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Originally Posted by City Wide View Post
Who wrote this bill? 45 days, for what? But if this time allotment could run along side of the CDC and other issues it shouldn't hold anything up. I can't see L&I holding up/turning down a permit because of a recommendation from Mural Arts.
Katherine Gilmore Richardson with Gym, Bass, Squilla, Quiñones Sánchez and Thomas sponsoring.

https://phila.legistar.com/Legislati...1-0A1D2C6D080C

It would apply to ALL projects involving muraled buildings. Not just ones that have to go through CDR.
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  #93  
Old Posted Jan 12, 2021, 2:27 PM
Justin7 Justin7 is online now
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BILL NO. 200615

Introduced November 12, 2020

Councilmembers Gilmore Richardson, Bass, Gym, Quiñones Sánchez, Squilla
and Thomas

Referred to the
Committee on Rules

AN ORDINANCE

Amending Chapter 14-1000 of The Philadelphia Code, entitled “Historic Preservation,” by
adding new sections to create a searchable database of mural arts in the City, adding notice
requirements, comment period, review and recommendations by Mural Arts Philadelphia, and
other related duties prior to issuance of a building permit for a mural arts building, all under
certain terms and conditions.

THE COUNCIL OF THE CITY OF PHILADELPHIA HEREBY ORDAINS:

SECTION 1. Chapter 14-1000 of The Philadelphia Code is amended by adding the following:

§ 14-1010. Mural Arts Designation and Preservation.

Mural Arts Philadelphia, in cooperation with the Office of Innovation and Technology (OIT),
shall create a searchable database of all existing mural arts in the City within one year of the
effective date of this section. The mural arts database shall be continually updated to include all
future mural arts in the City. Any property listed in the mural arts database shall be designated
as a building with mural arts. Mural Arts Philadelphia shall use the database to enhance
identification and preservation of murals in the City.

§ 14-1011. Regulation.

(1) Building Permit Required.
Unless a building permit is first obtained from L&I, no person shall alter or demolish a building
with mural arts, structure, site, or object, or alter, demolish, or construct any building, structure,
site, or object that would obscure a mural art on an adjacent or nearby building.


(2) Building Permit Application Referral.
Before L&I may issue such a building permit, L&I shall forward the building permit application
to Mural Arts Philadelphia to review.

(3) Demolition Notice.
When a person applies for a building permit involving demolition, L&I shall post, within seven
days, notice indicating that the owner has applied for a building permit to demolish the property;
that the property is a building with mural arts; that the application has been forwarded to Mural
Arts Philadelphia for review. The notice shall be posted on each street frontage of the premises
with which the notice is concerned and shall be clearly visible to the public. Posting of a notice
shall not be required in the event of an emergency that requires immediate action to protect the
health or safety of the public. No person shall remove the notice unless the building permit is
denied, or the owner notifies L&I that he or she will not demolish the property.

(4) Comment Review.
Mural Arts Philadelphia’s scope of review of applications for building permits for construction
or demolition, as defined herein, shall be limited to a 45-day period of comment. At the end of
the comment period Mural Arts Philadelphia shall issue its recommendation to L&I and make
the recommendation available to the public.
https://phila.legistar.com/Legislati...1-0A1D2C6D080C

I believe Mural Arts has been a great force for good in this city. The bold section (mine) alone would stop me from working with them. This would turn all murals into liabilities.
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  #94  
Old Posted Jan 12, 2021, 2:34 PM
Larry King Larry King is offline
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What's not clear is if mural arts comments are purely advisory? What's the point, to get the builder to negotiate with mural arts over the 45 day period?
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  #95  
Old Posted Jan 12, 2021, 2:55 PM
iamrobk iamrobk is online now
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Larry King View Post
What's not clear is if mural arts comments are purely advisory? What's the point, to get the builder to negotiate with mural arts over the 45 day period?
As I read it, this doesn't give L&I any additional grounds to grant/deny a building permit. (I don't think this directly answers your question, but hopefully it helps.)
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  #96  
Old Posted Jan 12, 2021, 4:45 PM
Redddog Redddog is offline
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Again, why the HAIL would anyone allow a mural on a building these days.

Talk about shooting a good thing to death.
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  #97  
Old Posted Jan 13, 2021, 4:42 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Justin7 View Post
https://phila.legistar.com/Legislati...1-0A1D2C6D080C

I believe Mural Arts has been a great force for good in this city. The bold section (mine) alone would stop me from working with them. This would turn all murals into liabilities.
Parkway, EZ Park and a couple of other big property owners are going to flip their lids over this one-- this basically devalues every vacant lot or parking lot with a mural facing it.

Edited to add: The bill was pocket-vetoed but is going to get re-introduced.

Last edited by Aaamazarite; Jan 13, 2021 at 9:05 PM.
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  #98  
Old Posted Jan 13, 2021, 6:21 PM
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summersm343 summersm343 is offline
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Yep. Bye Mural Arts program. This bill is your death sentence.
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  #99  
Old Posted Jan 13, 2021, 9:06 PM
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This is what happens when you get to big for your pants.

Great program but this bill is dumb.

Simple both sides need to just make an agreement and stick to it no going behind the back or breaking the contract if that happens just pay up and move on.
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  #100  
Old Posted Jan 14, 2021, 2:04 AM
eixample eixample is offline
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Maybe I am missing something but this sounds kind of toothless to be honest. Basically saying you have to get a permit to obstruct a mural, but you already need a permit to build anything in front of the mural or to demolish a building anyway. Mural Arts' only power is to give non-binding advice to L&I. You will need to get a permit to paint over a mural but if the only thing Mural Arts gets out of this is the ability to prevent spite white washings of murals, that's not a big deal to me.
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