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  #6201  
Old Posted Apr 12, 2018, 12:56 PM
beyeas beyeas is offline
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Originally Posted by Keith P. View Post
The elephant in the room is that we need a replacement for the VG hospital far more than either of those things.
This is true... however the big picture argument underlying all of this, in my opinion, is that we don't rationally plan out large infrastructure over a long term period. Instead, we punt everything along until numerous large scale needs become critical and we are faced with making choices that we shouldn't have to make. This is true no matter the flavour of government, and likely in large part due to the fact that it is easier to punt a problem onto the next government.

There most acute true "need" is a new VG. However, in a world where things are actually rationally and logically staged out, we shouldn't be talking about a need to make choices of whether we want a new hospital or a new stadium/gallery. A replacement for the VG, a performing arts venue, an upgraded gallery, and a sports stadium are all things that have been discussed in the public arena since I moved to Halifax. They have been known needs for decades. They could have been built into actual planning ages ago, and budgeted accordingly. And yet no government, PC, Lib or NDP staged out and triaged these, they punted them all. Meanwhile, provinces who had planned better received federal matching dollars.

On a separate but related note, I agree that by contrast to the Beaverbrook the AGNS does a poor job marketing itself. I think the AGNS has the potential to be just as well known and impactful, but the Beaverbrook outshines it when it comes to marketing itself. It is too bad, because I tire of the "Oh but the arts" and "Oh but the sports" arguments, when in fact both have societal and cultural value and should be publicly encouraged.

Last edited by beyeas; Apr 12, 2018 at 10:42 PM. Reason: Typo
     
     
  #6202  
Old Posted Apr 12, 2018, 9:36 PM
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Originally Posted by beyeas View Post
This is true no matter the flavour of government, and likely in large part due to the fact that it is easier to punt a problem onto the government.
There is the punting aspect but there is also "sexiness" aspect. Cutting the ribbon on a desperately-needed healthcare facility gets a government a lot more credit than gradually performing maintenance in the background. Many of the crises happen because of decades of deferred maintenance.

NS also has the regional jealousy issue that makes it politically difficult to invest too much in one area even if that's the only reasonable course of action (because half of all the people live there and that place is in the middle of the province). In fact in NS it is often politically easiest to counterintuitively invest more in the places that are doing the worst, which probably aren't the places where you can get the biggest economic bang for your investment buck.

HRM does better with this than the province with their capital priority lists, although they are far from perfect. I wonder how much of this has to do with the lack of party politics.
     
     
  #6203  
Old Posted Apr 12, 2018, 10:43 PM
kwikkyd kwikkyd is offline
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Originally Posted by ILoveHalifax View Post
A CFL team/stadium is not just for the 25,000 who attend in person but the rest of the city who watches on TV, the involvement of players in local civic/social activities, and the great number across the country and USA who participate via the TV and media

I am not knocking the AGNS but the numbers just don't compare
SOLUTION- Build the Gallery in the stadium
     
     
  #6204  
Old Posted Apr 13, 2018, 12:09 AM
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Originally Posted by Keith P. View Post
The elephant in the room is that we need a replacement for the VG hospital far more than either of those things.
The VG “replacement” was announced two years ago. Government made the decision to invest in multiple projects rather than erect one shiny new building and all of those projects are proceeding pretty much as planned (including new outpatient buildings at the Infirmary site and Bayers Lake, and major expansions at the Infirmary, DGH and Hants hospitals).

Ottawa earmarked this new pot of infrastructure money for five specific purposes. Health care was not among them, though I understand the province tried to make the case to fit it under categories like social infrastructure or green infrastructure. There is also nothing there for football stadiums, hockey arenas or any other sports facilities.
     
     
  #6205  
Old Posted Apr 13, 2018, 12:26 AM
elly63 elly63 is offline
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Halifax CFL stadium still out of site
FRANCIS CAMPBELL The Chronicle Herald April 12, 2018

The chains don’t appear to be moving forward on a proposed stadium in the Halifax area that could accommodate a Canadian Football League team.

“There is no real update at this point,” Anthony LeBlanc, one of the proponents of Maritime Football Ltd., that hopes to bid for a 10th league franchise, said of a stadium site selection.

“We were in town last week with our team of real estate consultants as well as our lead architect visiting a number of sites in the region. We do hope to have a site selected in the next month.”

LeBlanc, the former president and part owner of the Arizona Coyotes of the National Hockey League, and his two business partners who front Maritime Football Ltd., are trying to secure a conditional CFL franchise with the long-range goal of fielding a team in three or four years time.

First things first. A team needs a stadium and LeBlanc has estimated that a 25,000-seater would be required, probably costing in excess of $200 million.

LeBlanc has said in the past that potential stadium sites include land at Dartmouth Crossing, a property behind the Kent store in the Bayers Lake business park, a Bedford location and a site near the Halifax airport.

Shannon Park had been suggested in the past but the former military complex now owned by Crown corporation Canada Lands appears to have been dropped as a potential site.

And if and when a site is determined, who would pay for such a stadium?

LeBlanc has said that a public-private entity usually owns and operates the facility.

Mike Savage, the mayor of Halifax Regional Municipality, has said that a stadium should be built and operated along the lines of the TD Stadium in Ottawa, home to the CFL Redblacks. A local consortium rebuilt an aging stadium there and redeveloped the surrounding Lansdowne Park, adding considerable commercial and retail space.

“I don’t think there is much appetite on council for something that we have to sink a lot of capital dollars into right up front,” Savage said recently. “We need to be a little bit more creative than that.”

That creativity might look a lot like the Halifax Convention Centre plan that proposes to offset the municipality’s portion of the convention centre cost with future tax dollars that will be accrued from the Nova Centre, the $500-million complex that houses the convention centre.

The municipality and the province agreed to evenly share costs for the convention centre. With the Nova Centre office tower sitting at only 30 per cent occupancy, the property tax accrual HRM had been counting on from Nova Centre will not reach projections. Consequently, the municipality could have to come up with $18 million over the next decade to pay its convention centre bill.

On Tuesday, regional council approved a payment of $301,500 for its share of convention centre costs for the 2016-17 period. The payment will come out of the projected $12.1-million contingency reserve surplus and not affect the tax rate.

Still, those finances do not bode well for the municipality using a similar payment arrangement for its share of a new stadium.

“We haven’t got any proposal to fund a stadium,” Savage said after Tuesday’s council meeting when asked if the city would enter into a similar future tax dollar plan to pay for a stadium.

“You can’t say it makes sense or doesn’t make sense based on one project. In Ottawa, it seems to make sense. They funded their stadium that way. In some projects, it makes sense and in some it doesn’t. I think the key is to learn from what you’ve done, through your experience, and look at others.”

Each project is different, the mayor said.

“It depends on the project, it depends on cost, it depends on the business case. It would be crazy to say yes or no at this point. It would make no sense whatsoever to rule it out or rule it in.”

Savage said the municipality doesn’t have a plan for a stadium, “so we would have to wait and see what that looks like before we know what any cost might be.”

The group that wants to bring the CFL to Halifax has engaged Deloitte in Halifax to finalize an economic impact analysis that would include a potential stadium.
     
     
  #6206  
Old Posted Apr 13, 2018, 12:54 AM
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Originally Posted by ns_kid View Post
The VG “replacement” was announced two years ago. Government made the decision to invest in multiple projects rather than erect one shiny new building and all of those projects are proceeding pretty much as planned (including new outpatient buildings at the Infirmary site and Bayers Lake, and major expansions at the Infirmary, DGH and Hants hospitals).

Ottawa earmarked this new pot of infrastructure money for five specific purposes. Health care was not among them, though I understand the province tried to make the case to fit it under categories like social infrastructure or green infrastructure. There is also nothing there for football stadiums, hockey arenas or any other sports facilities.
All of which simply and clearly shows how foolhardy it is to depend upon govt to provide for the basic needs of the populace and not be lured to waste funds of frills that cater to special interests.
     
     
  #6207  
Old Posted Apr 16, 2018, 2:15 AM
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Exclusive: Poll shows people in Halifax open to using municipal taxes to pay for CFL stadium
The polling done for StarMetro by MQO Research also says the best outdoor stadium size is between 15,000 and 25,000 seats.
Philip Croucher StarMetro Halifax April 15, 2018

HALIFAX—There is a clear appetite for spending municipal tax dollars to help fund a new outdoor stadium for Halifax.

That’s one of the findings of a new survey conducted exclusively for StarMetro by the polling firm MQO Research.

Between March 26 and April 2, 500 people in HRM were asked the following question: “To what extent, if at all, are you in favour of the Halifax Regional Municipality contributing taxpayers’ dollars, either directly or through tax breaks, to the building of a new outdoor stadium in the municipality.”

In total, 42 per cent of respondents said they were either “very favourable” or “favourable” to the idea. Forty-one per cent said they were either unfavourable or very unfavourable.

Another 15 per cent were neither favourable nor unfavourable, with another 2 per cent unsure.

The most popular of the six possible answers was favourable, at 27 per cent.



“I honestly thought it would be a much lower level of interest,” said Rick Emberley of MQO Research.

“There are a lot of people that want a stadium but don’t agree with the idea of it being funded in part, or in whole, in any measure or ways, with taxpayer money. But let’s face it: In a marketplace of this size, it will never happen without some sort of financial incentive of financial support of government.”

The CFL, and a possible stadium for Halifax, are top-of-mind with an ownership group now established and looking to bring a team here.

League commissioner Randy Ambrosie even wrapped up a 10-city CFL road trip in Halifax in February to talk about a possible expansion and how the league would love to one day be a coast-to-coast entity.

To do that, they would need Halifax.

When you dig into the MQO Research polling numbers more closely, you get a clearer picture of who supports funding a stadium with the help of taxpayer dollars.



Looking at people between the ages of 18 and 54, the very favourable or favourable total reaches 47 per cent. In that same age bracket, 37 per cent say they are unfavourable or very unfavourable to the idea.

For the 55-plus age group, the very favourable or favourable number drops to 33 per cent, and the unfavourable or very unfavourable figure jumps to 48 per cent.

Emberley thinks the low support from the 55-plus group is partly due to them having the impression that private or commercial projects get more than their fair share of government funding.

“The second piece is they are probably the least likely demographic to take advantage of such a facility,” he continued.

There has been plenty of debate within the city over different levels of government supporting large, private-sector projects.

The most notable is the Nova Centre, which includes the Halifax Convention Centre. Last week regional council learned that Halifax was expected to lose millions in the next 10 years on its downtown convention centre.

“Even though the economic impacts of a convention centre might far exceed a stadium over a sports team or two here, the reality is more local people identify with a stadium … compared with never stepping inside a convention centre,” Emberley said.



The poll by MQO Research also asked respondents what size such a stadium should be if built. The runaway winner — at 40 per cent — was between 15,000 and 25,000 seats.

The other options were up to 15,000 seats or more than 25,000 seats. Both those suggestions received less than 15 per cent support.

“I know nothing of the economics to produce a creature like this,” Emberley said.

“But I think the argument would be it’s got to be the right size ... and right size means it can’t be built just for a football team. It has to properly accommodate concerts, other sporting events and so on.”

The polling firm also asked about possible stadium locations. Shannon Park was top choice at 27 per cent, followed by Dartmouth Crossing at 22 per cent and Bayers Lake at 14 per cent.

“The Shannon Park thing — not only is it central, it’s also very accessible,” Emberley explained.

“Bayers Lake, it’s a nightmare to get around out there. Imagine what it would be like if you dropped a 20,000-seat stadium out there. You would have to reconfigure the entire road network.”

The sample size of 500 people results in a margin of error, for a population of this size, of plus or minus 4.4 percentage points, 19 times out of 20.
     
     
  #6208  
Old Posted Apr 16, 2018, 4:00 AM
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In an era of stadia being built close to or in a city core, putting a Halifax stadium out in Shannon Park or Dartmouth Crossing seems like a choice from another era. No way would people be able to walk to a game there. You need a car. Getting there by transit from Halifax would be a nightmare.
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  #6209  
Old Posted Apr 16, 2018, 12:24 PM
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An even split of favorable vs unfavorable answers makes me wonder where they got the headline. Fake news?
     
     
  #6210  
Old Posted Apr 16, 2018, 3:02 PM
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Originally Posted by Keith P. View Post
An even split of favorable vs unfavorable answers makes me wonder where they got the headline. Fake news?
Since the majority (however slight) answered favourable would it be truthful if the headline said "Exclusive: Poll shows people in Halifax not open to using municipal taxes to pay for CFL stadium.

That would definitely not be correct hence no "fake news"
     
     
  #6211  
Old Posted Apr 16, 2018, 3:05 PM
elly63 elly63 is offline
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Originally Posted by isaidso View Post
In an era of stadia being built close to or in a city core, putting a Halifax stadium out in Shannon Park or Dartmouth Crossing seems like a choice from another era. No way would people be able to walk to a game there. You need a car. Getting there by transit from Halifax would be a nightmare.
Seriously, aside from a huge city with a subway does anyone walk anywhere anymore? I consider myself the world's oldest millennial and I notice wherever I go in the Maritimes there ain't too much walking or biking (edit).

Last edited by elly63; Apr 16, 2018 at 4:39 PM.
     
     
  #6212  
Old Posted Apr 16, 2018, 3:37 PM
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Baking???

I know you meant biking.

Biking is not popular around here because:
- hills
- cities are not dense/long distances
- horrible climate (rain/sleet/snow)
- wind!!!
- lack of biking infrastructure (least important)

Did I mention hills???
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  #6213  
Old Posted Apr 16, 2018, 3:44 PM
IanWatson IanWatson is offline
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Originally Posted by elly63 View Post
Since the majority (however slight) answered favourable would it be truthful if the headline said "Exclusive: Poll shows people in Halifax not open to using municipal taxes to pay for CFL stadium.

That would definitely not be correct hence no "fake news"
An honest headline would be, "Exclusive: Poll shows people in Halifax divided on using municipal taxes to pay for CFL stadium."
     
     
  #6214  
Old Posted Apr 16, 2018, 3:58 PM
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I think there's good information in the article, though perhaps it could have been more aptly titled "People in Halifax are split on using municipal funds to pay for CFL stadium"... The title as it stands isn't non-factual, but it is a little slanted towards the pro-side of things.

That being said, I do find the preferred locations to be interesting with Shannon Park and DC taking the top two spots, and Central Halifax being only 8%, less than "Don't know" or "None of the above"...

Regarding transit, I think it would be fine as they could institute dedicated transit on gamedays, with specified "park and ride" locations as well, like they do in other cities.

And FWIW, I think there is a lot of truth to MonctonRad's assertions above...
     
     
  #6215  
Old Posted Apr 16, 2018, 4:16 PM
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Originally Posted by OldDartmouthMark View Post
That being said, I do find the preferred locations to be interesting with Shannon Park and DC taking the top two spots, and Central Halifax being only 8%, less than "Don't know" or "None of the above"...
I'd like to know the method for their polling. Calling only landlines or doing online-only will give different results. AFAIK, MQO gets something like 30% or 40% of their respondents via cellphone, meaning the other 60% or 70% is landline...it's no wonder respondents would be ok with suburban locations only easily accessible by car.

And yes, nobody bikes in the Maritimes because 1) Everything is hills and, 2) There's no infrastructure because everything is hills.
     
     
  #6216  
Old Posted Apr 16, 2018, 4:34 PM
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An even split of favorable vs unfavorable answers makes me wonder where they got the headline. Fake news?
Exactly... and are those 500 individuals qualified to direct the number of seats that would be optimal for our market?
     
     
  #6217  
Old Posted Apr 16, 2018, 4:37 PM
eastcoastal eastcoastal is offline
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Originally Posted by elly63 View Post
Since the majority (however slight) answered favourable would it be truthful if the headline said "Exclusive: Poll shows people in Halifax not open to using municipal taxes to pay for CFL stadium.

That would definitely not be correct hence no "fake news"
I don't think "majority" means what you think it means... as in a number that is greater than half of the total.
     
     
  #6218  
Old Posted Apr 16, 2018, 4:38 PM
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Seriously, aside from a huge city with a subway does anyone walk anywhere anymore? I consider myself the world's oldest millennial and I notice wherever I go in the Maritimes there ain't too much walking or baking.
Anyone? Yes.

I do. I walk to work and walk to get groceries. I have a car, and do use it... just not very frequently. When I lived in Calgary, I walked, then took transit, to get to Flames games.
     
     
  #6219  
Old Posted Apr 16, 2018, 4:55 PM
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Originally Posted by eastcoastal View Post
Anyone? Yes.

I do. I walk to work and walk to get groceries. I have a car, and do use it... just not very frequently.
Very few people walk and bike, the reason I said that is because I am a walker and a biker and notice it.

Although I usually agree with MonctonRad, I don't agree with many of his reasons on this subject. I don't find too many hills at all aside from a big one I have on my way to work. I am an old and big guy (270 lbs) and yet I can go up this big hill no problem and yet I see most people half my age and size have to walk their bike up the hill.

I just think most people don't want to walk or bike and maybe are embarrassed to do it. I'm not sure what the reason is but I don't think the reasons detailed are correct, I don't think people are looking for excuses.

Part of the reason may be that, relatively speaking, we don't have much traffic so generally driving isn't frustrating.

I've lived in all three provinces and while there are some I've never found the granola eating lifestyle too common here. People have too much common sense.
     
     
  #6220  
Old Posted Apr 16, 2018, 5:02 PM
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Originally Posted by eastcoastal View Post
I don't think "majority" means what you think it means... as in a number that is greater than half of the total.
Actually it does mean what I thought but definitionally it means what you thought as well.

ma·jor·i·ty
noun: majority; plural noun: majorities
1. the greater number.
"in the majority of cases all will go smoothly"

majority
1 obsolete : the quality or state of being greater
3 a : a number or percentage equaling more than half of a total
     
     
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