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  #61  
Old Posted Nov 18, 2010, 3:37 PM
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China Leads World In High-Speed Rail Tracks


http://www.npr.org/2010/11/16/131351...ed-rail-tracks

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China already has thousands of miles of railroads — including the world's longest network of high-speed rail, which is 4,000 miles long. That total is set to double within two years, giving China more high-speed rail tracks than the rest of the world put together.

NPR's Rob Gifford discovered it is opening up central China like never before.

ROB GIFFORD: Ten years ago, Geng Zengmin was a peasant working in a field. Today, he's a pet food salesman travelling at 160 miles per hour on a shiny new train heading west from Shanghai.�

Mr. GENG ZENGMIN (Pet Food Salesman): (Foreign language spoken)

GIFFORD: We could not have believed this was possible even 10 years ago, says Geng. But time is money now, he says, and this high-speed railroad makes everything so much easier.

It's hard to know which is more surprising: that Chinese peasants are becoming pet food salesman, or that a journey that used to take up to 10 hours to the inland city of Hefei can now be completed in two.

(Soundbite of factory machinery)

GIFFORD: The sound of foreign factories like this one are familiar on the coast, but can now be heard here in Hefei, the capital of Anhui province, once known as the Appalachia of China. And quite simply, these factories are here because of the introduction of high-speed rail, says Fan Jiang, the U.S.-educated CEO of AllFine, a company making batteries for electric cars. It's one of many companies moving to inland China. Fan Jiang, too, repeats the modern Chinese mantra.

Mr. FAN JIANG (CEO, AllFine): Time is money. So I think the economic value will be huge. You know, in the past, the people has to set factory in Shanghai, but because of the speed, that they could set factory here and deliver the goods in time.

GIFFORD: Fan pays his workers half what he'd have to in Shanghai, between $150 and $300 U.S. dollars a month, and he receives tax breaks and a rent-free factory built for him by the local government. He says Hefei is now like an East Coast city, but with the costs of a city in Central China, often 50 percent lower.

Unidentified Woman: (Foreign language spoken)

GIFFORD: Back on the train heading West, the pet food salesmen and everyone else are enjoying the ride two hours further inland to Wuhan, a grimy industrial city on the Yangtze River that few Westerners have ever heard of, but which boasts a population of about 10 million people. Of those, about 8,000 are now foreigners, including French people making cars, German people building power plants, and Americans playing ukuleles.

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  #62  
Old Posted Nov 18, 2010, 4:50 PM
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As America continues its game of high-speed rail hot potato, China has quietly finished laying the tracks for the longest bullet line in the world. Spanning more than 800 miles, the line will link the Chinese capital of Beijing with Shanghai, an economic hub on the east. Travel between the two cities will drop to four hours—down from 10—when train service begins in 2012.

As the BBC points out, five years ago China had no high-speed rail track to speak of. Today, at roughly 4,000 miles, China’s bullet train network is already the world’s most extensive. That total is set to double within two years, according to the World Bank, which would give China more high-speed mileage than the rest of the globe combined.
http://www.infrastructurist.com/2010...t-bullet-line/
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  #63  
Old Posted Dec 9, 2010, 8:35 AM
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From Shanghai to Nanjing in less than two hours...
because of the High Speed Rail
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  #64  
Old Posted Jan 17, 2011, 2:49 AM
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The Backlash Is Brewing Against Chinese High-Speed Rail: Here's Why It's In Trouble


Jan. 14, 2011

By Patrick Chovanec



Read More: http://www.businessinsider.com/china...#ixzz1BFyy1djE

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Currently, China’s conventional rail system is stretched to capacity carrying two commodities: coal and people. And as Damien Ma, an analyst at the Eurasia Group, notes in a post today at The Atlantic, passengers takes politically priority over coal, requiring much of the nation’s coal to be transported by truck, leading to monumental traffic jams on China’s roads (including the famous 10-day, 62-mile backup outside of Beijing last August, which attracted worldwide attention and mainly consisted of coal trucks).

The theory is that building a national high-speed rail network will put all that passenger traffic on “the fast track,” as it were, and open up capacity on the existing rail network to move not only more coal but also other types of goods, thus relieving the road backups and boosting both productivity and regional development.

The problem is that high-speed rail is expensive both to build and to operate, requiring high ticket prices to break even. The bulk of the long-distance passenger traffic, especially during the peak holiday periods, is migrant workers for whom the opportunity cost of time is relatively low. Even if they could afford a high-speed train ticket — which is doubtful given their limited incomes — they would probably prefer to conserve their cash and take a slower, cheaper train. If that proves true, the new high-speed lines will only incur losses while providing little or no relief to the existing transportation network.

Unfortunately, that seems to be precisely the situation that’s shaping up this Chinese New Year (the year’s peak travel season), according to an article in this Wednesday’s China Daily. The article reports that some 5,149km of high-speed track were put into service last year, making the network stretch to 8,358km, the world’s longest … But the opening of more fast train services has led to fewer regular trains being available for budget-conscious passengers.

China Daily notes that a new luxury sleeper service between Shanghai and Chengdu costs an astonishing US$352 (easily comparable — and possibly more expensive than — an air ticket). But many travelers cannot afford the tickets, causing a waste of transport capacity.

.....
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  #65  
Old Posted Jan 17, 2011, 3:12 AM
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No freaking way!! I thought everyone said high-speed rail was going to be China's version of the Interstate Highway System. Cheap, to the point, effective! Guess not huh?! Looks like "they" were wrong, AGAIN. Man, this is so crazy! No one even saw this one coming!


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The Backlash Is Brewing Against Chinese High-Speed Rail: Here's Why It's In Trouble
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  #66  
Old Posted Jan 17, 2011, 4:34 AM
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^ The Chinese certainly know how to build High-Speed Rail (like everything else).

But can they run and maintain it?
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  #67  
Old Posted Jan 17, 2011, 5:10 AM
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^ The Chinese certainly know how to build High-Speed Rail (like everything else).
Except for the little problem that they (and everyone on this forum) actually believe money grows on trees. If you have unlimited bank loans, yes, you can pretty much do anything. The real fallout of all this is still coming.

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But can they run and maintain it?
Anyone can do that. The question is if it's effective or not as a form of transportation. Well, at least you don't have to be rich to use the Interstate.
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  #68  
Old Posted Jan 17, 2011, 7:32 AM
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Except for the little problem that they (and everyone on this forum) actually believe money grows on trees. If you have unlimited bank loans, yes, you can pretty much do anything. The real fallout of all this is still coming.

Anyone can do that. The question is if it's effective or not as a form of transportation. Well, at least you don't have to be rich to use the Interstate.
HSR isn't a competitor for Interstates. Besides, in China you'd have to be rich to use the Interstates (at least in the manner most Americans use them, as in NOT by bus) because you'd have to own a car.

Besides, anyone at all familiar with Spring Festival (aka Chinese New Year) in China knows that there's ALWAYS a transportation uproar for Spring Festival - the migration has its own name "chunyun". There are always accusations of price gouging and problems. Last year or the year before there were huge delays because of snow. I don't think it's reasonable to judge the overall effectiveness of a system based on its peak demand peformance.

The point of the article to take away shouldn't be that China is doomed to fail with HSR, but that China should be doing more to move jobs to where people are by providing a better overall intermodal network. I don't know enough about China's overall intermodal network to speak to that, but I think China is working on that, too. They certainly want to bring jobs into the interior. Their water shipping systems are pretty sophisticated, I'd imagine their rail shipping systems will eventually catch up. When Chicago was becoming the rail capital of North America in the 1920s, the U.S. population was no more than about 10% of China's current population, with a rate of urbanization similar to where China is now. China has a lot of catching up to do, and I don't think it should surprise anyone that sometimes one aspect or another gets ahead of or behind the general pace of change.

HSR continues to be successful in parts of Europe and in Japan. Parts of China are near Japanese densities, and all of eastern China is comparable in density with Western Europe. Whether or not HSR will be sustainable in China is not really much of a question in my opinion. Especially if oil starts to climb in cost, the economies of all electric rail versus buses or air travel will only increase as long as the majority of China's electricity comes from non-oil sources.
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  #69  
Old Posted Jan 17, 2011, 8:36 AM
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Besides, anyone at all familiar with Spring Festival (aka Chinese New Year) in China knows that there's ALWAYS a transportation uproar for Spring Festival - the migration has its own name "chunyun". There are always accusations of price gouging and problems. Last year or the year before there were huge delays because of snow. I don't think it's reasonable to judge the overall effectiveness of a system based on its peak demand peformance.
All about money. If the system is not running at peak performance they can't pay the bills. Japan had to bail out their high-speed rail system in the 80s to the tune of 400 billion dollars. Today, for China, I would think that could be a trillion or more.

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The point of the article to take away shouldn't be that China is doomed to fail with HSR, but that China should be doing more to move jobs to where people are by providing a better overall intermodal network. I don't know enough about China's overall intermodal network to speak to that, but I think China is working on that, too. They certainly want to bring jobs into the interior. Their water shipping systems are pretty sophisticated, I'd imagine their rail shipping systems will eventually catch up. When Chicago was becoming the rail capital of North America in the 1920s, the U.S. population was no more than about 10% of China's current population, with a rate of urbanization similar to where China is now. China has a lot of catching up to do, and I don't think it should surprise anyone that sometimes one aspect or another gets ahead of or behind the general pace of change.
You don't do that through high-speed rail, which is much too expensive. HSR is luxury transportation. The reason why the Chinese government went with it is mindboggling when looking at the scale of the system, and the effects of them doing so will be equally mindboggling.
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  #70  
Old Posted Jan 17, 2011, 10:41 AM
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Originally Posted by M II A II R II K View Post
The Backlash Is Brewing Against Chinese High-Speed Rail: Here's Why It's In Trouble


Jan. 14, 2011

By Patrick Chovanec



Read More: http://www.businessinsider.com/china...#ixzz1BFyy1djE
Their quoting of the China Daily article is incredibly misleading (as usual for Western media when reporting about China). Yes, the MAXIMUM (i.e VIP ticket) for the train from Shanghai to Chengdu is about ¥2300 (~$350). But what they don't tell you is that you can get a soft seat ticket on the same train for only ¥500 (~$80), or a standard soft sleeper ticket on the same train for ¥1000 (~$160). The cheapest airfare on the route that I can find is ~¥1260, so the high speed overnight train is cheaper, plus you don't have to pay for a hotel for that night - you leave Shanghai in the evening, and in the morning you're in Chengdu!

The misleading way they're reporting it, it'd be the equivalent of complaining about the price of an airplane ticket on a certain route but only telling you the business class price.
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  #71  
Old Posted Jan 17, 2011, 3:26 PM
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Their quoting of the China Daily article is incredibly misleading (as usual for Western media when reporting about China). Yes, the MAXIMUM (i.e VIP ticket) for the train from Shanghai to Chengdu is about ¥2300 (~$350). But what they don't tell you is that you can get a soft seat ticket on the same train for only ¥500 (~$80), or a standard soft sleeper ticket on the same train for ¥1000 (~$160). The cheapest airfare on the route that I can find is ~¥1260, so the high speed overnight train is cheaper, plus you don't have to pay for a hotel for that night - you leave Shanghai in the evening, and in the morning you're in Chengdu!

The misleading way they're reporting it, it'd be the equivalent of complaining about the price of an airplane ticket on a certain route but only telling you the business class price.
I may be way off here, so please correct me if I'm mistaken, but according to your figures a return journey for a family of three is $480. Considering the average monthly wage for workers is only about ¥3292 or $499, I think it's fair to suggest the tickets are a bit out of reach for the average corporate servant. However, I suppose there are people out there, and you may well be one of them, that feel that spending 8% of their yearly income on train tickets is somewhat of a bargain.

http://finance.sina.com.cn/china/dfj...06041104.shtml
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  #72  
Old Posted Jan 17, 2011, 3:59 PM
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It's also investing in the future for very long term.
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  #73  
Old Posted Jan 17, 2011, 4:20 PM
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It's also investing in the future for very long term.
Yes, and surely the vast majority of Chinese support that assertion. Nevertheless, it would appear that the operator needs to make some adjustments to its fare structure in order to appeal to a larger demographic.
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  #74  
Old Posted Jan 17, 2011, 4:23 PM
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or a standard soft sleeper ticket on the same train for ¥1000 (~$160). The cheapest airfare on the route that I can find is ~¥1260, so the high speed overnight train is cheaper, plus you don't have to pay for a hotel for that night - you leave Shanghai in the evening, and in the morning you're in Chengdu!
I recently paid ¥810 for a flight from SHA to CTU and sometimes you can even get airfares for as low as ¥550 on that route. Not only is that cheaper than the train fare, but it just takes you 3 hours to get there and with a lot more comfort (no offense, but sharing a sleeping cabin with 3 Chinese for 16 hours is a torture given the fact just how noisy Chinese love to be when travelling.)

I once took the overnight train from Shanghai to Beijing, which takes only 10.5 hours. Never again I can tell you.

Rail travel is fine for all destinations that require no more than a 4-hour ride, but for everything above that the plane is by far the better option.
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  #75  
Old Posted Jan 17, 2011, 4:25 PM
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The high speed rail could put more of an emphasis on short range rapid transit, and maybe introduce some kind of rewards or points program to get discounts which can also be accumulated through purchasing other things and not just train tickets.
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  #76  
Old Posted Jan 17, 2011, 5:06 PM
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No freaking way!! I thought everyone said high-speed rail was going to be China's version of the Interstate Highway System. Cheap, to the point, effective! Guess not huh?! Looks like "they" were wrong, AGAIN. Man, this is so crazy! No one even saw this one coming!

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  #77  
Old Posted Jan 17, 2011, 5:12 PM
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Obvious troll is obvious...
Oh right, blame the truth. That's real smart.
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  #78  
Old Posted Jan 17, 2011, 8:23 PM
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Here's some truth for you: keep trolling and you wil be banned.
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  #79  
Old Posted Jan 17, 2011, 10:39 PM
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All about money. If the system is not running at peak performance they can't pay the bills. Japan had to bail out their high-speed rail system in the 80s to the tune of 400 billion dollars. Today, for China, I would think that could be a trillion or more.
Any piece of infrastructure which is constantly at peak performance is a failure, not a success. Highways and airports are only designed to be congested at certain times, and even then there are complaints. So you can't expect the several line segments of high speed rail scattered across China (no network exists as of yet) to be constantly full, do you?

China's highways are constantly and outrageously bailed out by their own users (see below), yet you're not complaining about that. Besides, China's railway trackage is still less than 40% of the US figure (not counting the 4:1 population difference), so there is a long, long, long way to go before there is overinvestment.

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You don't do that through high-speed rail, which is much too expensive. HSR is luxury transportation. The reason why the Chinese government went with it is mindboggling when looking at the scale of the system, and the effects of them doing so will be equally mindboggling.
If you've ever been to China outside Beijing and Shanghai, you'll know what you wrote is wrong. All expressways are tolled, and even the slower "national" and "provincial" roads have toll booths at least every hour. China has more than two-thirds of the world's tolled roads. Then there are corrupt and closed-minded officials who make life hard for anyone doing business who is not close to them. The result is that often goods made in Guangdong or Zhejiang are much cheaper in North Dakota than in the inland parts of their own country.

The primary purpose of high speed rail is not luxury transportation. It's to release desperately needed capacity for the regular lines for freight trains, where the chances for corrupt local officials to take extras are lower. The implied alternative, building freight-only express railways, will not be very cheaper than building passenger-only express railways. The cost of shipping goods *as well as* people will fall dramatically. Hopefully this will force local officials to do away with the pesky toll booths.

If you can criticise the Chinese government for overbuilding, a better argument can be made for the scores of new regional airports (most of which were pork barrel projects for influential Party officials) recently opened and under construction. Some such airports have actually led to city insolvencies and will probably lead to many more.
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  #80  
Old Posted Jan 17, 2011, 10:45 PM
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Originally Posted by R@ptor View Post
I recently paid ¥810 for a flight from SHA to CTU and sometimes you can even get airfares for as low as ¥550 on that route. Not only is that cheaper than the train fare, but it just takes you 3 hours to get there and with a lot more comfort (no offense, but sharing a sleeping cabin with 3 Chinese for 16 hours is a torture given the fact just how noisy Chinese love to be when travelling.)

I once took the overnight train from Shanghai to Beijing, which takes only 10.5 hours. Never again I can tell you.

Rail travel is fine for all destinations that require no more than a 4-hour ride, but for everything above that the plane is by far the better option.

My point is, the high speed train is at least competitive with airfare, often much cheaper than airfare. Since trains are better long term for the environment (given that they can be powered by non fossil-fuel based electricity) a good HSR network that can replace the plane is a worthwhile investment.

Ultimately, for those that can't afford the HSR tickets, there are still the slower trains available. I don't expect them to be phased out any time soon, especially given that the government is also building dedicated coal lines on the important coal routes.

As for me personally, if I've got a choice of flying or taking the train, unless the train is a 20 hour or more journey, I'll probably take the train every time. I enjoyed taking the sleeper trains the few times I've been on them, and I'd certainly do it again.
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