Pseudo-Downtowns

[MolsonExport]

Since Canada has a fast growing urban/suburban population and since we are relatively bereft of European-style old city centres, can we plan for real downtown-style neighborhoods, or are we condemned to the car-centric pseudo-downtowns that have seemingly flourished (if that word can be used in this fashion) in Canada?

[MonkeyRonin]

Originally Posted by hipster duck

Whitby has an actual downtown, albeit small.

Right, I meant to say Pickering! I always get those two mixed up.

[manny_santos]

Originally Posted by Acajack

I am not a big fan of pedestrian bridges or underpasses to cross arterial roads. In my experience they're often little-used and can feel isolated and desolate. Women in particular don't generally feel safe using them when it's dark.

I don't mind them in some circumstances, particularly crossing major thoroughfares where there can be very long waits for pedestrians to be able to cross. For example, Lougheed Highway in Port Coquitlam has one at Shaughessy Street, which is used to access a Rapibus stop.

We have several of them in New Westminster along McBride Blvd, allowing for easier access to Queen's Park. I actually wouldn't mind seeing the one that connects Sapperton Skytrain station with the area around Royal Columbian Hospital extended east over the railway tracks to improve access to the industrial area to the east (which includes a craft brewery).

[someone123]

There are the pseudo-downtowns around bridges or transportation hubs too.

In Quebec City, Ste-Foy fits into this category. Maybe Longueuil. In Vancouver there is Park Royal although it's pretty minor in the scheme of the metro area. In Halifax there are the Wyse Road and the Young Street areas which were pretty underwhelming but are now getting some of the biggest development proposals in the metro area.

[Doady]

Originally Posted by MonkeyRonin

What makes Etobicoke City Centre more "downtown-like" than North York's? There's just kind of...nothing there. It's a similar linear high-rise set up but smaller and without the retail density or civic centre component (though that's on the way).

It's not really a downtown because it's not an independent municipality, but NYCC does functional as a regional node.

Etobicoke City Centre includes Islington Village. There is a historic retail strips along both Bloor and Dundas. It's Bloor, Dundas, Islington, more than just one major street or corridor. Like NYCC, it's a regional transit hub, but unlike NYCC it also has a GO Train station. It also has a big park along the river. Overall, it's not on the same level as NYCC now, but the potential is much higher.

In addition to ECC, MCC, SCC, you can also see Uptown Core in Oakville and Markham Centre, these can become true nodes, more than just a single corridor. There's nothing special about NYCC. It's the most successful attempt at building a downtown, but it is also the least ambitious.

Yonge in North York had a head start due to the subway, but even without subways you can find other suburban corridors starting to be redeveloped in a similar way. Even Yonge in York Region is starting to transform, and eventually NYCC will not stand out in any way, shape or form. A "downtown" is more than one corridor

Of course, corridors are essential for downtowns. THAT is the main flaw of MCC, the lack of any true corridor, the lack of emphasis on building corridors. Brampton's ridiculous opposition to LRT along its Main Street will not help its downtown either. NYCC is the opposite problem, being little more than one corridor. That's why I say, people should ignore NYCC and look at Etobicoke City Centre instead.

[TorontoDrew]

In terms of building from scratch I thing Vaughan takes the cake in the GTA. Literally a new downtown is being constructed around transit where everything from residential, office, retail, and amenities were all master planned. this area used to be nothing but industrial and warehouse before. If it turns out like the renders it has potential to be an interesting hub, one worth a visit and one where people who live there might be happy not to leave for recreation or entertainment.

source: theglobeandmail.com


Source: urbantoronto.ca
It's nice to see big box retail being torn down for more urban development.


• Video Link

[shreddog]

Are there any "good" examples of greenfield "downtowns/city centres" out there?

I've never been to any of the "new" cities in China, but to date I've never seen a greenfield city centre that feels the same. In Vancouver I find the New West still "feels" more of a complete city centre than Richmond, or any of Surrey/Burnaby "city centres".

Really curious for examples that work ...

[Doady]

Problem with Vaughan Corporate Centre is too isolated. Literally surrounded by industrial, not one but two highways, and even a giant rail yard. Highway 7 is a better terminus for a subway line than Steeles West/Pioneer Village, and it's good they are trying to make the best of it, but don't expect much.

Vaughan is really one of the most faceless and haphazardly built suburbs, even worse than Brampton or Pickering. Look at next door Markham, at least they tried. People say it's all the same but I think it makes a big difference. Subway or no, Markham Centre even in its current state will always be superior to anything in Vaughan in the future.

[SpongeG]

I don't think Burnaby has a city centre. The city hall is next to a park and a high school. in what feels like the middle of nowhere.

I've been spending a lot of time in Whalley lately and it actually feels like a more of a city than I previously thought. Its just very broken up with empty lots, random houses and strip malls. Even with all the construction going on it's going to take a good decade for it to all come together. Driving from Surrey cebtral along 104th to guildford is awful.

[MonkeyRonin]

Originally Posted by Doady

Etobicoke City Centre includes Islington Village. There is a historic retail strips along both Bloor and Dundas. It's Bloor, Dundas, Islington, more than just one major street or corridor. Like NYCC, it's a regional transit hub, but unlike NYCC it also has a GO Train station. It also has a big park along the river. Overall, it's not on the same level as NYCC now, but the potential is much higher.

In addition to ECC, MCC, SCC, you can also see Uptown Core in Oakville and Markham Centre, these can become true nodes, more than just a single corridor. There's nothing special about NYCC. It's the most successful attempt at building a downtown, but it is also the least ambitious.

Yonge in North York had a head start due to the subway, but even without subways you can find other suburban corridors starting to be redeveloped in a similar way. Even Yonge in York Region is starting to transform, and eventually NYCC will not stand out in any way, shape or form. A "downtown" is more than one corridor

Of course, corridors are essential for downtowns. THAT is the main flaw of MCC, the lack of any true corridor, the lack of emphasis on building corridors. Brampton's ridiculous opposition to LRT along its Main Street will not help its downtown either. NYCC is the opposite problem, being little more than one corridor. That's why I say, people should ignore NYCC and look at Etobicoke City Centre instead.

Bloor has barely any retail in the stretch through Etobicoke City Centre. The more retail-dense strip that I posted earlier is in the Kingsway. Islington has zero retail, unless you're including gas stations. ECC's commercial stretch is entirely centred on Dundas.

If that's the standard for >1 retail strip, then it can also be claimed that there's some retail spreading along Sheppard and onto some of the side streets in North York. Plus a few transit-oriented shopping centres. ECC is just as linear.

Etobicoke has a GO Train station? North York has 2 subway lines, a u/c LRT line, and a future subway extension.

Regardless of the number of retail strips; NYCC is larger, denser, and has more going on than ECC. Maybe Etobicoke has more "potential", but that's entirely theoretical at this point.


Same scale - North York:




Etobicoke:

[stevanford1]

Originally Posted by TorontoDrew

In terms of building from scratch I thing Vaughan takes the cake in the GTA. Literally a new downtown is being constructed around transit where everything from residential, office, retail, and amenities were all master planned. this area used to be nothing but industrial and warehouse before. If it turns out like the renders it has potential to be an interesting hub, one worth a visit and one where people who live there might be happy not to leave for recreation or entertainment.

source: theglobeandmail.com


Source: urbantoronto.ca
It's nice to see big box retail being torn down for more urban development.


• Video Link

Yes, Vaughn City Centre is leaps and bounds above the MCC. It is turning out very well!

[MolsonExport]

Vaughn CC reminds me of the development cluster at Humber Bay, without the Bay.

[manny_santos]

Originally Posted by Doady

Yonge in North York had a head start due to the subway, but even without subways you can find other suburban corridors starting to be redeveloped in a similar way. Even Yonge in York Region is starting to transform, and eventually NYCC will not stand out in any way, shape or form. A "downtown" is more than one corridor

Of course, corridors are essential for downtowns. THAT is the main flaw of MCC, the lack of any true corridor, the lack of emphasis on building corridors. Brampton's ridiculous opposition to LRT along its Main Street will not help its downtown either. NYCC is the opposite problem, being little more than one corridor. That's why I say, people should ignore NYCC and look at Etobicoke City Centre instead.

Even before the subway, the corridor along Yonge Street north of the old City of Toronto limits benefited from the radial electric railways, which would have helped spur development around York Mills, Lansing, Willowdale, Newtonbrook, and Thornhill. These also existed along Lake Shore Road in Etobicoke and Kingston Road in Scarborough, which helped those areas develop before WWII. That's why Etobicoke has areas like Mimico, New Toronto and Long Branch that are a lot more urban feeling than some other parts of Etobicoke.

The Interurban lines between Vancouver and New Westminster were similar, and would have helped in the development of at least the modern Expo Line corridor through Burnaby long before SkyTrain was built. Curiously there was not much development along the Burnaby Lake interurban line, much of which followed the corridor now occupied by Highway 1 in part of Burnaby.

[manny_santos]

Originally Posted by SpongeG

I don't think Burnaby has a city centre. The city hall is next to a park and a high school. in what feels like the middle of nowhere.

I've been spending a lot of time in Whalley lately and it actually feels like a more of a city than I previously thought. Its just very broken up with empty lots, random houses and strip malls. Even with all the construction going on it's going to take a good decade for it to all come together. Driving from Surrey cebtral along 104th to guildford is awful.

Whalley, from my understanding, mostly developed after WWII. I've seen an aerial photo of the area from 1949, there was almost nothing there back then other than a cluster of buildings around King George and 108 Ave.

[kool maudit]

I think the question is, are there legal, cultural or commercial obstacles to the practice of building many things of radically varied sizes very close to one another?

I suspect there are legal obstacles in the form of planning regulations, cultural obstacles in the form of the legacy of architectural modernism* and commercial obstacles in the form of the relative ease of building on large plots.

If these could be surmounted, though, the areas built in this radically close-knit style would likely come to be as desirable, or nearly as desirable, as their pre-war counterparts, which command a premium across the country.

(*Here I am referring to the spatial norms of modernism, which tend to envision buildings as sculptural forms existing in some isolation -- true from Le Corbusier to Hadid. I am not arguing that new, close-knit developments should be built according to prewar styles; it would be better if they were not, in fact, to avoid the cartoonish nature of many neo-historicist buildings.)

[shreddog]

Originally Posted by kool maudit

I think the question is, are there legal, cultural or commercial obstacles to the practice of building many things of radically varied sizes very close to one another?

I suspect there are legal obstacles in the form of planning regulations, cultural obstacles in the form of the legacy of architectural modernism* and commercial obstacles in the form of the relative ease of building on large plots.
...

This really is the question. There have been Billions of dollars spent, 1000's of PHd's earned, and probably tens of 1000's of papers written in the pursuit of creating city centres from greenfield, but if we can't find many real world examples, what are the barriers??

Of is it just time - come back in a 100 years and VCC will be indistinguishable from Yonge between Front and Dundas.

[kool maudit]

It's hard, because it's not just getting behind this:



But also this:

[JHikka]

Originally Posted by shreddog

This really is the question. There have been Billions of dollars spent, 1000's of PHd's earned, and probably tens of 1000's of papers written in the pursuit of creating city centres from greenfield, but if we can't find many real world examples, what are the barriers??

Is that insane project in Innisfil still, uh, proposed? I seem to recall some recent proposal for a wide urban planned development in what is now greenfield outside Barrie.

[kool maudit]

When it comes down to it, even this view could be created by the construction of fewer than 20 buildings, more than half of them quite small ones:



They are building at this scale in Toronto right now.

[urbandreamer]

Northdale Waterloo (student ghetto) is more successful if not as good looking at VCC. I walked around VCC last summer and the scale is too big - big box condos with huge expanses of bland glass and large open plazas with huge driveways up to parking garages have replaced big box retail/parking. It lacks the intimacy of a real downtown. Northdale is still ugly and no good either.