Quebec, the French Language, and Quebecois Identity

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by ToxiK

She left because of immigration and religious symbols policies at the CAQ. The fact that by joining the Liberals she would become a minister and be part of a government in a good economic position (therefore more likely to be reelected) probably did play a part in her decision...

I don't agree with the first part. She left the CAQ (and politics) for a really nice job as head of Montréal International.

At the time there was more of a consensus among parties (including the CAQ she was part of) about secularism and she like most everyone supported the recommendations of the Bouchard-Taylor commission which was actually launched by the Liberals. Which ironically is what inspired the CAQ's Bill 21.

It's only fairly recently that the Quebec Liberals have backtracked on secularism. The Liberals even had their own secularism bill (62) in the final years of their government before they were defeated by the CAQ. I doubt the Liberals would go there these days.

Anglade joined the Liberals after a 2-year absence from politics, when the Liberals were riding high and the CAQ looked like it was stagnating or declining. As you say she was offered a ministerial portfolio and also a safe red seat.

Maybe she is indeed more happy where she is today from a "values" perspective, but back in the day it was clearly more a question of opportunism than values.

[lio45]

Originally Posted by Acajack

This is very true. And the PQ is also facing a similar existential crisis (and decline) as the PLQ, largely for the same reason.

Yep. Very true.

Francophones who wished for more provincial autonomy but didn’t want a referendum had no choice but to vote PLQ;

Francophones who wanted less servility towards Ottawa yet not necessarily sovereignty had no choice but to vote PQ.

Now everyone’s voting CAQ.

[Acajack]

Last nail in the coffin?

Anglade and a bunch of PLQ MNAs and candidates will be leading a march against Bill 96 (amendments to Bill 101) this week-end.

May as well come out and say openly that you are writing off the francophone vote this October.

[MolsonExport]

Nothing like having the Anglos to serve as the boogeyman for Quebec nationalism. What would you guys do if all Anglos left Quebec? I know, they are "the most spoiled minority in the world." I guess the Allophones would fill the void nicely.

Do allophones and anglos vote CAQ? Honest question.

[MonctonRad]

Originally Posted by MolsonExport

Nothing like having the Anglos to serve as the boogeyman for Quebec nationalism. What would you guys do if all Anglos left Quebec? I know, they are "the most spoiled minority in the world." I guess the Allophones would fill the void nicely.

Anyone who's not chez nous I guess would do............

[Binour]

Originally Posted by MolsonExport

Nothing like having the Anglos to serve as the boogeyman for Quebec nationalism. What would you guys do if all Anglos left Quebec? I know, they are "the most spoiled minority in the world." I guess the Allophones would fill the void nicely.

Someone has a different opinion on this. But the conclusion is the same. We need each other. (je suppose que la vaste majorité des forumers sur ce site lisent le français)
https://www.ledevoir.com/societe/710...-deux-vitesses

[MolsonExport]

There is plenty of "Quebec bashing", and this is something that I abhor. I came face to face with it when I moved to the interior of BC, after having spent my life in Montreal. As an Anglo Quebecker, one came face to face with "Anglo Bashing" quite regularly. Mind you, some Anglos deserved it (the metaphorical famous fat English lady working at Eaton's, refusing to speak French). Most of the rest of us embraced the French fact of Quebec, and learned the language, without wanting to assimilate completely. I know that Quebecois can appreciate the idea of not wanting to be assimilated.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by MolsonExport

Nothing like having the Anglos to serve as the boogeyman for Quebec nationalism. What would you guys do if all Anglos left Quebec? I know, they are "the most spoiled minority in the world." I guess the Allophones would fill the void nicely.

Do allophones and anglos vote CAQ? Honest question.

How is pointing out that decisions that Dominique Anglade and the PLQ are making could be potentially damaging for the future of the party, "anglo bashing"?

I am simply pointing out that she's taking positions that are out of synch with 85% of the electorate, that's all.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by Binour

Someone has a different opinion on this. But the conclusion is the same. We need each other. (je suppose que la vaste majorité des forumers sur ce site lisent le français)
https://www.ledevoir.com/societe/710...-deux-vitesses

Interesting article.

Francophobia (of which Quebec bashing is just the contemporary manifestation) is arguably Canada's Number 2 historical stain in terms of significance, and has been present on this territory since the mid-1700s at least.

(Of course it ranks quite a bit below everything that's been done to Indigenous people, in terms of how vicious, systematic and effective the nastiness has been. Even if Indigenous people happen to be more "popular" in polite company at the moment than francophones are.)

Anglophobia in French Canada has always been present too, but was more about fear and bitterness (like a dormant volcano) for most of our history, than outright hate. This started to change about 50-60 years ago as francophones became a lot more confident and, to some degree, cocky. Now francophones can dish it out with the best of them.

[MolsonExport]

.

[MonctonRad]

Originally Posted by Acajack

Anglophobia in French Canada has always been present too, but was more about fear and bitterness (like a dormant volcano) for most of our history, than outright hate. This started to change about 50-60 years ago as francophones became a lot more confident and, to some degree, cocky. Now francophones can dish it out with the best of them.

I don't get the impression there is much absolute "hatred" towards francophones in NB. We've lived together in this territory in more or less harmony for 0ver 200 years.

Around here, any animus is born of anger and frustration over increasing bilingual requirements for more and more positions, effectively shutting out otherwise capable anglophones from good paying jobs. There is a wide reaching misconception that you have to be able to speak French to get a job with the provincial government (patently false, but bilingualism is important for career advancement).

Most people I know are fully on board with the idea of francophones having full access to bilingual services. Most however would prefer if this commitment were more regional in scope rather than province wide, so that capable anglophone paramedics in Grand Manan or deepest Charlotte County could get hired.

[someone123]

Originally Posted by MonctonRad

Around here, any animus is born of anger and frustration over increasing bilingual requirements for more and more positions, effectively shutting out otherwise capable anglophones from good paying jobs.

I don't have an opinion on what the language requirements should be in NB but one slightly sad thing in the Maritimes, culturally, is how much weight people give to the importance of getting a job with the government. In a healthy economy/culture you'd probably worry about this about 50% less without the language laws even being a factor because there would be so much more private enterprise. To what degree this change is already happening and the culture is catching up I do not know.

[Acajack]

Some recent Quebec news:

- Bill 96 which is an update to Bill 101 (Charter of the French Language) was passed in the National Assembly yesterday.

- The federal government announced this morning that it would be challenging Quebec's Bill 21 on securalism and religious symbols, via the Supreme Court of Canada.

- Suit Supply and Harry Rosen are anticipating record sales in the wake of all the people who will be tearing off their shirts in the coming days and weeks.

[MonctonRad]

So, how do you feel about the newfound powers of the tongue troopers to ransack through computers and personal cellphones to determine if you ordered pizza for the corporate office party in English? Seems a bit draconian to me.........

[kwoldtimer]

Originally Posted by Acajack

...

- The federal government announced this morning that it would be challenging Quebec's Bill 21 on securalism and religious symbols, via the Supreme Court of Canada.

...

Sort of - they will join the appeal of Quebeckers when it goes to the SCC. Not sure what they’d do in the unlikely event that the plaintiffs (or the GofQ) were to decide not to appeal to the SCC.

[MonctonRad]

Interesting CBC opinion piece:

https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/montr...cess-1.6464972

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by MonctonRad

Interesting CBC opinion piece:

https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/montr...cess-1.6464972

It's not a CBC opinion piece. It's the personal opinion of a single individual who happens to be a teacher, and which the CBC chose to publish.

I happen to agree with the general point that French needs to be improved in the anglophone K-11 (long story as to why it's not 12) system here.

But at least part of this bill is about forcing the anglo system to improve itself. They've had 40 years to do this and they've let both their community and everyone else down. Note that the K-11 anglophone public system has a great deal of autonomy from the province due to the Mahé v. Alberta case under which linguistic minorities won the right to manage their own schools.

Quebec doesn't have as much authority of K-11 anglo schools as it does over post-secondary (like CEGEPs) which are not covered by minority language education rights in the Constitution.

[Zeej]

Originally Posted by Acajack

It's not a CBC opinion piece. It's the personal opinion of a single individual who happens to be a teacher, and which the CBC chose to publish.

I happen to agree with the general point that French needs to be improved in the anglophone K-11 (long story as to why it's not 12) system here.

But at least part of this bill is about forcing the anglo system to improve itself. They've had 40 years to do this and they've let both their community and everyone else down. Note that the K-11 anglophone public system has a great deal of autonomy from the province due to the Mahé v. Alberta case under which linguistic minorities won the right to manage their own schools.

Quebec doesn't have as much authority of K-11 anglo schools as it does over post-secondary (like CEGEPs) which are not covered by minority language education rights in the Constitution.

French language education in English K-11 schools is really insufficient, particularly when it comes to spoken French, which is the main barrier to entry for finding work here. It's not the easiest thing to accomplish, but I thought ex-PQ leader Jean-François Lisée had a great idea when he proposed a one semester exchange where anglo students would spend time elsewhere in the province.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by Zeej

French language education in English K-11 schools is really insufficient, particularly when it comes to spoken French, which is the main barrier to entry for finding work here. It's not the easiest thing to accomplish, but I thought ex-PQ leader Jean-François Lisée had a great idea when he proposed a one semester exchange where anglo students would spend time elsewhere in the province.

In fairness the anglo school system in Quebec has tremendously improved its teaching of French compared to what it used to offer.

It produces lots of kids who are extremely bilingual, but that's nowhere near a comprehensive reality - which is where they should be 45 years after Bill 101 which overhauled the language dynamics in Quebec. Almost half a century should have been enough time for the anglo system to have reinvented itself. Obviously it's made some progress but it's still not near the level of, say, the Franco-Ontarian system and its teaching of English. (Of which I am sort of an example.)

As I alluded to in my post - these failings only hurt the anglo community in the long term, because kids with subpar French are among the most likely to leave the province.

[Zeej]

Originally Posted by Acajack

In fairness the anglo school system in Quebec has tremendously improved its teaching of French compared to what it used to offer.

It produces lots of kids who are extremely bilingual, but that's nowhere near a comprehensive reality - which is where they should be 45 years after Bill 101 which overhauled the language dynamics in Quebec. Almost half a century should have been enough time for the anglo system to have reinvented itself. Obviously it's made some progress but it's still not near the level of, say, the Franco-Ontarian system and its teaching of English. (Of which I am sort of an example.)

As I alluded to in my post - these failings only hurt the anglo community in the long term, because kids with subpar French are among the most likely to leave the province.

I agree - things have generally improved. About 75-80% of my French immersion high school class of 2006 is still here, largely able to operate well. I expect that proportion is still improving. Compare this with a similar class from the 80s - the anecdote was that some of those high school reunions were held in Toronto.