Dream LRT

[miketoronto]

Check out my dream LRT for Hamilton.
http://maps.google.ca/maps/ms?hl=en&...5cf8086095967a
Red: Underground portion
Blue: Row in the middle of the middle of the street
Orange: Aboveground row.

[Jon Dalton]

My dream LRT would have more lines. Like Larry DiIanni's 'mayor of the whole city' plan to run LRT to Glanbrook and Waterdown.

[highwater]

Of course he's assuming that Glanbrook and Waterdown want LRT. I have a friend who used to work in the planning dept. She told me people in Ancaster went berserk when more buses were added to routes up there because they thought more buses would bring poor people to Ancaster. Di Ianni isn't about to fight to have LRT brought out to the 'burbs. Like my signature line says, he's just harping on the 'whole city' theme as a dog whistle to the disgruntled suburban voters who get mad when they think the downtown is getting anything positive. They're the proverbial dogs in the manger. They don't want LRT in their wards because they think it will attract poor people, but they don't want downtown to get it either because that would be 'unfair'.

[mattgrande]

We at least need to get some busses out there. There are thousands of new houses in "downtown Binbrook," and the closest bus is at Saltfleet, about 8km away. Those houses have a lot of young families, and those kids are going to want to be able to get to... well, anything. It's still just houses there right now, no shopping/entertainment.

[markbarbera]

The idea that there is resistance to public transit in suburban areas is pure myth. In fact, it is quite the opposite. When you look at last year's city-wide poll on LRT, fully 70% were in support of LRT when the city cost matched the anticipated cost based on current Metrolinx project financing.

I don't understand the need for some to try to promote a urban/suburban conflict where one does not exist. Wedging may be advantageous for inner city politicians like McHattie, but this practice is disasterous for anyone with citywide political aspirations.

[highwater]

McHattie does not practise wedge politics, that's Di Ianni's specialty and one of the reasons why Di Ianni has it in for McHattie.

And as for supposedly 'promoting urban/suburban conflict', I was just relating anecdotal evidence of planner and developer acquaintances of mine who have come up against virulent suburban NIMBYism in the course of their attempts to develop denser, more transit-friendly projects in suburban areas such as Ancaster and Oakville. My statement about suburban fears of transit bringing in poor people was taken from actual comments made in public meetings. It's possible these sentiments are those of a vocal minority, but I don't think a statistic showing 70% support for LRT city-wide is enough proof of that.

[Jon Dalton]

I am all for LRT to every corner of the city, but we have to start with the corridors that make sense. Larry's suggestion is purely rhetoric - he has no intention of planning LRT lines to places like Binbrook in the next 4 years whether those communities want them or not. The economic case is not there. The B-line meanwhile already has the ridership to justify LRT and would have a very high fare recovery.

Running transit to distant suburbs is always going to be a drain the system's resources. Sometimes it needs to be done - for example the 427 express buses are some the biggest money losers in the TTC even though they are packed. This is because of the amount of non-revenue miles on the routes. A bus to Binbrook or Waterdown is the same - alot of distance to cover with nothing coming into the farebox. It's another case of our inner city taxes making someone else's tranquil life in the suburbs possible.

Don't get me wrong, I believe transit has to serve the entire city including the parts that shouldn't exist as such. Running transit to those places must be done as part of a long term strategy to build corridors with enough density to ultimately justify the service. But first, the HSR is barely able to keep up an acceptable level of service anywhere and that needs to be addressed before posturing on behalf of the 'whole city'.

[miketoronto]

[QUOTE=Jon Dalton;4988450]Running transit to distant suburbs is always going to be a drain the system's resources. Sometimes it needs to be done - for example the 427 express buses are some the biggest money losers in the TTC even though they are packed. This is because of the amount of non-revenue miles on the routes. A bus to Binbrook or Waterdown is the same - alot of distance to cover with nothing coming into the farebox. It's another case of our inner city taxes making someone else's tranquil life in the suburbs possible.
[QUOTE]

That is not really true. The cost recovery ratio for most suburban TTC bus routes is equal to the cost recovery of only slightly below the inner city routes. In fact many of the inner city routes have some of the worst c/r ratios while many suburban routes have a great c/r ratio.

The reason some of the express routes have low cost recovery ratios is that they pick up most of their riders from the subway stations, and therefore the fare is already paid for from when the person got on the subway.