Metro Vancouver's Next City Centre?

[misher]

Originally Posted by WarrenC12

Why do you just make stuff up?

Not exactly shunning but the zoning just isn’t there right now. Guess we will see what the corridor plan says.

[Migrant_Coconut]

We're already halfway to Bloor. Most of Central Broadway is 10-12 stories, and the higher ones (and the accompanying zoning plan) are just waiting on the SkyTrain extension.

[GMasterAres]

Original poster said "Metro Vancouver" not "Vancouver."

Metro-Vancouver's next "City Centre" is either going to be Metrotown or Surrey Central. That's it.

Oakridge, Broadway, etc., won't be considered regional city centers. Honestly people have far too high hopes for Oakridge. It is going to be an expensive condo bedroom centre but I have big doubts you'll see any meaningful commercial development there at all in the long term. Not regional commercial.

75% of Metro Vancouver can't get to Oakridge in any reasonable way be it car OR transit.

Just my thoughts.

The main strike against Metrotown is that as population SoF is growing, there will be more of an inclination by people to remain SoF so we'll regionally need a SoF centre. Metrotown is arguably just another regional centre for North of Fraser.

I live in Surrey Central and other than skytrain, it is a pain in the ass to get to Metrotown at any meaningful time of day just due to traffic. And that's Surrey Central. Nobody in Langley, Maple Ridge, Delta, etc. would want to commute to Metrotown any more than to Downtown Vancouver honestly.

So there is a very good reason why Metro Vancouver itself has named Surrey Central as the next Metro-Vancouver city centre. It just has to live up to that designation and it is starting to make good strides in that direction. There's been a lot of recent commercial development in SC and there is a lot more either under construction or on the books for coming years.

[Vin]

Originally Posted by Migrant_Coconut

We're already halfway to Bloor. Most of Central Broadway is 10-12 stories, and the higher ones (and the accompanying zoning plan) are just waiting on the SkyTrain extension.

Hahaha that really makes me laugh. Halfway to Bloor? Far from it. Bloor now has many above-40-storey office and residential towers, including a 60-storey building and an 80-storey under construction. It's got a world class museum, a mall at Yorkdale, another mall with the Bay as an anchor, and a shopping district with high-end stores and movie theaters, not to mention that there is already a fully-functioning subway line underneath the street, with two other subway crossings at Yonge/Bloor & St-George/Bloor. The area is also continuously built up ALL THE WAY to the traditional Toronto CBD district, although the distance is more like from 16th Ave in Vancouver to our downtown.

What do we have on W. Broadway besides crumbling office blocks from the 60s and wooden shacks, and a refusal to upzone such that developers are skirting the area to build somewhere else?

Bloor, Toronto:
https://www.google.ca/maps/@43.67065...7i13312!8i6656

West Broadway, Vancouver:
https://www.google.ca/maps/@49.26337...7i13312!8i6656

[Vin]

Originally Posted by WarrenC12

Why do you just make stuff up?

Why are you blind?

[misher]

Originally Posted by jhausner

Original poster said "Metro Vancouver" not "Vancouver."

Metro-Vancouver's next "City Centre" is either going to be Metrotown or Surrey Central. That's it.

Oakridge, Broadway, etc., won't be considered regional city centers. Honestly people have far too high hopes for Oakridge. It is going to be an expensive condo bedroom centre but I have big doubts you'll see any meaningful commercial development there at all in the long term. Not regional commercial.

75% of Metro Vancouver can't get to Oakridge in any reasonable way be it car OR transit.

Just my thoughts.

The main strike against Metrotown is that as population SoF is growing, there will be more of an inclination by people to remain SoF so we'll regionally need a SoF centre. Metrotown is arguably just another regional centre for North of Fraser.

I live in Surrey Central and other than skytrain, it is a pain in the ass to get to Metrotown at any meaningful time of day just due to traffic. And that's Surrey Central. Nobody in Langley, Maple Ridge, Delta, etc. would want to commute to Metrotown any more than to Downtown Vancouver honestly.

So there is a very good reason why Metro Vancouver itself has named Surrey Central as the next Metro-Vancouver city centre. It just has to live up to that designation and it is starting to make good strides in that direction. There's been a lot of recent commercial development in SC and there is a lot more either under construction or on the books for coming years.

Hey man, some really good points here! Your right Surrey is quite likely.

[scryer]

Originally Posted by jhausner

Original poster said "Metro Vancouver" not "Vancouver."

No need to get uptight about it .

If we're talking Metro Vancouver then yeah, I absolutely agree with you that Surrey Central is really in a great position to achieve itself as the next city centre.

However Surrey has to be careful with the way it develops itself. It needs more workplaces, meaningful commercial development, and more rental residential. (Now I get it, the proposed GEC building is rental but that building is being mostly marketed to international students; IMO that's a little different from having a rental made to market to working BC residents.) If Surrey keeps building these glass condos for international buyers then Surrey Central will just be another Metrotown.

[Aroundtheworld]

Originally Posted by jhausner

Original poster said "Metro Vancouver" not "Vancouver."

Metro-Vancouver's next "City Centre" is either going to be Metrotown or Surrey Central. That's it.

Oakridge, Broadway, etc., won't be considered regional city centers. Honestly people have far too high hopes for Oakridge. It is going to be an expensive condo bedroom centre but I have big doubts you'll see any meaningful commercial development there at all in the long term. Not regional commercial.

75% of Metro Vancouver can't get to Oakridge in any reasonable way be it car OR transit.

Just my thoughts.

The main strike against Metrotown is that as population SoF is growing, there will be more of an inclination by people to remain SoF so we'll regionally need a SoF centre. Metrotown is arguably just another regional centre for North of Fraser.

I live in Surrey Central and other than skytrain, it is a pain in the ass to get to Metrotown at any meaningful time of day just due to traffic. And that's Surrey Central. Nobody in Langley, Maple Ridge, Delta, etc. would want to commute to Metrotown any more than to Downtown Vancouver honestly.

So there is a very good reason why Metro Vancouver itself has named Surrey Central as the next Metro-Vancouver city centre. It just has to live up to that designation and it is starting to make good strides in that direction. There's been a lot of recent commercial development in SC and there is a lot more either under construction or on the books for coming years.

I think the question is not if Surrey will supersede Metrotown, but when. Given the current trends, I think it could be a long time. I don't have the exact numbers, but I would think that the current rates of development for both areas are comparable, despite the fact that Metrotown is much more developed already.

[Bcasey25raptor]

Originally Posted by Vin

Hahaha that really makes me laugh. Halfway to Bloor? Far from it. Bloor now has many above-40-storey office and residential towers, including a 60-storey building and an 80-storey under construction. It's got a world class museum, a mall at Yorkdale, another mall with the Bay as an anchor, and a shopping district with high-end stores and movie theaters, not to mention that there is already a fully-functioning subway line underneath the street, with two other subway crossings at Yonge/Bloor & St-George/Bloor. The area is also continuously built up ALL THE WAY to the traditional Toronto CBD district, although the distance is more like from 16th Ave in Vancouver to our downtown.

What do we have on W. Broadway besides crumbling office blocks from the 60s and wooden shacks, and a refusal to upzone such that developers are skirting the area to build somewhere else?

Bloor, Toronto:
https://www.google.ca/maps/@43.67065...7i13312!8i6656

West Broadway, Vancouver:
https://www.google.ca/maps/@49.26337...7i13312!8i6656

West broadway looks nicer to me and more pedestrian friendly. Building height doesn't matter all that much.

[Migrant_Coconut]

Originally Posted by Vin

Hahaha that really makes me laugh. Halfway to Bloor? Far from it. Bloor now has many above-40-storey office and residential towers, including a 60-storey building and an 80-storey under construction. It's got a world class museum, a mall at Yorkdale, another mall with the Bay as an anchor, and a shopping district with high-end stores and movie theaters, not to mention that there is already a fully-functioning subway line underneath the street, with two other subway crossings at Yonge/Bloor & St-George/Bloor. The area is also continuously built up ALL THE WAY to the traditional Toronto CBD district, although the distance is more like from 16th Ave in Vancouver to our downtown.

Back when the subway first opened and there were just 2M Torontonians (exactly where Broadway is right now), Bloor looked like this. Much of it still does; zooming out a bit reveals that the area outside Yorkville is much like Dunbar.

OTOH, Broadway has as much density as Bloor did at the time, and spread over twice its length. Halfway is a conservative estimate. The sooner you stop judging a city by the amount of Tall Towers and Big Malls it has, the happier you'll be.

Originally Posted by Vin

What do we have on W. Broadway besides crumbling office blocks from the 60s and wooden shacks, and a refusal to upzone such that developers are skirting the area to build somewhere else?

Originally Posted by Vin

Why are you blind?

I've heard of selective hearing, but not selective reading. It's been posted time and time again that everybody's waiting for the M-Line extension to start before the 150+ unit highrises get approved and built. No developers are being chased away at all.

[Migrant_Coconut]

Originally Posted by Aroundtheworld

I think the question is not if Surrey will supersede Metrotown, but when. Given the current trends, I think it could be a long time. I don't have the exact numbers, but I would think that the current rates of development for both areas are comparable, despite the fact that Metrotown is much more developed already.

Makes sense. Surrey's got the population figures, all it needs is the development to match.

[misher]

Originally Posted by Migrant_Coconut

I've heard of selective hearing, but not selective reading. It's been posted time and time again that everybody's waiting for the M-Line extension to start before the 150+ unit highrises get approved and built. No developers are being chased away at all.

Correct me if I’m wrong but shouldn’t we be building the high rises before the 2025 line?

And I thought for two years were having no development while the city gets its ducks in a row and that we’re chasing away speculation aka development?

[Migrant_Coconut]

Originally Posted by misher

Correct me if I’m wrong but shouldn’t we be building the high rises before the 2025 line?

And I thought for two years were having no development while the city gets its ducks in a row and that we’re chasing away speculation aka development?

Why would we do that? The SkyTrain extension is the only thing making downtown-level density practical in the first place; if the towers open first, that's thousands of new residents congesting Broadway, which'd already be partially disrupted by subway construction. Ideally we'd want them built after the subway opens, or at the very least, simultaneously.

Speculation? Solved: all development is frozen for now, and condos will be (mostly) rejected outside of station areas. Hasn't stopped developers from buying up restaurants and low-rises left, right and centre anyway. Everybody's just waiting on TransLink now.

[misher]

Originally Posted by Migrant_Coconut

Why would we do that? The SkyTrain extension is the only thing making downtown-level density practical in the first place; if the towers open first, that's thousands of new residents congesting Broadway, which'd already be partially disrupted by subway construction. Ideally we'd want them built after the subway opens, or at the very least, simultaneously.

Speculation? Solved: all development is frozen for now, and condos will be (mostly) rejected outside of station areas. Hasn't stopped developers from buying up restaurants and low-rises left, right and centre anyway. Everybody's just waiting on TransLink now.

But doesn’t that waste the skytrain for a couple years until there built? We do have a housing crisis so id suggest housing first lol.

[Migrant_Coconut]

Originally Posted by misher

But doesn’t that waste the skytrain for a couple years until there built? We do have a housing crisis so id suggest housing first lol.

Not really - TransLink projects 250,000+ riders after Year 1 (100k needed to break even) with just existing density.

Trying to solve the housing crisis by making a transportation crisis solves nothing. And I don't even want to guess how a rise in land value makes construction even more expensive. Really, it's not like there aren't existing stations to turn into rental towers. Or an entire city to turn into duplexes and walkups.

[rpvan]

Downtown Vancouver will always remain the focal point of the region. Don't think there's any changing that. If Surrey can get it's act together within the next 20 years, hopefully we'll begin to see another regional downtown take shape which will compliment Downtown Vancouver. It's quite a tall order, however the plans are encouraging. An article compared the future Vancouver/Surrey relationship to San Francisco/Oakland.

If Downtown Surrey does end living up to its potential, it would only be a benefit to the region as a whole - it is geographically located right in the centre of Metro Vancouver. Would present viable alternative to Downtown Vancouver for commuters arriving from major cities in the east such as Abbotsford or Chilliwack

[fredinno]

Originally Posted by Bcasey25raptor

West broadway looks nicer to me and more pedestrian friendly. Building height doesn't matter all that much.

But it's not really a City Centre. I mean, it's pretty generic older commercial suburbs, TBH. But to each, their own?




Anyways, the two town Centres that SHOULD become the next major city centres are Surrey, and Lonsdale. Lonsdale is already fairly developed, though its growth is limited until Skytrain can be built up there. However, the transportation problems, Burrard Inlet, and narrow corridors in the North Shore mean that the current situation of being a satellite to the CBD is not exactly the most optimal. (Same as Surrey). Plus, Skytrain is most likely going to branch out from Lonsdale.

[Tetsuo]

I did a couple years living downtown/Kits and working shifts SoF, really enjoyed that reverse commute (some chokepoints though), many of my neighbours did the same.

If a second city centre emerged attractive for the downtown office type white collar jobs, you'd end up with even more people doing that, downtown for amenities/lifestyle/social scenes, while working at this other "city centre".

Unlikely to happen though !

[rpvan]

Originally Posted by fredinno

But it's not really a City Centre. I mean, it's pretty generic older commercial suburbs, TBH. But to each, their own?




Anyways, the two town Centres that SHOULD become the next major city centres are Surrey, and Lonsdale. Lonsdale is already fairly developed, though its growth is limited until Skytrain can be built up there. However, the transportation problems, Burrard Inlet, and narrow corridors in the North Shore mean that the current situation of being a satellite to the CBD is not exactly the most optimal. (Same as Surrey). Plus, Skytrain is most likely going to branch out from Lonsdale.

Lonsdale is really just a spillover of Downtown Van.

In the near future, Downtown Van will most likely expand south to Broadway, west to Arbutus, east to Main and north to Lonsdale. We're already seeing the spillover happen on Granville, Cambie and Main south to Broadway. Higher density buildings are quickly moving south.

Won't be long till the area as a whole really starts filling in with high density development.

[Vin]

Originally Posted by rpvan

Lonsdale is really just a spillover of Downtown Van.

In the near future, Downtown Van will most likely expand south to Broadway, west to Arbutus, east to Main and north to Lonsdale. We're already seeing the spillover happen on Granville, Cambie and Main south to Broadway. Higher density buildings are quickly moving south.

Won't be long till the area as a whole really starts filling in with high density development.

It would have already if not for Vancouver's various restrictions. Hence the spill jumped, and is still jumping across municipal boundaries into Burbaby, Richmond and Surrey. If the current restrictions are still in place and not revised, the current trend will continue.

Originally Posted by Tetsuo

I did a couple years living downtown/Kits and working shifts SoF, really enjoyed that reverse commute (some chokepoints though), many of my neighbours did the same.

If a second city centre emerged attractive for the downtown office type white collar jobs, you'd end up with even more people doing that, downtown for amenities/lifestyle/social scenes, while working at this other "city centre".

Unlikely to happen though !

What about downtown as a bedroom community (West End, Yaletown, OV, Coal Harbour, Kitsilano, Fairview Slopes, Chinatown, Gastown, etc.) and entertainment/retail/work in other places such as Metrotown, Brentwood, Richmond Centre and Surrey Central?