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  #201  
Old Posted Sep 20, 2023, 7:30 PM
LRTeverywhere LRTeverywhere is offline
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Originally Posted by J.OT13 View Post
We did finally have a delegation from Agriculture Canada proving a definitive response to the question at hand.

It's frustrating that it took this long for the Feds and City to sit down and have a discussion about this. Lawyers should not be involved in this. It seems like this should not be a matter of opinion, but of scientific facts. Break down the requirements of the Farm behind closed doors, get the NCC to implement iron clad restrictions. Then there's the question of the developers, but they did probably overpay based on what they thought they could get, and not what's actually zoned (yes, yes, OP and all, but not everything supports what they want).

Ultimately, the Farm should move or shift to an urban farming research facility. It might be worth putting a moratorium on any new developments adjacent to the Farm until they've completed their current research (if that's even possible) and shifted to an actual rural site.

Except from a city and legal perspective, the only basis they can go off is the subject property itself, else it will go to tribunal, and the city will lose.

This is something the farm should have seen coming a long time ago and lobbied the federal government to create protections for it or a plan of what to do, they cannot now suddenly protest each development on a case by case basis because the city cannot make their decisions based on it...
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  #202  
Old Posted Sep 20, 2023, 7:35 PM
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Pretty hilarious to hear the Agriculture Canada scientists. Some great zingers like "I deal with numbers, not ranges" to Troster's question on what height they would allow, with her responding "A scientist and a politician walk into a bar". he was not amused

And then when Kitts asks how long the current study has been going on, the young lady asks her colleague "we're we alive? 1886?".

I thoroughly enjoyed the conversation.
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  #203  
Old Posted Sep 20, 2023, 7:39 PM
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Originally Posted by LRTeverywhere View Post
Except from a city and legal perspective, the only basis they can go off is the subject property itself, else it will go to tribunal, and the city will lose.

This is something the farm should have seen coming a long time ago and lobbied the federal government to create protections for it or a plan of what to do, they cannot now suddenly protest each development on a case by case basis because the city cannot make their decisions based on it...
I agree. The City should have approached the Farm when they were doing the OP instead of just listing it as "green space" and the Farm should have approached the City and got the Feds to back them up.

The OLT dosen't care about agricultural land, the environment, even less so scientific research. They'll look at the proposal, scream "housing crisis" and rubber stamp.

It's late to the game, but the conversation needs to be had. The Feds need to step in and restrict the OLT's powers over this one. And we should be analyzing the entire farm and land around it and avoid any sort of piecemeal, case-by-case review.
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  #204  
Old Posted Sep 20, 2023, 8:00 PM
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Williamoforange Williamoforange is offline
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I agree. The City should have approached the Farm when they were doing the OP instead of just listing it as "green space" and the Farm should have approached the City and got the Feds to back them up.

The OLT dosen't care about agricultural land, the environment, even less so scientific research. They'll look at the proposal, scream "housing crisis" and rubber stamp.

It's late to the game, but the conversation needs to be had. The Feds need to step in and restrict the OLT's powers over this one. And we should be analyzing the entire farm and land around it and avoid any sort of piecemeal, case-by-case review.
Niether OLT, the city, the province, nor the dev are in the wrong here. The farm is the ones responsible for there priorities, the city has other such as housing.

If the feds are to get involved there path is to buy out the properties nothing else, they should not be creating further regulations on housing development in Ottawa on land they don't own. More regs are not the solution to the housing crisis.
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  #205  
Old Posted Sep 20, 2023, 8:05 PM
Alex613 Alex613 is offline
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Agree! I thought for a while that the Committee was going to recommend that the parties come together to see if any compromise could be had, but no. And I agree that such discussions should have been undertaken much earlier.

The Feds talked about compensation. So I am not sure that they would be going to the OLT to challenge the decision. One of the first things the feds said is that if the proposal proceeds they would evaluate their legal options, and that their legal counsel told them to state that nothing they say at Committee should be construed as constraining their legal options (or something like that). So they feel they have grounds. Yes, lawyers should not have been involved, but they are now unfortunately. *Sigh*

But perhaps all of this will help the conversation about the future of the Farm move forward? That might not be a bad thing.
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  #206  
Old Posted Sep 20, 2023, 8:17 PM
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Plan for residential towers across from Central Experimental Farm approved by city's planning committee a second time
Deputy Minister of Agriculture and Agri-food of Canada Stefanie Beck raised concerns about the "significant costly and enduring impacts that this development, if it goes ahead as planned, will have on the Central Experimental Farm."

Joanne Laucius, Ottawa Citizen
Published Sep 20, 2023 • Last updated 0 minutes ago • 5 minute read


The city’s planning committee has for a second time approved a plan to build two residential towers at 1081 Carling Avenue — even though committee members heard the decision will almost certainly go to the Ontario Land Tribunal — after it was sent back to the committee.

The redevelopment proposal from Taggart Realty Management with Fotenn Planning + Design includes two residential towers — one 16 storeys and the other 27 storeys tall — replacing an existing eight-storey building and creating 410 units.

At issue was the balance between the need to build more housing and adhere to the city’s official plan which is in conflict with the effect the new development could have on the historic Central Experimental Farm. The towers would cast shadows on a plot of research land on the farm, which is the central research station for the federal Department of Agriculture. It was clear many councillors felt they were in a bind between provincial and federal authority — but that they had to make a decision.

“We have gotten very clear indication from the provincial level about how they want us to plan in Ottawa, which is as a denser city that is focused on transit, that is focused on intensification, that is focused on people living near amenities that curtails sprawl to a certain degree that it can, versus the federal level of government, which is responsible for agriculture,” said Coun. Jeff Leiper, the chair of the committee.

“The Ontario Land Tribunal, to which this file will almost certainly go, I’m sure, is going to be considering this within their mandate.”

Wednesday’s meeting was the next step in a back-and-forth over the development and what it means for the Central Experimental Farm. The proposal has stirred up controversy, with 160 residents attending a virtual public meeting and 14 delegations appearing before the committee on Aug. 16 when it voted to approve the plan the first time. Nine delegations signed up to speak to the committee on Wednesday.

City staff had recommended that the committee approve a zoning bylaw amendment allowing the project to go ahead. The project would meet the goals of the city’s official plan as well as an analysis of the shadow cast by the towers, based on the city’s terms of reference. The recommendations concluded the shadows wouldn’t exceed the criteria for “open spaces” reserved for scientific, educational and cultural purposes.

But representatives from Agriculture Canada were not available to answer questions the first time the planning committee considered the zoning change last month. The committee’s decision to approve it was sent to city council, which sent it back which sent it back to the planning committee after it had been determined that a required notice of a public meeting had not been shared with to Agriculture and Agrifood Canada and the NCC, in accordance with the Planning Act.

Speaking to the committee on Wednesday, the Deputy Minister of Agriculture and Agri-food of Canada, Stefanie Beck, raised concerns about the “significant costly and enduring impacts that this development, if it goes ahead as planned, will have on the Central Experimental Farm.”

Beck said there is a significant link between research on the farm and feeding the nation. The research projects on the farm can’t be moved elsewhere, she said. “If you do allow this development to go ahead as is, you should know that millions of dollars and decades of long-term research will be compromised.”

“We are hoping not to have to take any legal action, but we are losing access to research facilities that cost millions of dollars. If we’re being asked to mitigate, there’s a cost to that.”

The city has previously acknowledged the incremental impact development near the farm will have on it, she said. “Our concerns today should be understood to extend to future development plans around the farm,” said Beck.

Meanwhile, some councillors also expressed concerns about what approving the towers at 1081 Carling would mean for other projects in the pipeline near the farm.

There are other applications in the queue, and the city should have discussions with Agriculture Canada about the optimum height for new development, said Coun. Riley Brockington.

“Taggart deserves a decision, I respect that. But I respect even more the agricultural research and the value of what’s on at Agriculture Canada,” he said.

Every incremental new development around the perimeter of the farm will create different shadows on the farm at different times of the day, Beck told the committee.

“That will absolutely have an impact on what we can do, what time of year, how reliable our data is, what the impact will be on Canadians and the food security of Canadians. Absolutely. The more we do this, the more difficult it is going to be,” said Beck.

Brockington put forward a motion to limit the height of each of the two towers to 14 storeys. The motion failed.

The committee heard that Taggart has been at work on the plans for more than two years, and limiting the height of the towers to 14 storeys would reduce number of units.

“This is a significant reduction of almost 40 per cent in terms of the total density. And at this point in time, we’re not prepared to entertain such a drastic reduction in the tower height that is proposed by councillor (Brockington),” said Derek Howe, Taggart’s vice president of development.

Howe said Taggart had complied with all of the city’s requirements.

“All levels of government are currently requesting more housing supply to be built,” he said. “We have complied with all of the policy procedures, studies, four rounds of technical comments to go back and forth with planning staff. We’ve made a number of changes, modifications to the project.”

The spectre of legal action on the part of either Taggart or Agriculture Canada was raised several times.

Tim Marc, senior legal counsel for the city, noted that the federal government is not bound by the Planning Act when it comes to the Experimental Farm itself. But Agriculture Canada is not in an “enhanced position” to appeal what happens outside its own land, he said.

When it comes to the legal right to sunlight, that was abolished in Ontario in 1880, six years before the Central Experimental Farm was established by legislation. A case based on sunlight would be a difficult case to make before the Ontario Land Tribunal, he said. In Marc’s opinion, it would be difficult for Agriculture Canada to make a case that it should be compensated for 13 hectares of lost research land.

Beck said there will be a “tipping point” after which it no longer makes sense financial or administrative sense to do research on the land, but she’s not sure what that point would be. It’s not just the value of the land, it’s also the value it has to the city as a space everyone can enjoy, she said.

“I would note there is some irony in developers saying that they would like to build around the farm because they’ll have this fabulous view of the farms, this bucolic vistitation possible every day. Well, that’s not going to be the case if we have enough development casting shade over the farm.”

https://ottawacitizen.com/news/local...-a-second-time
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  #207  
Old Posted Sep 20, 2023, 8:38 PM
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What a mess...
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  #208  
Old Posted Sep 20, 2023, 8:50 PM
zzptichka zzptichka is online now
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Did anyone ask the scientists the specific yearly amount of sunlight radiation they would lose? I bet they wouldn't want to produce these numbers.

The city/developer could've hired some Carleton postgrad student to do the math. Could've been a solid mic drop moment.

Pretty stupid of them not doing that. The whole mess is literally over a few minutes worth of UV radiation per year.
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  #209  
Old Posted Sep 20, 2023, 9:04 PM
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Originally Posted by zzptichka View Post
Did anyone ask the scientists the specific yearly amount of sunlight radiation they would lose? I bet they wouldn't want to produce these numbers.

The city/developer could've hired some Carleton postgrad student to do the math. Could've been a solid mic drop moment.

Pretty stupid of them not doing that. The whole mess is literally over a few minutes worth of UV radiation per year.
I would guess the eggheads are more concerned about walls of towers going up over the years than the effect of these two developments alone. I wonder if the city could draw up a CDP specifically for the farm and consult with the farm using shadow studies to determine allowable building massing. I bet if actual science was applied, we would find that taller towers with smaller floorplates are more compatible with the farm than shorter towers with larger floorplates. That would be a hell of a blow to the NIMBYs and it would please me very much.
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  #210  
Old Posted Sep 20, 2023, 9:50 PM
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Federal officials mull legal action after highrise development on Carling approved

Mia Jensen, OBJ
September 20, 2023 4:18 PM ET




A controversial highrise proposal has been approved by the city’s planning and housing committee for the second time, but federal officials are threatening to pursue legal action over the proposal’s impact on the neighbouring Central Experimental Farm.

Proposed by Taggart Realty Management, the plan involves the construction of two residential towers of 16 and 27 storeys at 1081 Carling Ave. near the Civic Hospital Campus.

Originally approved by the planning and housing committee in August, the proposal was sent back to committee by council after it was determined that Agriculture and Agri-Food Canada (AAFC) and the National Capital Commission weren’t given enough notice to appear at the meeting.

Committee members voted nine to three on Wednesday to once again approve the proposed development, which will now go to city council for final approval Sept. 27.

The project has been contentious, receiving significant pushback from community groups, as well as from advocates concerned that shadows cast by the towers will affect research at the experimental farm.

“Our researchers need to work in a controlled environment,” said Stefanie Beck, deputy minister of AAFC. “This requires predictable levels of sunlight, moisture, climate and soil. The research projects on this site cannot be easily moved elsewhere. If you do allow this development or go ahead as is, you should know that millions of dollars and decades of research will be compromised.”

Thirteen hectares of land on the site will potentially be unusable for research purposes, according to AAFC representatives.

Beck said in her delegation that the AAFC is prepared to take legal action over their concerns.

“Our concerns today should also be understood to extend to future development plans around the farm,” said Beck. “We are hoping not to have to take any such action, but we are losing access to research facilities that cost millions of dollars. If we’re being asked to mitigate, there’s a cost to that.”

Tim Marc, senior legal counsel for the city, said liability should not be a major concern in the committee’s decision-making.

“Agriculture Canada would have the possibility of appealing it to the (Ontario Lands) Tribunal if they do not support council’s decision, as would the applicant,” he said. “The position advanced by AAFC is a novel position. I didn’t find anything in the case law that would support it.”

The area surrounding the experimental farm was identified in the city’s Official Plan as a prime location for intensification. Other proposals with similar impacts on the farm, including a highrise project on Baseline Road at Fisher Avenue, will go before committee in the coming months.

Councillors raised concerns that Wednesday’s decision could be precedent-setting.

“The city took two years to develop an Official Plan and intensification on Carling (Avenue) was part of that plan, so it feels like we’re playing catch-up here,” said Somerset Coun. Ariel Troster.

She added that the challenge is in balancing the need for more new housing to address the city’s ongoing crisis with the need to protect the experimental farm’s research into food security and climate change.

“We need stronger guidelines and I think we need to know very clearly what heights would be considered acceptable,” Troster said. “Then, as a city, we need to decide if it’s acceptable to us in terms of our growth needs. This feels very piecemeal. There are many developments in the process right now. Developers need to know now if they need to revise their plans.”

Despite concerns, the Taggart proposal will go to full council unamended. A directive from River Ward Coun. Riley Brockington will ensure that city staff work with AAFC and the NCC to assess how future developments could impact the experimental farm. His motion to limit the height of the towers to 14 storeys, however, was defeated in an eight to four vote.

Coun. Jeff Leiper, the committee chair, said that, ultimately, the proposal meets all the guidelines set out by the city.

“I’m going to caution that this committee’s job has been very strictly given to it under the Planning Act, which is to consider the merits of a rezoning application under the policies and guidelines that guide development in Ontario,” he said.

“The federal minister may speak to us … about the impact that our planning decision might have on their farm, but it doesn’t affect the decision that we, nonetheless, need to make, which is on the planning merits of the file.”

Taggart vice-president of development Derek Howe told reporters he was happy with the committee’s decision but declined to comment further.

During the meeting, Howe said that Taggart has complied with all policy procedures throughout the process.

Another representative added the company has spent 24 months on the project to date, which included four rounds of technical comments with staff.

“While we didn’t meet directly with AAFC, we had the benefit of their written comments and exchanges between them and staff,” the representative said. “All of those rounds yielded changes to the building design. Even though we didn’t meet directly, we were aware of their concerns and Taggart and the design team have taken steps to mitigate those concerns directly.”

https://obj.ca/federal-officials-leg...ling-approved/
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  #211  
Old Posted Sep 21, 2023, 1:55 AM
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Originally Posted by zzptichka View Post
Did anyone ask the scientists the specific yearly amount of sunlight radiation they would lose? I bet they wouldn't want to produce these numbers.

The city/developer could've hired some Carleton postgrad student to do the math. Could've been a solid mic drop moment.

Pretty stupid of them not doing that. The whole mess is literally over a few minutes worth of UV radiation per year.
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Originally Posted by Harley613 View Post
I would guess the eggheads are more concerned about walls of towers going up over the years than the effect of these two developments alone. I wonder if the city could draw up a CDP specifically for the farm and consult with the farm using shadow studies to determine allowable building massing. I bet if actual science was applied, we would find that taller towers with smaller floorplates are more compatible with the farm than shorter towers with larger floorplates. That would be a hell of a blow to the NIMBYs and it would please me very much.
I believe they did speak to the amount of critical light lost, and gave a rough estimate of what height would be "acceptable" when pressed. They even offered to sit down with the City and developer architects to crunch the numbers and come up with a plan that would limit negative impacts on the Farm.

The Farm confined the impact and threatened legal action, yet thus was still past with a good majority. I don't think there's anything the Farm could have saufpd or done to pause the project, so what was the point.

Might have been better to reject and let the Feds and OLT duke it out.
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  #212  
Old Posted Sep 21, 2023, 12:36 PM
OTSkyline OTSkyline is offline
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It's time the farm gets much more open and honest about what activities are going on there, on which site, which ones are critical, etc...

The city keeps growing and Carling Avenue is prime for development, we can't go through this every single time something will be proposed for Carling going forward. Is it a specific parcel that hosts most "sensitive" research activities? etc..

Like others have mentioned, come up with a plan that would be publicly available and black and white and could take out all of the guessing game and the uncertainty for future proposals.
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  #213  
Old Posted Sep 27, 2023, 2:43 PM
SL123 SL123 is online now
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Approved by council 18 Yeas/7 Nays
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  #214  
Old Posted Sep 27, 2023, 2:53 PM
Proof Sheet Proof Sheet is offline
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Approved by council 18 Yeas/7 Nays
Who was the Councillor (male voice) who seemed to interrupt this item with a quite defiant 'dissent' statement. It seemed to catch the Mayor by surprise with how abrupt it was stated.
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  #215  
Old Posted Sep 27, 2023, 3:04 PM
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Who was the Councillor (male voice) who seemed to interrupt this item with a quite defiant 'dissent' statement. It seemed to catch the Mayor by surprise with how abrupt it was stated.
Sounds like councilor Brockington
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