[Halifax] Battle of the Atlantic Place | -- | -- | Proposed

[Colin May]

]I saw this article today. My initial thought was while it is certainly a nice-to-have, how can govts justify over $200 million for this when we are in such dire need of a replacement hospital and other far more important things? It is a good example of how the loudest squeaky-wheels tend to get what they want from the public purse instead of the most important priorities being dealt with by govt.[/QUOTE]
100 thumbs up.
Council : Just say - NO

[someone123]

Originally Posted by Keith P.

I saw this article today. My initial thought was while it is certainly a nice-to-have, how can govts justify over $200 million for this when we are in such dire need of a replacement hospital and other far more important things? It is a good example of how the loudest squeaky-wheels tend to get what they want from the public purse instead of the most important priorities being dealt with by govt.

On the one hand I think this is true, but on the other hand I don't think the federal government is going to stop handing out goodies because some people in Halifax protest and abstain from asking for somewhat frivolous funding. The federal government will just fund more museums in Ontario or wherever (i.e. national museum #15 for Ottawa or whatever they are up to), if that's what they're doing.

Consequently I think it's a mistake that Halifax hasn't had a broad range of shovel-ready projects in the past that could be used to leverage federal funding programs as much as possible. It is a no-brainer for regional council to conditionally offer funding of $20M or so for a national museum in Halifax if the federal government might put in $100M or more.

[Keith P.]

Originally Posted by someone123

On the one hand I think this is true, but on the other hand I don't think the federal government is going to stop handing out goodies because some people in Halifax protest and abstain from asking for somewhat frivolous funding. The federal government will just fund more museums in Ontario or wherever (i.e. national museum #15 for Ottawa or whatever they are up to), if that's what they're doing.

Consequently I think it's a mistake that Halifax hasn't had a broad range of shovel-ready projects in the past that could be used to leverage federal funding programs as much as possible. It is a no-brainer for regional council to conditionally offer funding of $20M or so for a national museum in Halifax if the federal government might put in $100M or more.

Your points are all true. However I would not be at all surprised when the province finally does get its act together on a hospital, the Feds will turn it down again by saying, "Well, we just gave you x, y and z including $100 million for that museum on the waterfront. If this is so important, why didn't you ask for this then?"

We no longer have the excuse of having Halifax return NDP MPs back to Parliament either. Both Halifax and Dartmouth are represented by members on the govt side in Ottawa. It is remarkable how little they have been able to deliver so far.

[someone123]

Originally Posted by Keith P.

Your points are all true. However I would not be at all surprised when the province finally does get its act together on a hospital, the Feds will turn it down again by saying, "Well, we just gave you x, y and z including $100 million for that museum on the waterfront. If this is so important, why didn't you ask for this then?"

It depends on what is being discussed and what the federal agenda is. If the topic is severe infrastructure deficits, the hospital comes out on top (and you look stupid if you imply that the biggest problem in your city is the lack of a museum). If they want to invest in transit, the cities need to come up with transit projects. If they want to blow money on cultural funding, the museum project is trotted out. There needs to be a well-considered project plan suitable for any conceivable major source of federal funding.

We no longer have the excuse of having Halifax return NDP MPs back to Parliament either. Both Halifax and Dartmouth are represented by members on the govt side in Ottawa. It is remarkable how little they have been able to deliver so far.

One big disappointment is that the first round of federal transit spending was framed as a "big city" plan that did not involve the likes of Halifax. I have heard the reason why Halifax was excluded is partly that it doesn't have any ambitious shovel-ready transit projects. This is exactly the kind of failure that happens again and again when it comes to Halifax infrastructure funding.

Here in Vancouver we had a list of billion-dollar transit projects. Halifax Transit's equivalent is a $1M pilot project to try out batteries in a few buses. Even if all of those Halifax projects get funded, it will never be enough for the funding there to be proportional and it will never really be enough to make a significant difference. Transit ridership in Halifax has actually been dropping even though the city and transit service area is growing in population!

Here's a sample project for London, Ontario, which is about the same size as Halifax:

http://www.lfpress.com/2017/03/23/lo...sit-referendum

It's in the hundreds of millions, and includes a 900 meter transit tunnel for part of downtown. Something along these lines would work great in Halifax (put a tunnel under Barrington and link up with the ferries), but seems far beyond the ambitions of Halifax bureaucrats and politicians even if it is the kind of investment the city needs.

[Keith P.]

Well, I suspect a big part of the problem is the "don't change anything" attitude of many in this city when it comes to our built environment, which spreads to certain members of council as well. Can you imagine the outrage that digging up Barrington would cause? It would be Nova Center x100. While the White Elephant Oval was rightly opposed by many, many other things that get discussed periodically like an Arm Bridge, widening of main entry/exit arteries, relocation of the Halterm container pier, commuter rail, whatever - never get any traction here because there is always some ox that gets gored which wins the day. And then you have the incessantly negative media, from CBC to Bousquet, that amplifies any negative voices far beyond any reason, be it for useful municipal infrastructure or privately-developed tall buildings.

[Colin May]

Liberals make Infrastructure decisions despite what HRM decides is a priority. The big money won't be rolling out this year, a hospital is job one but it does not have the fizz of arts centre or museum. Savage went to visit his buddies on budget day and it was a waste of time and money, just a bunch of Liberals backslapping each other.

[OldDartmouthMark]

I think the bigger problem is that many Haligonians are stuck in this uber-practical mindset, that no money should be spent on anything that doesn't satisfy some practical need. In their minds, large projects like this that are intended to celebrate Halifax and its history are a waste of money because they do nothing to decrease traffic congestion or whatever.

The reality is that projects like these can help define a city and make it memorable. It helps citizens and visitors alike to understand the city and how it came to be what it is today.

Besides, as someone123 said, there is money out there that the feds will dole out to another city because we're still struggling with 'asking for too much'. Why can't we expect to have both infrastructure/hospitals and large projects like this, theatres or stadiums, etc.? We as citizens should be demanding that our government stand up for us and fight to bring the federal funds to the east rather than bickering among ourselves for how the chickenscratch that's tossed to us should be used.

As long as we pigeonhole ourselves into never striving to become bigger and greater, then we will in fact guarantee that change will never occur...

[Keith P.]

You cannot eat only junk food, candy and desserts and expect to thrive, sometimes you have to eat your vegetables. Projects like these are the junk food of politics. We have far too many shiny new 4-pad arenas, designer libraries and Ovals. That kind of candy is all that we seem to get built by public money these days. Meanwhile our hospitals are unsafe for patients, our roads and bridges are crumbling, and our social safety net is full of holes. Enough is enough. Priorities please!!!

[fenwick16]

Originally Posted by OldDartmouthMark

I think the bigger problem is that many Haligonians are stuck in this uber-practical mindset, that no money should be spent on anything that doesn't satisfy some practical need. In their minds, large projects like this that are intended to celebrate Halifax and its history are a waste of money because they do nothing to decrease traffic congestion or whatever.

The reality is that projects like these can help define a city and make it memorable. It helps citizens and visitors alike to understand the city and how it came to be what it is today.

Besides, as someone123 said, there is money out there that the feds will dole out to another city because we're still struggling with 'asking for too much'. Why can't we expect to have both infrastructure/hospitals and large projects like this, theatres or stadiums, etc.? We as citizens should be demanding that our government stand up for us and fight to bring the federal funds to the east rather than bickering among ourselves for how the chickenscratch that's tossed to us should be used.

As long as we pigeonhole ourselves into never striving to become bigger and greater, then we will in fact guarantee that change will never occur...

Well put, I agree. The Battle of the Atlantic was an important part of winning World War II and Canada was instrumental in the victory. This is something to build a memorial museum to.

I hope that the majority of the $200 million will be put towards the exhibits, with the building architecture being of secondary importance. I hope that money won't be wasted on a futuristic type of building.

[HFX]

Originally Posted by Keith P.

You cannot eat only junk food, candy and desserts and expect to thrive, sometimes you have to eat your vegetables. Projects like these are the junk food of politics. We have far too many shiny new 4-pad arenas, designer libraries and Ovals. That kind of candy is all that we seem to get built by public money these days. Meanwhile our hospitals are unsafe for patients, our roads and bridges are crumbling, and our social safety net is full of holes. Enough is enough. Priorities please!!!

Last time I checked there was only one "designer" library and one oval, if that's too many for you then that's your prerogative; however, I know many communities across HRM who would love more modern areas to congregate and socialize, or be productive. Also, I really have no idea where you're finding these crumbling bridges. Have you been in the city recently? You know that they're redecking the MacDonald right? For heavens sake, a replacement bridge just finished construction in Fall River last year that arguably didn't need to be replaced for a few years. You're not making a strong case for your unnecessary distaste of projects that liven the city and attract further funding as previously mentioned. Federal funding for projects like these will happen regardless, so denying it is idiotic. Yes, we need other investments in our hospitals, etc, but a project like this doesn't mean we're completely draining the coffers by any means.

[Keith P.]

Originally Posted by HFX

Last time I checked there was only one "designer" library and one oval, if that's too many for you then that's your prerogative; however, I know many communities across HRM who would love more modern areas to congregate and socialize, or be productive. Also, I really have no idea where you're finding these crumbling bridges. Have you been in the city recently? You know that they're redecking the MacDonald right? For heavens sake, a replacement bridge just finished construction in Fall River last year that arguably didn't need to be replaced for a few years. You're not making a strong case for your unnecessary distaste of projects that liven the city and attract further funding as previously mentioned. Federal funding for projects like these will happen regardless, so denying it is idiotic. Yes, we need other investments in our hospitals, etc, but a project like this doesn't mean we're completely draining the coffers by any means.

Keep deluding yourself. Nothing could be further from reality.

[TheNovaScotian]

For a city that was founded for strategic reasons and stood as the Warden of the North, it's colonial history is celebrated but Halifax's contribution to WWII are not. In Halifax there is one of few remnants of the Second World War in North America at York Redoubt. The only reminders of the sub net that spanned the mouth of the harbour and kept the Allied ships safe as the convoys organized are some rusted out pill boxes that aren't safe for the public and a ship deteriorating at dock. I spoke to a veteran that was involved with this project and looked over all the information he had and it was clear they wanted to change that.

This is a project that could add another piece to the waterfront that could inform the public and visitors that use the waterfront every year. It's exactly the type of thing that other cities dream of, instead we complain about $20 million which is a fraction of the total project. Federal money would be kicked in from streams we wouldn't already be receiving it from. Just because the hospital needs to be replaced doesn't mean the province should stop contributing to cultural endeavours. The province owes its economic survival to Halifax and needs to pony up to projects like this that enrich life in the city. There should be a continuous list of projects downtown for the government to invest in, it's been deprived of fundings as every half cooked idea in rural NS gets the red carpet treatment. We are in the odd position that the feds are wanting to help, we should take it.

[IanWatson]

I don't really have strong opinions about this proposal one way or another. BUT, if the proponents are smart they better have a plan for relocating The Wave. "Save the Wave" would be an unneeded distraction when trying to get this project built.

[Colin May]

Originally Posted by RyeJay

2017 is gearing up to be Halifax's year to shine!

The HMCS Sackville preserved in the Battle of the Atlantic Place will be a national media highlight while celebrating Canada's 150th birthday. In the same year, Canada will also be commemorating 100 years since the Halifax Explosion.

The Halifax Central Library will be complete.
The Nova Centre will be up and running.
King's Wharf will hopefully see completion by this time.

Much more of the downtown will be developed. Surface parking lots will be a thing of scarcity! 2017 is going to be a big year for this city.

This Mar 3 2014 post was right about one thing - the library.
Is HRM expected to be the first donor for this project or do the proponents have private sponsors waiting to jump in when we promise $20 million ?
Can anyone see MacNeil telling people who don't have a doctor that this project is just what Nova Scotia needs for jobs, growing the economy etc ?
One massive and expensive project which will bleed away money from other, and more essential projects. I like museums as much as the next person but I'm sure a much cheaper memorial to one segment of one war can be just as interesting. Where would we find the money to preserve the CSS Acadia and tell the story of the exploits of surveying the waters of eastern Canada and the North ?

[OldDartmouthMark]

Originally Posted by Colin May

This Mar 3 2014 post was right about one thing - the library.
Is HRM expected to be the first donor for this project or do the proponents have private sponsors waiting to jump in when we promise $20 million ?
Can anyone see MacNeil telling people who don't have a doctor that this project is just what Nova Scotia needs for jobs, growing the economy etc ?
One massive and expensive project which will bleed away money from other, and more essential projects. I like museums as much as the next person but I'm sure a much cheaper memorial to one segment of one war can be just as interesting. Where would we find the money to preserve the CSS Acadia and tell the story of the exploits of surveying the waters of eastern Canada and the North ?

If you're waiting for McNeil to do anything sensible regarding healthcare you shouldn't hold your breath. A replacement for the VG? Not under his watch, unless something new has come out since his 'plan' of last year:
http://www.metronews.ca/news/halifax...hospital-.html

Meanwhile a group is going through great efforts to save the last corvette, which would involve some funding from different levels of government, funding which wouldn't be put towards a hospital anyhow.

We need healthcare, but we also have a responsibility to future generations to preserve our history. Why not aspire to do both?

[Keith P.]

Originally Posted by Colin May

This Mar 3 2014 post was right about one thing - the library.
Is HRM expected to be the first donor for this project or do the proponents have private sponsors waiting to jump in when we promise $20 million ?
Can anyone see MacNeil telling people who don't have a doctor that this project is just what Nova Scotia needs for jobs, growing the economy etc ?
One massive and expensive project which will bleed away money from other, and more essential projects. I like museums as much as the next person but I'm sure a much cheaper memorial to one segment of one war can be just as interesting. Where would we find the money to preserve the CSS Acadia and tell the story of the exploits of surveying the waters of eastern Canada and the North ?

Well, he is in full pre-election pandering mode now, handing out money to every politically-correct squeaky-wheel group. But I think this would be a stretch even for that.

OTOH, HRM could probably fund the entire project themselves and not even miss the cash. They have more money than they know what to do with right now. And of course Junior Trudeau is spending like there is no tomorrow.

Unfortunately, the province is the meat in the bankrupt sandwich. It should not provide money to this project given the other far more vital priorities. To suggest "let's do everything" is exactly what got us into this mess in the first place. You don't sign an agreement of purchase for a new McMansion when the repossession order is being nailed to your existing slum housing.

[OldDartmouthMark]

Which is precisely the reason that Halifax has been in the state that it has been in... in some peoples' minds we're a "have not" area and we don't deserve to have anything. That is the attitude that put Halifax into decline decades ago.

Some of us want to continue along those lines, I suppose... no library, no museums, no performing arts, no bike lanes, no public skating facilities, transit that is 50 years behind the times, all because "we can't afford it". Meanwhile places like London, Ont taking advantage of federal money and are moving forward with large projects like this, improving the city bit by bit while in Halifax we all scream that "we can't afford it!". Yet, if you ask people why they enjoy living where they do, items such as these are examples that they give. So it seems to me that investment into the 'public good' can actually pay off in attracting new residents and retaining the ones that are here...

Gawd, if some of you put as much effort into figuring out how we can get things done rather than looking for reasons that we can't, then maybe there would be some progress here.

[Ziobrop]

Originally Posted by Keith P.

Well, he is in full pre-election pandering mode now, handing out money to every politically-correct squeaky-wheel group. But I think this would be a stretch even for that.

OTOH, HRM could probably fund the entire project themselves and not even miss the cash. They have more money than they know what to do with right now. And of course Junior Trudeau is spending like there is no tomorrow.

Unfortunately, the province is the meat in the bankrupt sandwich. It should not provide money to this project given the other far more vital priorities. To suggest "let's do everything" is exactly what got us into this mess in the first place. You don't sign an agreement of purchase for a new McMansion when the repossession order is being nailed to your existing slum housing.

except rumors of our demise or greatly exaggerated. we actually are not all that bad financially compared to other provinces - we are a long way from bankrupt. But people, such as yourself, have the idea that all debt is bad, so the province will do anything and everything it can to not have to borrow money to build a new hospital, twin highways and fix a bunch of other stuff that needs fixing. I could find the money for this easily in what is spent on dubious economic development projects, not even including what we gave the Irving's.

The Sackville needs to be indoors. she was built cheaply, as she only needed to last the war. If we want to preserve her, and we should, since she is the last of her type, and was of great importance to all allied navies, then we should fund this project.

[Keith P.]

Originally Posted by Ziobrop

except rumors of our demise or greatly exaggerated. we actually are not all that bad financially compared to other provinces - we are a long way from bankrupt. But people, such as yourself, have the idea that all debt is bad, so the province will do anything and everything it can to not have to borrow money to build a new hospital, twin highways and fix a bunch of other stuff that needs fixing. I could find the money for this easily in what is spent on dubious economic development projects, not even including what we gave the Irving's.

The Sackville needs to be indoors. she was built cheaply, as she only needed to last the war. If we want to preserve her, and we should, since she is the last of her type, and was of great importance to all allied navies, then we should fund this project.

Meanwhile, you cannot drink the water in our main tertiary-care hospital.

Priorities, please.

[Colin May]

Damn the cost full speed ahead !!
Who threw out the $200 million number ?
Let us accept that for the moment.
HRM throws in $20 million.
Canadian donors throw in $50 million
Ottawa throws in $65 million
Nova Scotia throws in $65
If Ottawa throws in $65 million for a population of less than 1,000,000 other provinces on a pro rata basis will want $2.3 billion.
The cost needs to be slashed and HRM needs to decide its own priorities for capital expenditure and I place affordable housing for low income people, a performance auditorium and a civic museum well ahead of this project. I know a convoy vet and I'll ask him how he feels about the issue.
Nova Scotia was given the Maritime Museum by a private donor.