PHILADELPHIA | Lowrise/General Developments Thread

[iamrobk]

Tbf, I'm not sure if there are any solid plans for what will happen to the roundhouse once the police move to their new headquarters. I guess it could be converted to condos, apartments, or a hotel, but the costs may be so high that it could easily make more sense to demolish it and start fresh.

[Redddog]

I think the stadiums should all remain clustered. But if your're looking to be in Center City, 2nd street to 3rd. Spring Garden to Callowhill makes sense. The only drawback is the lack of immediate access to public transit.

You could walk it but it's a bit of a hike.

[allovertown]

Originally Posted by PHL10

The roundhouse is cool in a way but is so anti-urban that it is practically beyond redemption IMO. Maybe if you tore down the walls, activated the lower floors and tried to stretch it to the sidewalk, something could work I suppose.

100% this.

I feel like I'm generally one of the more preservationist minded voices on this board, but for me it can't be just about preservation. Philly is so full of old beautiful buildings that are a picture of perfect urbanism, so that preservation and urbanist principles generally go hand in hand here.

That is not the case with the roundhouse. As a work of art it is unique and worth saving, but as a functional urban building, it's a disaster. This city isn't an art gallery for architecture lovers to just statically look at.

Sure, you could take down the walls and have it meet the street better, but then you're changing it so much and taking away from its appeal for preservation in the first place.

Also, from a standpoint completely removed from architecture, the roundhouse, unwelcoming and hostile to those walking by and literally shaped like handcuffs, pretty aptly personifies the relationship between cops in this city and the public they're supposed to serve and protect. As they move into a new building and hopefully start to undergo some fundamental changes to how they operate, it may be cathartic to crush this relic of a hopefully soon bygone era of policing into dust.

[mcgrath618]

Originally Posted by allovertown

100% this.

I feel like i'm generally one of the more preservationist minded voices on this board, but for me it can't be just about preservation. Philly is so full of old beautiful buildings that are a picture of perfect urbanism, so that preservation and urbanist principles generally go hand in hand here.

That is not the case with the roundhouse. As a work of art it is unique and worth saving, but as a functional urban building, it's a disaster. This city isn't an art gallery for architecture lovers to just statically look at.

Sure, you could take down the walls and have it meet the street better, but then you're changing it so much and taking away from its appeal for preservation in the first place.

Also, from a standpoint completely removed from architecture, the roundhouse, unwelcoming and hostile to those walking by and literally shaped like handcuffs, pretty aptly personifies the relationship between cops in this city and the public they're supposed to serve and protect. As they move into a new building and hopefully start to undergo some fundamental changes to how they operate, it may be cathartic to crush this relic of a hopefully soon bygone era of policing into dust.

+1

[Knight Hospitaller]

I won't opine on the political imagery, but I second all other negative observations about the Roundhouse. I found it really interesting as a kid, but, even if preservation worthy, I hear that it's in terrible shape. What's someone going to use it for that makes it worth fixing?

If we define Center City as Vine to South and River to River (and maybe across to Schuylkill Yards), the suggestions of the Spring Garden/Callowhill area make no sense. Even if on the Sixers radar, it's just trading one warehouse wasteland for another. Market East and West (and 30th) are current or developing hubs of activity, with great or decent transit connections. The northeast quadrant around Chinatown, while currently a patchwork of surface lots, also has the connections and could quickly develop into a more vibrant area of Center City.

[mcgrath618]

That block that the Roundhouse is on is actually perfect. It’s within walking distance of Market East, Franklin Square, Jefferson Station, Chinatown, etc.

The more I consider it, the more I’m convinced it’s the best place for them to move if move they must.

[Vince_]

Originally Posted by Urbanthusiat

Ultimately my preference is that the Sixers stay put. But if they have to move...

Edit: Here is WFC to scale, rotated to align with the street grid overlaid at 8th and Market. You'd have to redesign the peripheral areas, but the arena portion itself fits.

8th and Market is the dream location that would match MSG and Capitol One Arena in terms of location and access to public transit. It would really be a game changer for the city. Think about hosting the DNC or NCAA tournament games right next to the hotel district. Here's the Barclay's center from Brooklyn dropped in the 8th and Market lot with the same scale.

[eixample]

It would also be a "game changer" to just build some nice apartment and office buildings at the Disney Hole. I don't even know if there will be any more political conventions since they are kind of useless (we hosted DNC 2016 without a center city arena for what it's worth). So really we're just talking about basketball games and concerts.

I can see it being kind of cool to have an arena at 8th and Market, especially if you are a Sixers fan. And being near PATCO, MFL, BSL (sort of), and Regional Rail does make it seem possible that there would be be good public transit usage for the site. And there already are a fair bit of parking garages. But all these suggestions fall into the same category of "big event development projects" that urban leaders in this country have fallen prey to for decades. Most are a failure or just limited successes and cost a lot of money in infrastructure and/or tax breaks.

[mcgrath618]

You’d get all the benefits of 8th and Market at 8th and Race, without demolishing any historically relevant structures ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

[Vince_]

Originally Posted by eixample

It would also be a "game changer" to just build some nice apartment and office buildings at the Disney Hole. I don't even know if there will be any more political conventions since they are kind of useless (we hosted DNC 2016 without a center city arena for what it's worth). So really we're just talking about basketball games and concerts.

I can see it being kind of cool to have an arena at 8th and Market, especially if you are a Sixers fan. And being near PATCO, MFL, BSL (sort of), and Regional Rail does make it seem possible that there would be be good public transit usage for the site. And there already are a fair bit of parking garages. But all these suggestions fall into the same category of "big event development projects" that urban leaders in this country have fallen prey to for decades. Most are a failure or just limited successes and cost a lot of money in infrastructure and/or tax breaks.

Have you ever been to an event at MSG or in DC? It's incredible to actually be in the city before and after the game or concert. The atmosphere is fantastic and the added foot traffic would be a big deal for the area. Go to 8th and Market on a week night, it's desolate and a little sketchy at times. Now imagine 20,000 people going to a concert on a Tuesday night. They go to bars/restaurants etc. It would make the Gallery (Fashion District) into a vibrant entertainment district. This is probably the most assessable location in the whole city via public transit besides city hall. Regional Rail, Patco, MFL, BSL spur and very walkable.

I agree that taxpayer for stadium stuff is usually bullshit but this isn't public money for the Linc that is used only 15 times a year or building the Union stadium in Chester with promises of a rejuvenation that obviously would never come. The WFC hosts 250+ events per year and I'm sure this would match that. This is a chance for Philly to be 2nd to only MSG in the United States with the location/density of their arena.

[allovertown]

Originally Posted by eixample

It would also be a "game changer" to just build some nice apartment and office buildings at the Disney Hole. I don't even know if there will be any more political conventions since they are kind of useless (we hosted DNC 2016 without a center city arena for what it's worth). So really we're just talking about basketball games and concerts.

I can see it being kind of cool to have an arena at 8th and Market, especially if you are a Sixers fan. And being near PATCO, MFL, BSL (sort of), and Regional Rail does make it seem possible that there would be be good public transit usage for the site. And there already are a fair bit of parking garages. But all these suggestions fall into the same category of "big event development projects" that urban leaders in this country have fallen prey to for decades. Most are a failure or just limited successes and cost a lot of money in infrastructure and/or tax breaks.

Yea this is basically where I am. 8th and market is a pretty great location as far as these things go, but I don't think the benefit is any greater than most of the other big plans that have been floated there.

If the sixers billionaire owners want to build it there, great. But the city has no business giving them any funding to do so, especially when there is already a perfectly fine arena for them to play in that the city contributed money to.

We're not some small market. We're the fourth largest media market in the country and the Philadelphia 76ers are a storied NBA franchise that is always near the top of merchandise sales despite not winning a championship in 40 years. There is no place they could move that would be better for them financially, and if they did move, smaller market teams would be climbing over each other to move here and fill the void. They're not going anywhere, they have zero leverage. No reason we should be bullied into funding anything.

[eixample]

Originally Posted by Vince_

Have you ever been to an event at MSG or in DC? It's incredible to actually be in the city before and after the game or concert. The atmosphere is fantastic and the added foot traffic would be a big deal for the area. Go to 8th and Market on a week night, it's desolate and a little sketchy at times. Now imagine 20,000 people going to a concert on a Tuesday night. They go to bars/restaurants etc. It would make the Gallery (Fashion District) into a vibrant entertainment district. This is probably the most assessable location in the whole city via public transit besides city hall. Regional Rail, Patco, MFL, BSL spur and very walkable.

I agree that taxpayer for stadium stuff is usually bullshit but this isn't public money for the Linc that is used only 15 times a year or building the Union stadium in Chester with promises of a rejuvenation that obviously would never come. The WFC hosts 250+ events per year and I'm sure this would match that. This is a chance for Philly to be 2nd to only MSG in the United States with the location/density of their arena.

I used to live in NYC and went to various hockey games and concerts at MSG. There is definitely something magical about going by subway to a Flyers-Rangers game on enemy turf.

You say that 8th and Market is desolate and sketchy now, and I agree. But that's because there is nothing there. I'm not in favor of keeping it as surface lots but instead imagining the alternate scenario where there are 500+ apartments and office space in that block.

I'm not convinced that a Philly MSG is way to go, but you do make a good case for it.

One last thing - I don't like the idea of the Flyers and Sixers splitting up. If they were both to move to a new building (unlikely since the Flyers just plunked down a lot of money for a rehab of the WFC), I would be slightly more in favor of a potential move. I get both teams want their own source of revenue, but is that a luxury that the city/state should be putting their money behind?

[Knight Hospitaller]

Originally Posted by allovertown

despite not winning a championship in 40 years

I'm old.

[KDD]

I realize this is not a "sexy" pick by any means, but why not find a stretch of land around Conshohocken/Whitemarsh/Plymouth Meeting? Its connected to the regional rail, fantastic access to major highways as well. I seems to me if the area is going to have another arena, why not on more of the less the opposite side of town?

A Center City arena makes no sense to me. If City City was dead after 5 PM and people could easily access it (like so many downtowns, easy access because they are dead after 5 PM) that would make sense. I don't see the point, CC doesn't need help, other parts of the region certainly do.

[allovertown]

Originally Posted by eixample

One last thing - I don't like the idea of the Flyers and Sixers splitting up. If they were both to move to a new building (unlikely since the Flyers just plunked down a lot of money for a rehab of the WFC), I would be slightly more in favor of a potential move. I get both teams want their own source of revenue, but is that a luxury that the city/state should be putting their money behind?

My source is on sixers, so no clue what flyers are thinking. But while i don't think the recent investment precludes a move a decade from now, it's just hard to see happening.

One thing i do know is that part of the sixers logic for the downtown move, is backed by data they've collected from a bullshit season ticket wait list data harvesting scheme they created a couple of years ago. They're confident that the core of their fanbase is in the city and /or near and willing to use transit. My guess is that the same is not even remotely as true for the flyers and that the vast majority of their fans would expect to be able to drive and park at the arena.

Not to mention the flyers not wanting to lose a revenue stream as you mentioned. It was just a lot easier for them to share a building when they were owned by the same entity.

So I get why they want to split up, but I definitely don't think it makes sense from the city/state perspective to assist them in making it happen.

Originally Posted by Knight Hospitaller

I'm old.

Originally Posted by KDD

I realize this is not a "sexy" pick by any means, but why not find a stretch of land around Conshohocken/Whitemarsh/Plymouth Meeting? Its connected to the regional rail, fantastic access to major highways as well. I seems to me if the area is going to have another arena, why not on more of the less the opposite side of town?

A Center City arena makes no sense to me. If City City was dead after 5 PM and people could easily access it (like so many downtowns, easy access because they are dead after 5 PM) that would make sense. I don't see the point, CC doesn't need help, other parts of the region certainly do.

This is the opposite of everything they're after. Your problem is you're looking at this from the perspective of "how would this help center city?"

They don't give a shit about that. They're trying to make money and a center city location is central to their plans. They would sell the team before they spend money to build an arena in Plymouth whitemarsh.

[City Wide]

Originally Posted by Knight Hospitaller

I'm old.

++++ The 83 season was great. I still remember the party scene in CC after the sweep, unlike anything I've experienced. The City didn't try to manage it, it just happened and it seemed like nobody wanted to go home.

[Boku]

Originally Posted by KDD

I realize this is not a "sexy" pick by any means, but why not find a stretch of land around Conshohocken/Whitemarsh/Plymouth Meeting? Its connected to the regional rail, fantastic access to major highways as well. I seems to me if the area is going to have another arena, why not on more of the less the opposite side of town?

A Center City arena makes no sense to me. If City City was dead after 5 PM and people could easily access it (like so many downtowns, easy access because they are dead after 5 PM) that would make sense. I don't see the point, CC doesn't need help, other parts of the region certainly do.

Imagine trying to compete with LA or Miami for free agents when your stadium is in Plymouth Meeting, lol.

[3rd&Brown]

Originally Posted by Boku

Imagine trying to compete with LA or Miami for free agents when your stadium is in Plymouth Meeting, lol.

+1

What year are we in with these comments? 1988?

8th and Market is the best site.

And I'd rather it feel more like Barclays than MSG.

If they were going to do anything near the river it should be off the Spring Garden stop in that industrial zone on the south side of Spring Garden east of the El, west of Delaware Avenue.

[Nova08]

Originally Posted by Boku

You literally just said they need older white guys to put the young black players in their place, lol.

No, you read what you wanted to read and spun it.

The likes of JJ Redick also include Jimmy Butler who after he left town all but called out Ben Simmons' work ethic.

...move along

Originally Posted by Nephi215

Yup makes perfect sense considering the Sixers have led the NBA in attendance for the last 3 years averaging 20k+ a game. tradition.

And it's been encouraging progress the past few years. But between 2007 - 2017 they averaged in the 13k-17k range. Hate for them to fall back into that with a center city arena.

[MyDadBuiltThat]

Originally Posted by Boku

Imagine trying to compete with LA or Miami for free agents when your stadium is in Plymouth Meeting, lol.

Too true