PHILADELPHIA | Lowrise/General Developments Thread

[City Wide]

Originally Posted by Aaamazarite

Glad they're finally getting rid of that parking lot at 38th and Walnut. Always thought that was booty.

It looks like there might be parking in the rear, with a curb cut on 38th. Penn does love it's parking. In that way it's never gotten away from the 70's. There are two large parking garages within a half block!

This design looks terrible. What a way to take a fine handsome house and spoil it's looks. If you were trying to come up with a sorry design, this is what it would look like. Penn built around a nice little Victorian house at 38th & Locust, just behind this proposal, and got a building that works, but looks nothing like the original. But Penn can say their are into restoration with these eyesores.

[Capsule F]

Originally Posted by iheartphilly

Look closely on the image. The design is really weird on this one. The modern in the rear doesn't mix well at all with the "Victorian??" or classic architecture in the front. I say pick one or the other, but not try to squeeze a combo into one building.

On the contrary, I think it looks chic.

[Kfmcshan]

Re Penn VIP House. Looks like they're destroying the back side of a beautiful building. This is sad to see. If they need more square footage, why don't they build over the corner lot where the current driveway is / where the garden is in the rendering?

[ScreamShatter]

https://www.foxbusiness.com/features...s-rising-costs

Anyone else see this? Is Philly seeing this trend? Philly is much more affordable than other cities, but it is getting more expensive.

[PurpleWhiteOut]

Originally Posted by ScreamShatter

https://www.foxbusiness.com/features...s-rising-costs

Anyone else see this? Is Philly seeing this trend? Philly is much more affordable than other cities, but it is getting more expensive.

I'm not sure. Cities are theoretically getting more expensive BECAUSE people are moving in. If they weren't, it'd still be cheap. I could see this being true in chicago or New York but the thing is as it gets expensive there are new cheaper and up and coming neighborhoods like Kensington or point breeze. Either way this would mean that cities are finally getting re-established and that professionals are already moved in and staying put.

They might be growing equally again in numbers but I have a feeling high earning professionals are a higher percentage of new city dwellers vs cheap suburbs with a long commute.

I work in health care and I'm kind of unhappy that it looks like I cant afford anything near center city (though I'm DEFINITELY not looking in the burbs) but I know thays because people are eagerly moving in which pushes sale prices up.

It also never feels like a fair comparison because "suburbs" is any town in any direction added up together. As long ad the city is still growing, that's a win.

[Milksteak]

Originally Posted by PurpleWhiteOut

I'm not sure. Cities are theoretically getting more expensive BECAUSE people are moving in. If they weren't, it'd still be cheap. I could see this being true in chicago or New York but the thing is as it gets expensive there are new cheaper and up and coming neighborhoods like Kensington or point breeze. Either way this would mean that cities are finally getting re-established and that professionals are already moved in and staying put.

They might be growing equally again in numbers but I have a feeling high earning professionals are a higher percentage of new city dwellers vs cheap suburbs with a long commute.

I work in health care and I'm kind of unhappy that it looks like I cant afford anything near center city (though I'm DEFINITELY not looking in the burbs) but I know thays because people are eagerly moving in which pushes sale prices up.

It also never feels like a fair comparison because "suburbs" is any town in any direction added up together. As long ad the city is still growing, that's a win.

I'm in the burbs and the market is red hot at the moment....I think big cities are getting bigger, and people are coming in from the exurbs, rural areas, and smaller cities. Some people are always going to want the land, better school districts, etc. There is no avoiding it. That being said, I know a number of millennials that never lived in the city, some that lived there and moved to the burbs (such as myself), and some that are never going to leave the city. I think the article is a little overdramatic, besides, generation z is coming of age and will fill those empty dwellings that millennials are leaving. It looks like both the city and the immediate suburbs are growing, and one can't survive without the other...it's all positive for the area and I'm really only seeing good things for both.

[cardeza]

Originally Posted by Milksteak

I'm in the burbs and the market is red hot at the moment....I think big cities are getting bigger, and people are coming in from the exurbs, rural areas, and smaller cities. Some people are always going to want the land, better school districts, etc. There is no avoiding it. That being said, I know a number of millennials that never lived in the city, some that lived there and moved to the burbs (such as myself), and some that are never going to leave the city. I think the article is a little overdramatic, besides, generation z is coming of age and will fill those empty dwellings that millennials are leaving. It looks like both the city and the immediate suburbs are growing, and one can't survive without the other...it's all positive for the area and I'm really only seeing good things for both.

This narrative has been pushed for several years now- and yet nearly every major city in the US is adding population. One of my issues with these "millenials are leaving cities in droves" articles is that they all presume that MOST millenials want to own a home and are primarily driven by home ownership. Is that even accurate? Doubt it.Renting isn't seen as a bad thing by increasing numbers of people. The notion that young people are giving up on cities because they can't afford a single house with picket fence in city neighborhoods seems a bit simplistic to me.

[Redddog]

Originally Posted by cardeza

This narrative has been pushed for several years now- and yet nearly every major city in the US is adding population. One of my issues with these "millenials are leaving cities in droves" articles is that they all presume that MOST millenials want to own a home and are primarily driven by home ownership. Is that even accurate? Doubt it.Renting isn't seen as a bad thing by increasing numbers of people. The notion that young people are giving up on cities because they can't afford a single house with picket fence in city neighborhoods seems a bit simplistic to me.

Not to mention, the surge of well-healed boomers and Gen-xers who are moving into the city is outpacing the velocity of urban defectors. Beyond the numbers, you can see it all over town but especially in Center City.

I think Philly will have positive numbers well after cities like NY, DC and Boston do for a couple of reasons - cost, as mentioned, is well below the aforementioned cities and the "cool factor" of Philly is starting to become more of a prevalent conversation than in years past. Mix those two things together and you have a powerful draw. It's exactly what ultimately brought me and my wife here. As long-time NYers, we were completely floored by what you can get into in Philly vs NY. Our current situation would require us to have a net worth far exceeding what we actually have if we were living in NY. And that is a theme we hear over and over. NYers are coming - or planning to come - in droves. For good or bad.

[jsbrook]

Originally Posted by Redddog

Not to mention, the surge of well-healed boomers and Gen-xers who are moving into the city is outpacing the velocity of urban defectors. Beyond the numbers, you can see it all over town but especially in Center City.

I think Philly will have positive numbers well after cities like NY, DC and Boston do for a couple of reasons - cost, as mentioned, is well below the aforementioned cities and the "cool factor" of Philly is starting to become more of a prevalent conversation than in years past. Mix those two things together and you have a powerful draw. It's exactly what ultimately brought me and my wife here. As long-time NYers, we were completely floored by what you can get into in Philly vs NY. Our current situation would require us to have a net worth far exceeding what we actually have if we were living in NY. And that is a theme we hear over and over. NYers are coming - or planning to come - in droves. For good or bad.

For good.

[EastSideHBG]

Originally Posted by Redddog

Not to mention, the surge of well-healed boomers and Gen-xers who are moving into the city is outpacing the velocity of urban defectors. Beyond the numbers, you can see it all over town but especially in Center City.

I think Philly will have positive numbers well after cities like NY, DC and Boston do for a couple of reasons - cost, as mentioned, is well below the aforementioned cities and the "cool factor" of Philly is starting to become more of a prevalent conversation than in years past. Mix those two things together and you have a powerful draw. It's exactly what ultimately brought me and my wife here. As long-time NYers, we were completely floored by what you can get into in Philly vs NY. Our current situation would require us to have a net worth far exceeding what we actually have if we were living in NY. And that is a theme we hear over and over. NYers are coming - or planning to come - in droves. For good or bad.

It's a great point but it's all relative and if the trend continues things will only go up, then I wonder where the tipping point will be for people to look elsewhere for affordability. I can be cheap so probably not the best gauge so I always try to remain objective and look around at the people I know who are not and even they are starting to move pretty far out or leave the area entirely. Personal experiences are a drop in the bucket of course but I have been in the area long enough now to see it change and affordable is not a term I would use anymore if you want something in a halfway decent area. Great sign of course and I am not downing that but...

The price of progress I suppose.

[jsbrook]

Originally Posted by EastSideHBG

It's a great point but it's all relative and if the trend continues things will only go up, then I wonder where the tipping point will be for people to look elsewhere for affordability. I can be cheap so probably not the best gauge so I always try to remain objective and look around at the people I know who are not and even they are starting to move pretty far out or leave the area entirely. Personal experiences are a drop in the bucket of course but I have been in the area long enough now to see it change and affordable is not a term I would use anymore if you want something in a halfway decent area. Great sign of course and I am not downing that but...

The price of progress I suppose.

In the longrun, none of the original U.S. cities will be affordable. In the even longer run, neither will the burgeoning hot Southern and Texas cities. We're going to need to develop satellite and edge cities and densify the suburbs to maintain affordability in metro areas. And develop a far superior public transit system than we have now in most places to better connect key cities to the edge and satellite cities and suburbs.

[iheartphilly]

^^
I wouldn't go into generalizations too much. There is a natural ebb and flow to the growth are shrinking of big cities-say from retirement to the friendly tax states like Florida or cheaper cost of living in retirement down South, but the NorthEast States have predominately held higher paying jobs to support the higher rents. People that hold college degrees and advanced degrees on average have higher salaries to support higher rent. Cost of living is higher in bigger and more dense cities. And, I think the housing and rental markets will adjust accordingly to supply and demand. Especially if the vacancy rate is high on rentals, no landlord will want to sit on a building not filled at least 80%. The same is true for suburbs and housing costs (both rentals and home-ownership). The same rules apply in that salaries must also keep pace with the average increase in the cost of homes. Otherwise, no one will be able to afford homeownership in the more coveted towns (due to high ranking school districts, quality of life, etc.) and home prices will have to come down if people want to sell and move on (i.e., once they are empty-nesters, or they retire and move into the city or another state).

[jsbrook]

Originally Posted by iheartphilly

^^
I wouldn't go into generalizations too much. There is a natural ebb and flow to the growth are shrinking of big cities-say from retirement to the friendly tax states like Florida or cheaper cost of living in retirement down South, but the NorthEast States have predominately held higher paying jobs to support the higher rents. People that hold college degrees and advanced degrees on average have higher salaries to support higher rent. Cost of living is higher in bigger and more dense cities. And, I think the housing and rental markets will adjust accordingly to supply and demand. Especially if the vacancy rate is high on rentals, no landlord will want to sit on a building not filled at least 80%. The same is true for suburbs and housing costs (both rentals and home-ownership). The same rules apply in that salaries must also keep pace with the average increase in the cost of homes. Otherwise, no one will be able to afford homeownership in the more coveted towns (due to high ranking school districts, quality of life, etc.) and home prices will have to come down if people want to sell and move on (i.e., once they are empty-nesters, or they retire and move into the city or another state).

Well, this is a more philosophical and macro discussion more suited to my urban planning work. But most people WON'T be able to afford homeownership in coveted cities, and density and requirements for certain amounts of designated affordable housing can only do so much to mitigate that in the longterm. This is because cities have finite amounts of land and yet our population continues to grow.

Absent a cultural reversal and significant drop in the desire to live in dense walkable neighborhoods with lots of amenities and lots to do, eventually all neighborhoods in the key cities are going to be like that and going to be prized, and accordingly expensive. But we have lots of usable land in relatively close proximity to our large cities that can develop to be a satellite and still allow people who can't afford to live in them to live near, work in, and spend time in our top cities. It's going to take a long time before we get to this point nationwide (less time for places like the Northeast Corridor but still a long time), but I really think this is the best guess on where we are ultimately headed.

[cardeza]

Originally Posted by Redddog

Not to mention, the surge of well-healed boomers and Gen-xers who are moving into the city is outpacing the velocity of urban defectors. Beyond the numbers, you can see it all over town but especially in Center City.

I think Philly will have positive numbers well after cities like NY, DC and Boston do for a couple of reasons - cost, as mentioned, is well below the aforementioned cities and the "cool factor" of Philly is starting to become more of a prevalent conversation than in years past. Mix those two things together and you have a powerful draw. It's exactly what ultimately brought me and my wife here. As long-time NYers, we were completely floored by what you can get into in Philly vs NY. Our current situation would require us to have a net worth far exceeding what we actually have if we were living in NY. And that is a theme we hear over and over. NYers are coming - or planning to come - in droves. For good or bad.

It makes you wonder what cities they are talking about. More expensive cities like DC, Boston, Seattle, LA, etc. are still growing so where are all these cities that are bleeding people due to mass exodus based on a love of the suburbs? Philly and chicago have grown very modestly in recent years, but are still growing. EVERY southern city is growing. So where is the contraction?

[jsbrook]

Originally Posted by cardeza

It makes you wonder what cities they are talking about. More expensive cities like DC, Boston, Seattle, LA, etc. are still growing so where are all these cities that are bleeding people due to mass exodus based on a love of the suburbs? Philly and chicago have grown very modestly in recent years, but are still growing. EVERY southern city is growing. So where is the contraction?

Chicago is actually shrinking and losing population. So is Cook County. The city proper itself lost 7,073 people between 2017 and 2018 (not sure of the stats between 2018 and 2019). However, its core is growing. It's shrinkage, along the lines of what I said above, has mostly to do with poorer folks (and even middle class) not being able to comfortably live there anymore and setting off for cheaper cities. And, yes, in some cases the suburbs.

[EastSideHBG]

It's a fascinating topic to me and many parts of the city are becoming a playground for the rich. Long-term owners that I know who are willing to give up the lifestyle are bailing now and seeing HUGE returns (it's really crazy to see how lucky some people got with this). None of this is bad news but there's a whole segment of the population that will need to double+ up to be able to afford anything worthwhile, I just wonder where this all will end up?

[jsbrook]

Two new restaurants opening on the 1200 and 1300 blocks of Walnut.

https://www.bizjournals.com/philadel...ut-street.html

Butcher's Smokehouse, a 1,500 square foot, 30-seat, fast casual joint will open at 1221 Walnut. The Pandora's there is moving next door. Crab Nola will open at 13th and Walnut in October. It will accommodate 40 people. I think there is a restaurant also in the works on the ground floor of the tower at 1213 Walnut. There's also a Sonder coming to the 1,300 block of Walnut. https://www.inquirer.com/real-estate...llXlEhQPG2YW44 I think these are all good developments. The 1,300 block of Walnut seems to be one of the few blocks in the Gayborhood area that remains a little shady and gross, and it has probably declined and not improved since the Wawa opens. There are also a lot of vacant storefronts. Hopefully, with these developments, the vibe will start to change around there and even more storefronts will fill.

[ePlanningPhila]

Originally Posted by iheartphilly

Look closely on the image. The design is really weird on this one. The modern in the rear doesn't mix well at all with the "Victorian??" or classic architecture in the front. I say pick one or the other, but not try to squeeze a combo into one building.

I personally love the juxtaposition of the modern and historic architecture and I personally wish it was replicated more with projects.

[Redddog]

Quick question regarding demolition notices (for the pros)...

There is a property on the corner of Arch and 2nd that was bought by the DiNardo's group that was going to be a hotel and restaurant. After demo, they posted a "repair or demolish" notice due to some structural issues. That notice expired in may.

What happens next to something like this? I would think they would have to be required somehow to at least attempt to repair the structure vs just demoing, no? And what would the timing be? They're already more than a month from the deadline?

Just curious. This would be a game-changer for old city in that it would be the first liquor license issued between Race and Market in what has to be decades.

[mcgrath618]

Originally Posted by Redddog

Quick question regarding demolition notices (for the pros)...

There is a property on the corner of Arch and 2nd that was bought by the DiNardo's group that was going to be a hotel and restaurant. After demo, they posted a "repair or demolish" notice due to some structural issues. That notice expired in may.

What happens next to something like this? I would think they would have to be required somehow to at least attempt to repair the structure vs just demoing, no? And what would the timing be? They're already more than a month from the deadline?

Just curious. This would be a game-changer for old city in that it would be the first liquor license issued between Race and Market in what has to be decades.

I really hope the original design for that lot gets used. It looked straight out of SoHo.