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  #1321  
Old Posted Aug 9, 2010, 9:20 PM
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Without the additional sales tax, but with the successful Eagle P3 funding on the east, gold and NW spur, plus the anticipated federal funding of around $1 billion for these lines, RTD was going to have funds to build I-225 to the Aurora Town Center. At least, I know this was on e scenario they were throwing around.

If they can land these TigerII funds and extend it 1.5 miles to Iliff Ave., looking on Googlemaps, it appears it would allow FasTracks (under the above scenario), to build the I-225 LRT from Iliff to Colfax. It would be close, but they might be able to pull it off and imho, that would be huge.
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  #1322  
Old Posted Aug 9, 2010, 10:36 PM
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Originally Posted by SnyderBock View Post
Without the additional sales tax, but with the successful Eagle P3 funding on the east, gold and NW spur, plus the anticipated federal funding of around $1 billion for these lines, RTD was going to have funds to build I-225 to the Aurora Town Center. At least, I know this was on e scenario they were throwing around.

If they can land these TigerII funds and extend it 1.5 miles to Iliff Ave., looking on Googlemaps, it appears it would allow FasTracks (under the above scenario), to build the I-225 LRT from Iliff to Colfax. It would be close, but they might be able to pull it off and imho, that would be huge.
Of the unfunded corridors, I-225 seems to me to be the biggest priority since it has the Fitzsimmons campus and connects to the East Corridor. It would give access to DIA for the south metro via rail from as far as lone tree.
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  #1323  
Old Posted Aug 10, 2010, 12:58 AM
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True and the ridership projections where done years ago. Since then, Fitzsimmons has had an explosion of development. The Aurora Town Center is further along as well. This I-225 line from Parker Road to Lone Tree. already tops 5,000 riders per weekday. The projections for the fully built line was only just over 10,000 daily weekday riders.

So according to those projections, extending this line to connect the southeast suburbs and Denver Tech Center employment district with Aurora Town Center, Aurora's 300k residents, Fitzsimmons Anschutz Medical Campus and a rail transfer station to Denver International Airport, will only add 5,000 weekday riders?

Those projections are severely low. I bet new projections would have this line over 15,000 daily riders by 2020. RTD should apply this corridor for New Starts funding under the new requirements, once they go into effect.
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  #1324  
Old Posted Aug 10, 2010, 1:37 AM
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I agree with the notion that the exploding development in Fitzsimmons and the surrounding area is certainly making the 225 corridor FasTracks projections look very low. Without a doubt, the massive employment base that is Fitz is certainly going to be a huge source of riders for the LRT line.

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  #1325  
Old Posted Aug 10, 2010, 4:46 AM
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^ i'd agree, but only if the coflax streetcar happens...just too many young doctors living in the city west of fitzy
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  #1326  
Old Posted Aug 10, 2010, 7:21 AM
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Originally Posted by Fritzdude View Post
Can someone help me settle a heated political discussion that I just had with a buddy of mine. He is strictly anti-rail and says all the money that we're pouring into FastTracks is a waste of tax payer's money. He says RTD is losing money big time and we'll never recoup our investments on the lines to Golden and to DIA. It's all a waste of money (and then somehow blames Obama... fwiw.) Anyway, I think he's been slurping the Glenn Beck juice too much and want to counter his argument with facts.

Can someone tell me the pros and cons of FastTracks and whether it's a "sound" investment?

'


It is indeed a "sound investment" while new urban roads and highways often are not. The hardest thing for conservatives to understand regarding rail is that the majority of it's benefits fit within a long-term cost/benefit analysis. Roads/highways are opposite - they cost much less in the short term but cost more in the long term.

Roads: comparatively little cost up front
accumulating costs over time - maintenance, widening to accomodate congestion, environmental costs, moving roads to deal with urban growth and highway-as-barrier issues (e.g. I-70 west of the mousetrap, Big Dig in Boston), aesthetic degradation, health costs including pollution and obesity, increasing reliance on fossil fuels/foreign oil

Rail: huge up-front cost
accumulating benefits over time - encourages density and all benefits associated with density, creates nodes of activity that lead to economic growth, reorients urban growth around said nodes reducing sprawl, reduces traffic thereby reducing costs for road maintenance, new roads, congestion and associated economic losses, etc. (see above), more trains are significantly cheaper than new or widened roads i.e. sustainable means of accommodating growing population, much better for the environment, health benefits associated with increased walking and biking, reduced dependance on fossil fuels/foreign oil

In cities with even moderate existing density, rail is all but guaranteed to eventually pay itself off and much more. Roads are all but guaranteed to increase the cost to taxpayers. Granted, it may take a generation or two to fully appreciate the savings and economic growth afforded by rail, but isn't that the sort of sacrifice that this country was built on? Most people would say that they are working so that their kids will be better off than they are. Rail fits within that goal while catering to the auto does not.

Final thought; I heard a conservative talk show host once say that maturity is defined as delaying immediate gratification for the purpose of ultimate gain. I have found that my conservative friends understand this principle well (and unfortunately don't see that many of the conservative tenets are ultimately market-driven and necessarily immature, by that definition). Those that are critical thinkers usually change their mind regarding rail when the true nature of the debate is revealed to them.

Last edited by PlanIt; Aug 10, 2010 at 7:33 AM.
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  #1327  
Old Posted Aug 10, 2010, 1:43 PM
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In general I prefer to see funds go to new lines instead of extensions to existing ones but in this case it’s a great idea. I’ve used the Nine Mile station occasionally and have felt fortunate to find a parking spot. I225 is a mess.

I wonder why the other lines are not implemented this way. If funding is not available for the entire line then why not build in stages a station at a time. At least people would see progress and get excited about it reaching their neighborhood. I guess there probably some technical reason you can’t open the lines this way.

I am also curious if there is any leftover ROW next to the East line to maybe make H a full loop in the future. Just looking at a map it appears it wouldn’t take much to connect the ends.
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  #1328  
Old Posted Aug 17, 2010, 3:06 PM
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I'd like to see the new numbers.

Quote:
Originally Posted by New ridership estimates for FastTracks twice earlier forecasts
http://www.denverpost.com/headlines/ci_15798437

RTD has new estimates of future transit ridership for the unfunded FasTracks rail lines that show boardings will be about double what the agency predicted earlier on some of the corridors.

The Denver Regional Council of Governments, or DRCOG, conducted modeling to come up with both the earlier long-range ridership estimates and the new ones.

The increased ridership projections are attributed to new land-use and population data produced by local governments.

RTD officials and local government leaders hope the higher ridership numbers on select FasTracks lines will help make them eligible for a new round of federal funding.
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  #1329  
Old Posted Aug 17, 2010, 4:28 PM
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Originally Posted by bcp View Post
^ i'd agree, but only if the coflax streetcar happens...just too many young doctors living in the city west of fitzy
Huge mistake not getting this done faster actually. A great many docs and other staff are going to make a living decision when they start out there that won't involve a good option for getting from downtown to the medical center. If and when there is a streetcar line from downtown to the med center a lot of them are going to be settled and won't want to change where they are.
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  #1330  
Old Posted Aug 17, 2010, 4:41 PM
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^Hell, all of those young doctors and nurses are going to end up in Stapleton. So, all of those fabulous income and sales tax dollars at least remain in Denver.

Aurora is just way too dilapidated around Fitzsimons to grab a lot of the residents aside from the developments that are occurring adjacent to the medical center and I don't think a lot of staff will want to live by C-470 considering the lack of E/W connectivity. Stapleton literally feeds right into Fitzsimons in one of the fastest ways possible, even more so when Fitzsimons Parkway is connected across Peoria.
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  #1331  
Old Posted Aug 17, 2010, 4:54 PM
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Originally Posted by wong21fr View Post
^Hell, all of those young doctors and nurses are going to end up in Stapleton. So, all of those fabulous income and sales tax dollars at least remain in Denver.
Aurora is just way too dilapidated around Fitzsimons to grab a lot of the residents aside from the developments that are occurring adjacent to the medical center and I don't think a lot of staff will want to live by C-470 considering the lack of E/W connectivity. Stapleton literally feeds right into Fitzsimons in one of the fastest ways possible, even more so when Fitzsimons Parkway is connected across Peoria.
Yeah a lot of them are already in Stapleton.. and not that I have anything against stapleton but a line from downtown to the center would have been a read opportunity to inject not only some DR's downtown but med and dental and pham etc students as well. And the latter is always an opportunity waiting to be tapped as soon as an easy way there gets built. Esp if it's billed right. Nothing is more important to a med student than time to study and sitting in your seat letting someone else get you to work is a great time to brush up on acid/base reactions, immunization schedules, etc.
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  #1332  
Old Posted Aug 17, 2010, 6:00 PM
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^Won't the East Corridor run through Stapleton?
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  #1333  
Old Posted Aug 17, 2010, 6:08 PM
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^It doesn't connect to Fitzsimons so it wouldn't apply in this situation.

But, yes, there will be a station on the East Corridor in Stapleton by Central Park Blvd.
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  #1334  
Old Posted Aug 17, 2010, 6:33 PM
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The I-225 corridor will border Fitzsimons, so it will come down to how easy and well-timed the transfers from the East Corridor to Peoria/Smith are. If it's just a simple step off/step on from commuter rail to light rail, I could picture people doing it.

It would also be easy enough to have a frequent bus route connect Stapleton and Fitzsimons. Boulder-Denver buses are frequently PACKED so this would be the same.

And I could also easily see the hospital complex providing free RTD passes to all its employees (if they don't already) which would provide an extra boost.
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  #1335  
Old Posted Aug 17, 2010, 8:28 PM
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A future route is planned to connect the Stapleton Transit Center with Fitzsimons, I believe it will be both a local and a limited and that will be the most direct connection to Fitzsimons.

As the I-225 LRT isn't going to come to fruition for another few years/decades (though maybe these new ridership projections will help), I wasn't actually thinking about doing transfers from the East corridor to the I-225 line. It's possible, but the bus route will almost certainly be more convenient.
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  #1336  
Old Posted Aug 17, 2010, 8:38 PM
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Are doctors really going to want to take mass transit? Its slow and not convenient. There are many times they are needed right away and for them to be anywhere without a car does not seem practical to me. One of my best friends dad is a cardiologist in Pueblo and when he gets called for a emergency he needs to be there A.S.A.P not take his time on a bus.
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  #1337  
Old Posted Aug 17, 2010, 8:46 PM
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You're joking right? This isn't about emergency situations, it's about regular commutes which is something that medical professionals do.

Plus, we have this thing called "traffic" in Denver. It has the effect of making some transit lines a bit faster than a car in some situations. It also allows you to do stuff, such as reading the latest medical journal, instead of wasting time behind the wheel.
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  #1338  
Old Posted Aug 17, 2010, 9:10 PM
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I see your point but if I was a DR I would not want to be any place not by my car including the hospital as I would never know when I would be needed for a emergency at another hospital.
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  #1339  
Old Posted Aug 17, 2010, 9:27 PM
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Well, we'll ask the Doctor (when he shows up) just how often this happens.

Besides, you and your car are wedded at the hip (and possibly other places I don't even want to think about) so you are probably a tad bit biased.
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  #1340  
Old Posted Aug 17, 2010, 10:03 PM
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Um, Eeyore, perhaps you're forgetting the fact that doctors make up a relatively small percentage of workers at a major medical facility like Fitzsimons, where there are thousands of researchers, secretaries, custodians, clerks, receptionists, nurses, technicians, etc. that have set shifts and work sites that are ideal candidates to use transit.
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