CHICAGO | General Developments

[west-town-brad]

https://twitter.com/CTARPM/status/14...365725699?s=20

cool time lapse video from the Vautravers Building relocation

[BrinChi]

Originally Posted by the urban politician

Mag Mile Uniqlo store closing.

Getting kinda depressing on N. Mich, guys.....

They still have their store on State Street that opened a couple years ago: https://goo.gl/maps/JnyXd6wcYDdSMkNA9

I haven't been but that's actually much more convenient for those working in the loop. Although it looks much smaller than the N Michigan flagship.

[dewbs]

Originally Posted by Mr Downtown

Leaving aside the 150 days a year when no one wants to linger outside in Chicago, where in the world is there a successful pedestrian street that's more than 15 meters in width?

The Champs-Élysées is 8 lanes. On google maps, I measure 80 feet for Michigan avenue, 86 feet for the Champs-Élysées.

That said, they put it on a massive road diet, as I understand it.

[Handro]

Originally Posted by Mr Downtown

Leaving aside the 150 days a year when no one wants to linger outside in Chicago, where in the world is there a successful pedestrian street that's more than 15 meters in width?

It takes more than dreaming to create a "great cityscape."

The world is full of large plazas and other outdoor attractions in cities that experience winter, I'm not sure why (other than Chicago's classic small-c conservatism) you think Chicago is somehow precluded from having anything similar. The "great cityscape" (following your lead on the condescending quotation marks) is already there, it's just bypassed by 6 lanes of traffic.

^And yes, Paris is pedestrianizing Champs-Élysées, for the same reasons it should be done for Michigan Avenue from the river to the water tower.

https://news.artnet.com/art-world/pa...vation-1936162

“The legendary avenue has lost its splendor over the past 30 years,” read a statement from the Champs-Élysées Committee, which has lobbied local government to renovate the stretch of road for years. “It was gradually abandoned by the Parisians and suffered the full brunt of several respective crises: yellow vests, strikes, health and economic crisis, etc.”

Last year, the committee proposed the now-approved restoration project, funded through “public and private investment,” committee president Jean-Noël Reinhardt said at the time.

Conceived by French architectural firm PCA-Stream, the restoration project will optimize walkway space for pedestrians, add more greenery to improve air conditions, and decrease automobile traffic by half. Firm founder Philippe Chiambaretta told The Guardian that his goal is to make the space “ecological, desirable, and inclusive”.

But yes, it's a pipe dream for Chicago, for many reasons other than the actual feasibility of the project.

[ChiMIchael]

Originally Posted by marothisu

A lot of luxury retail in Chicago is not on Michigan Avenue anymore, only a little bit now. A lot is now on Oak Street, Rush Street, Walton Street, etc. This is continuing with new buildings being built on those streets, and renovations too for new stores.

Not sure why you'd disregard this fact.

Fair enough, but that should be emphasize more. And doesn't really pacify my prospect of the corridor overall. Hope I'm wrong though.

[dewbs]

Originally Posted by Handro

^And yes, Paris is pedestrianizing Champs-Élysées, for the same reasons it should be done for Michigan Avenue from the river to the water tower.

https://news.artnet.com/art-world/pa...vation-1936162



But yes, it's a pipe dream for Chicago, for many reasons other than the actual feasibility of the project.

My Parisian friends made the reasonable point that these things can be taken too far. Some things do, in the end, require having space for cars, e.g. transporting the disabled.

It's also worth noting that even in Copenhagen, there are still lots of huge roads. The Norre alle in Norrebro is 80' wide -- the same as Michigan ave. -- not even counting the bike lanes. And that's a street running along a park. The reality is that Michigan avenue is reasonably important for moving cars through that part of the city.

[the urban politician]

Originally Posted by Handro

The world is full of large plazas and other outdoor attractions in cities that experience winter, I'm not sure why (other than Chicago's classic small-c conservatism) you think Chicago is somehow precluded from having anything similar. The "great cityscape" (following your lead on the condescending quotation marks) is already there, it's just bypassed by 6 lanes of traffic.

^ You seem to keep wanting to hammer this issue without acknowledging that Chicago tried a similar experiment on State St 35 years-ish ago (it was bus-only, but still pretty similar in concept) and it was a miserable failure

[galleyfox]

Originally Posted by BrinChi

They still have their store on State Street that opened a couple years ago: https://goo.gl/maps/JnyXd6wcYDdSMkNA9

I haven't been but that's actually much more convenient for those working in the loop. Although it looks much smaller than the N Michigan flagship.

Ultimately, there’s just no getting around the fact that in-person Department store sales are in decline. From about $16 Billion in 2010 to $10 Billion in 2020. (With the 2020 figure as a return to trend, not a Covid aberration)

And State St. outcompetes Michigan Ave for discount fashion chains like Primark that are trying to get more domestic market share.

I know ‘experiences’ have been proposed as an alternative to retail, but has Michigan Ave been competitive at all on that front? I see an E-Sports venue for McCormick, Illuminarium for Navy Pier, WNDR Museum for West Loop, Art on theMart for the Loop/River North. I guess the Starbucks roastery counts, but it’s nowhere near enough.

If the main commercial district is wandering again as has happened often in Chicago’s history, then the city needs to identify as many properties as possible that are good for high-rise redevelopment and eliminate the excess department store space. I think smaller boutiques will always exist, but the space doesn’t really exist to serve them on Michigan Ave right now.


https://www.vox.com/recode/21561046/...-retail-charts

[moorhosj1]

Originally Posted by the urban politician

^ You seem to keep wanting to hammer this issue without acknowledging that Chicago tried a similar experiment on State St 35 years-ish ago (it was bus-only, but still pretty similar in concept) and it was a miserable failure

I think we can all agree that things have changed in the past 35 years. That change is exactly why people are open to changing the purpose of iconic streets dedicated entirely to retail.

Weren't you also the one celebrating how great the Sundays on State program is?

[west-town-brad]

Originally Posted by Mr Downtown

Leaving aside the 150 days a year when no one wants to linger outside in Chicago

give global warming a few more years...

[Handro]

Originally Posted by the urban politician

^ You seem to keep wanting to hammer this issue without acknowledging that Chicago tried a similar experiment on State St 35 years-ish ago (it was bus-only, but still pretty similar in concept) and it was a miserable failure

Of course we all know that cities and urban planning in general were in a very different place 35 years ago.

[ardecila]

Originally Posted by the urban politician

^ You seem to keep wanting to hammer this issue without acknowledging that Chicago tried a similar experiment on State St 35 years-ish ago (it was bus-only, but still pretty similar in concept) and it was a miserable failure

State St was in freefall by 1979, because the middle-class people who shopped there had been steadily leaving the city for 3 decades prior, and Michigan Avenue sapped the luxury and tourist markets. The old theaters were also struggling, if not outright replaced by porno houses. Street crime, muggings, etc discouraged the few people who still wanted to come downtown. No mere pedestrian mall was gonna change the structural problems with downtown retail.

Daley got credit for re-opening State and putting in cutesy Victorian decor, but it was really a whole combination of things that revived State, from increased safety/cleanliness on the CTA and the Loop in general, to a revived middle class on the North Side, plus the creation of the Theatre District to bring back legitimate theater and musicals, and the recruitment of suburban big-box chains to take over the old department store spaces.

A pedestrian mall on the European example (or Times Square) creates its own demand for retail, because it is a place that people want to hang out in, to socialize, to people-watch, etc. I'm not sure such a thing is possible on Michigan (or State) but if it is possible, it will require careful management, policing that maintains safety without being oppressive, programming of events and activities year-round but especially in the winter months, etc.

[BruceP]

Originally Posted by dewbs

The Champs-Élysées is 8 lanes. On google maps, I measure 80 feet for Michigan avenue, 86 feet for the Champs-Élysées.

That said, they put it on a massive road diet, as I understand it.

The Champs-Élysées is actually 230 feet wide, almost twice the width of Michigan Ave. at 120 feet wide, though The Champs-Élysées has substantially wider sidewalks.

[the urban politician]

Originally Posted by ardecila

State St was in freefall by 1979, because the middle-class people who shopped there had been steadily leaving the city for 3 decades prior, and Michigan Avenue sapped the luxury and tourist markets. The old theaters were also struggling, if not outright replaced by porno houses. Street crime, muggings, etc discouraged the few people who still wanted to come downtown. No mere pedestrian mall was gonna change the structural problems with downtown retail.

Daley got credit for re-opening State and putting in cutesy Victorian decor, but it was really a whole combination of things that revived State, from increased safety/cleanliness on the CTA and the Loop in general, to a revived middle class on the North Side, plus the creation of the Theatre District to bring back legitimate theater and musicals, and the recruitment of suburban big-box chains to take over the old department store spaces.

A pedestrian mall on the European example (or Times Square) creates its own demand for retail, because it is a place that people want to hang out in, to socialize, to people-watch, etc. I'm not sure such a thing is possible on Michigan (or State) but if it is possible, it will require careful management, policing that maintains safety without being oppressive, programming of events and activities year-round but especially in the winter months, etc.

^ There are analogies to today, though.

Yes, downtown is in a much stronger position than 35 years ago, but Mag Mile is indeed struggling to online retail, tourism is down, and we all have to acknowledge that there have been rounds of riots in the past year.

[galleyfox]

Originally Posted by moorhosj1

I think we can all agree that things have changed in the past 35 years. That change is exactly why people are open to changing the purpose of iconic streets dedicated entirely to retail.

Weren't you also the one celebrating how great the Sundays on State program is?

I think if the State Street Pedestrian Mall were implemented like it was in 1979, it would fail again. By itself, closing down the street to traffic doesn’t seem to improve commercial activity that much. Even adding sideshow acts similar to Times Square didn’t help.

However, Sundays on State seems to be improving sales on State Street…by introducing more commercial activity. The extra road space only helps when it is actually used to generate revenue.

Which is probably why pedestrian streets almost always are narrower. They’re easier to fill to make the space both cozy and active.

Disregarding the public transit issue for now, I don’t think it’s impossible to pedestrianize the Magnificent Mile, but it would take a lot of planning to fill up that huge space so it doesn’t feel desolate.

https://loopchicago.com/in-the-loop/...ils-announced/


https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.chi...outputType=amp

[BruceP]

Originally Posted by galleyfox

I think if the State Street Pedestrian Mall were implemented like it was in 1979, it would fail again. By itself, closing down the street to traffic doesn’t seem to improve commercial activity that much. Even adding sideshow acts similar to Times Square didn’t help.

However, Sundays on State seems to be improving sales on State Street…by introducing more commercial activity. The extra road space only helps when it is actually used to generate revenue.

Which is probably why pedestrian streets almost always are narrower. They’re easier to fill to make the space both cozy and active.

Disregarding the public transit issue for now, I don’t think it’s impossible to pedestrianize the Magnificent Mile, but it would take a lot of planning to fill up that huge space so it doesn’t feel desolate.

https://loopchicago.com/in-the-loop/...ils-announced/


https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.chi...outputType=amp

Excellent point. Pedestrianized streets in Europe tend to be little more than alleys paralleling major thoroughfares, such as Carnaby St and Regent St in London and Warmoesstraat and Damrak in Amsterdam.

[ardecila]

Originally Posted by the urban politician

^ There are analogies to today, though.

Yes, downtown is in a much stronger position than 35 years ago, but Mag Mile is indeed struggling to online retail, tourism is down, and we all have to acknowledge that there have been rounds of riots in the past year.

This is true, it should be part of a broader re-visioning of downtown. The city needs to think long and hard about what kinds of uses are needed in the future (more residential, less office/retail?) and the city's investments should support those future uses.

The good thing is we can pilot a lot of these changes using temporary infrastructure. Times Square was pedestrianized using paint and jersey barriers. When the world didn't end after a year or two of that, they ripped up the street and put in quality granite paving and permanent landscaping. It gives the city a lot of flexibility and nimbleness to respond to a changing economy and a changing society, if they have the courage to stand up to the many forces that resist physical change in the cityscape.

Originally Posted by BruceP

Excellent point. Pedestrianized streets in Europe tend to be little more than alleys paralleling major thoroughfares, such as Carnaby St and Regent St in London and Warmoesstraat and Damrak in Amsterdam.

Stroget in Copenhagen does not parallel a major thoroughfare. Italian cities have used ZTLs to pedestrianize whole neighborhoods. Barcelona has superblocks where every street is closed to traffic except major arteries and every 3rd local street remains open for circulation. Mariahilferstrasse in Vienna WAS a major thoroughfare (90' right of way) before it was pedestrianized. Etc etc.

[ardecila]

If you're wishing for Michigan Ave to be pedestrianized, you got your wish (for one Sunday a month, 9-5):

https://www.themagnificentmile.com/meet-me-on-the-mile/

The first one is August 15th.

[the urban politician]

^ Bad idea to do that on Sunday, it will directly compete with the similar event on State St

[ChiMIchael]

Originally Posted by the urban politician

^ Bad idea to do that on Sunday, it will directly compete with the similar event on State St

It's on days where State St. doesn't occure.