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  #581  
Old Posted Jan 6, 2021, 7:01 PM
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I have heard this point a lot but it makes no sense to me. This seems to be a kind of time-division equity or perhaps long-term cosmic justice. Aside from having no clear value as a goal (equity "on average" over centuries not meaning much to humans who live their lives in specific periods) it doesn't seem stable. I don't see how generation #31 or whatever will be happy to go back to equality after #16-30 were punished for the discrimination of generations #1-15. It sounds like a recipe for problems.

The simpler system seems better. Try to give people access to good quality basic goods and public services (nutritious food and clean water, clothing, housing, health care, education) and hire based on competence. Right now we're failing the quality public services part for some groups and trying to make it up farther along the pipeline. You can have the most diverse CBC news anchor team ever and still not have clean running water in all of the country.
As you probably know we're generally on the same page for most of this stuff.

But I don't see any harm in acknowledging the (fairly) recent history.

Obviously I don't support reverse or payback racism or discrimination.
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Last edited by Acajack; Jan 6, 2021 at 7:13 PM.
     
     
  #582  
Old Posted Jan 6, 2021, 7:20 PM
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In all honesty and fairness though, for a long time it was "John looks perfect on paper, but I don't like that his skin is black".
True, but the point is that nowadays, most reasonable people would agree that "John would be perfect for this job except for his skin color, therefore we'll get someone else who has the correct skin color" shouldn't be acceptable hiring practice, right?
     
     
  #583  
Old Posted Jan 6, 2021, 7:29 PM
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True, but the point is that nowadays, most reasonable people would agree that "John would be perfect for this job except for his skin color, therefore we'll get someone else who has the correct skin color" shouldn't be acceptable hiring practice, right?
The Woketarians think it is...………
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  #584  
Old Posted Jan 6, 2021, 7:41 PM
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In all honesty and fairness though, for a long time it was "John looks perfect on paper, but I don't like that his skin is black".
Two wrong's don't make a right.

I mean this unlike the other bit is actually toddler philosophy.


For a long time evil persisted, lets move on from an obvious evil, but first lets make the other half of the population suffer horribly.

This is why it's not just wokism that is the issue. We have a substantial component of our population that just cognitively isn't capable of morality. And they tend to congregate on the left. This is fine as long as left wing leaders are rational fair people. This is what the politics is suddenly orientated towards. But clearly the rational types are no longer at the helm.
     
     
  #585  
Old Posted Jan 6, 2021, 7:46 PM
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But I don't see any harm in acknowledging the (fairly) recent history.
I agree but it seems pretty acknowledged in popular North American culture. My impression is that denial that there was any discrimination or just plain maliciousness against black people in 1950 for example is rare. There is more true debate about the severity of the discrimination today.

There are some people who are genuinely still discriminatory and will acknowledge it like Richard Spencer but they do not seem successful. Somebody jokingly wrote he was the "world's most famous loser" or something along those lines which captures what's going on somewhat. There are far more people who yearn to be seen opposing the fringe white supremacist people than there are white supremacists, and a couple of white supremacists became sort of famous as lame foils to the people who wanted to oppose them. This was not how the world was in 1935.
     
     
  #586  
Old Posted Jan 6, 2021, 7:50 PM
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True, but the point is that nowadays, most reasonable people would agree that "John would be perfect for this job except for his skin color, therefore we'll get someone else who has the correct skin color" shouldn't be acceptable hiring practice, right?
It isn't just unacceptable, it is the level of bias that should literally end someone up in prison.

I wish I were using hyperbole, but these hiring practices are so out of bounds that is where we are at.
     
     
  #587  
Old Posted Jan 7, 2021, 1:45 PM
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We have a substantial component of our population that just cognitively isn't capable of morality. And they tend to congregate on the left.
I don't recall the left-wing president of the United States putting kids in cages or rolling back protections for LGBTQIA+ people. Where's all those leftists charging the Capitol building? Is ISIS on the left?

This is a horrid take. The overwhelming majority of immoral actions in the world today are undertaken in the name of right-wing causes, be it actual atrocities committed along racial lines or the more American method where you fuck up your own country just to "own" the commie dems.
     
     
  #588  
Old Posted Jan 7, 2021, 5:19 PM
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I don't recall the left-wing president of the United States putting kids in cages or rolling back protections for LGBTQIA+ people..
You break the law with children was to you think is suppose to happen to your kids?

This is exactly the point, if you break into a country, obviously they aren't gonna be kind to you.





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Where's all those leftists charging the Capitol building? Is ISIS on the left?
That's a completely ammoral act obviously, as I said "shoot to kill".

This is the magic of being able to reason shit out.

You launch an attack on the us government, you don't walk away from that.

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This is a horrid take. The overwhelming majority of immoral actions in the world today are undertaken in the name of right-wing causes, be it actual atrocities committed along racial lines or the more American method where you fuck up your own country just to "own" the commie dems.
You say this again because you can't reason out morality.

Governments of all kinds break the law and do illegal things. It is exactly why conservatives don't big government, it doesn't matter if its left and right, government is generally a bad thing.
     
     
  #589  
Old Posted Jan 16, 2021, 3:43 AM
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From a David Brooks column:

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On the left, leaders and organizations have arisen to champion open inquiry, to stand up to the cancel mobs. They have begun to shift the norms.

https://www.nytimes.com/2021/01/14/o...gtype=Homepage
Is this really happening? It's a casual comment without pointing to any evidence, seemingly meant to provide some conciliatory balance in a column castigating the religious right for bowing down to Trump, but it jumped out at me and I was wondering if there was anything to it.
     
     
  #590  
Old Posted Jan 16, 2021, 4:42 AM
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Again, I'm new on this forum so please forgive me if I'm not linking to the original source (KOMO News) correctly; I'd rather just post the direct Youtube link but the rules specify I should post the URL to the original article. It's very recent, posted on December 11th, 2020.

https://komonews.com/news/local/figh...issive-posture

Embedded in this page is an amazing, eye-opening hour and a half documentary on where unchecked "progressive" policies can leave a city and its people. The documentary is called the Fight for the Soul of Seattle, and it's apparent that the blasé treatment of homelessness, drug addiction, and mental health issues of their society strongly mirror ours in cities like Vancouver and Toronto.

At an hour and a half, it's a commitment to watch, but I strongly urge anybody on either side of the aisle to watch this documentary. I find there is very little slant and just a cold, brutal look at the reality of a society that is living in the fantasy where "Do whatever you want whenever you want" = compassion.
     
     
  #591  
Old Posted Jan 16, 2021, 5:27 AM
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From a David Brooks column:



Is this really happening? It's a casual comment without pointing to any evidence, seemingly meant to provide some conciliatory balance in a column castigating the religious right for bowing down to Trump, but it jumped out at me and I was wondering if there was anything to it.
Not seeing any evidence of this. The Titanic is still moving in the same direction and shows no sign of turning around yet.

This smacks of "...but we're the good guys!"
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  #592  
Old Posted Jan 16, 2021, 5:40 AM
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Not seeing any evidence of this. The Titanic is still moving in the same direction and shows no sign of turning around yet.

This smacks of "...but we're the good guys!"
David Brooks is the token right winger at the NY Times, and while he's a very fair and not needlessly partisan thinker, in my casual reading of him over the years I don't think I've seen him go out of his way to lavish praise on the left side of the aisle.

Which is why I found what he said so striking.
     
     
  #593  
Old Posted Jan 16, 2021, 7:02 PM
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David Brooks is the token right winger at the NY Times, and while he's a very fair and not needlessly partisan thinker, in my casual reading of him over the years I don't think I've seen him go out of his way to lavish praise on the left side of the aisle.

Which is why I found what he said so striking.
He’s a Northeastern Republican, a species that used to be common but is now basically extinct except maybe in Vermont (ironically).

In answer to your original question, Bill Maher is a fairly prominent anti-cancel liberal. Obama too to some extent.
     
     
  #594  
Old Posted Jan 19, 2021, 1:42 PM
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It's still LL.B. in Quebec. Though McGill I believe uses both LL.B. and J.D.
McGill Law switched from LL.B. to J.D. in 2019. The LLB is gone and alumni can request a new diploma with the JD degree name. . Their civil law program still awards the B.C.L.
     
     
  #595  
Old Posted Jan 29, 2021, 3:41 PM
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Interesting column today from the La Presse journalist who initially broke the U of Ottawa n-word story.

https://www.lapresse.ca/actualites/e...ous-encore.php

It involves a Quebec literature prof at McGill. She has her students read works both new and old.

In one of the works from the 1800s, there is a reference to French Canadian trappers who are working hard, "comme des nègres". This is an antiquated expression that I've heard many times before, even from family members. But they don't say that anymore. Ironically, a friend of mine who is African has picked it up and says it all the time, before bursting into laughs.

Anyway, several students flipped when they saw the word in the book, and one by one they all logged out of the class in protest.

The professor has not been disciplined but her boss told her to go through all of the books she wants to study line by line to find any offensive words. In addition to the n-word she also found many instances of the S-word, i.e. "sauvages" which is a racist antiquated term for Indigenous people.

She found that the vast majority of the works that are considered significant (even fairly recent ones) for this type of course contain at least one word that might be considered offensive to someone, somewhere.

Her boss has suggested she exempt her students for reading certain pages, or better still, simply not study any book that could contain an offensive word.

The students' federation would like which books are studied and which ones are banned in university classes put to a student committee that would be charged with making such determinations.
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  #596  
Old Posted Jan 29, 2021, 4:03 PM
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Anyway, several students flipped when they saw the word in the book, and one by one they all logged out of the class in protest.
That's about what I'd expect. There is a very strong performative element to those kinds of reactions... it's practically expected now.

It's kind of like when woke white people on social media will make some kind of bold pronouncement regarding reparations for Indigenous or other BIPOC people, you will see these bald assertions about how Indigenous people should have a legislative veto, or should be given Saskatchewan, or some other such thing, and sit back and wait for the likes to roll in.
     
     
  #597  
Old Posted Jan 29, 2021, 4:16 PM
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There are two elements to this, let's call them "bottom-up" and "top-down". On the bottom-up side, of course you have the legacies of the civil and gay rights movements, which have all but eliminated any rhetorical foundation (within liberalism) for civil status hierarchies based on almost any identity marker. A clean-up operation was probably to be expected, and you know how it is when you find a stubborn stain on an otherwise gleaming surface -- you get in there and apply some elbow grease. That's why the activism looks as it does.

A lot of things occur on the grassroots level, however, but fail to achieve any institutional power -- just look at the anti-war movement. That's where the top-down comes in. If you visit the homepages of the great Anglo-American capital foundations -- Rockefeller, Ford, Wellcome -- you will find a focus on what we are calling "wokeness" (it calls itself "social justice", typically) that is near-equal to even some of the more strident student union pages.

Why might this be? And before you begin to surmise that the Monopoly Men have just "become good", remember that the game hasn't changed.

Last edited by kool maudit; Jan 29, 2021 at 4:29 PM.
     
     
  #598  
Old Posted Jan 29, 2021, 4:34 PM
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The same entities that created the colonial realities from which the slurs and prejudices came are now leading the effort to cleanse us of their ashes, using everything from cotton balls to firehoses.

It's interesting. I mean, there is certainly something like a karmic overhang to the past five centuries of Europe+her children, but these entities are not playing at the level where one chooses to absorb such debts for one's own betterment. They're playing Age of Empires, like they always did. So yeah -- it's interesting.
     
     
  #599  
Old Posted Jan 29, 2021, 4:47 PM
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There are two elements to this, let's call them "bottom-up" and "top-down". On the bottom-up side, of course you have the legacies of the civil and gay rights movements, which have all but eliminated any rhetorical foundation (within liberalism) for civil status hierarchies based on almost any identity marker. A clean-up operation was probably to be expected, and you know how it is when you find a stubborn stain on an otherwise gleaming surface -- you get in there and apply some elbow grease. That's why the activism looks as it does.

A lot of things occur on the grassroots level, however, but fail to achieve any institutional power -- just look at the anti-war movement. That's where the top-down comes in. If you visit the homepages of the great Anglo-American capital foundations -- Rockefeller, Ford, Wellcome -- you will find a focus on what we are calling "wokeness" (it calls itself "social justice", typically) that is near-equal to even some of the more strident student union pages.

Why might this be? And before you begin to surmise that the Monopoly Men have just "become good", remember that the game hasn't changed.
Maybe this is just what a massive revolutionary sea change feels like mid-stream? Revolutions don't necessarily always involve a crowd storming the Bastille or chopping off people's heads.
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  #600  
Old Posted Jan 29, 2021, 5:17 PM
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Look at the Western world using the terms in play, whatever their real value or coherence.

You have a declining ethnic core of about 12% of the global total. Their countries are enormously, disproportionately wealthy following five centuries of European colonialism and hegemony. They are comparatively sterile, they are old, and policy across all of their major power centres is to maintain postwar demographic structures through migration.

Over the horizon, there is the world that once stood as a cache to be mined, harvested and repopulated. There are bitter memories of this. The fortunes that did these things and were made from these things remain in control of an enormous share of global wealth and influence, through various vehicles and in various forms.

What do?

I could think of worse strategies than a radical rhetorical alignment in favour of the second population, using the US civil rights movement (MLK etc.) and the 1960s post-colonial movement (Fanon etc.) as your narrative templates.

It could decrease the restiveness of the once-dispossessed, who are now a mass presence in your capitals. It could put you on the fatter demographic side for the future. If it looks forced or crude or careless, those are benefits. They raise the visibility of what, after all, are only financial/commercial trends. You get it so people pick sides.

It won't hurt anyone important; there were always compassionate fellow-travelers. You can be that. Your institutions can be that. Is it even patronage when some of the beliefs that once excluded whole populations actually were stupid? Well yeah, it is, if the owners don't change. But it's better.

When you write it like this, it sounds like something that people sat in a room and decided, but I don't think these sorts of narratives need that. I think they are emergent properties of systems.





An "anti-woke" Ford Foundation, whatever the philosophical import (meaningless stuff you hire writers for), would be a bad long-term vehicle for capital.

Last edited by kool maudit; Jan 29, 2021 at 5:30 PM.
     
     
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