HomeDiagramsDatabaseMapsForum About
     

Go Back   SkyscraperPage Forum > Regional Sections > Canada


Closed Thread

 
Thread Tools Display Modes
     
     
  #41  
Old Posted Dec 2, 2020, 5:02 PM
jamincan jamincan is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jul 2020
Location: KW
Posts: 1,438
Quote:
Originally Posted by milomilo View Post
This would be a lot easier if there were gender neutral terms for he, she etc, and would be win, win for both "woke" and "anti woke". So I find it quite counter productive that often the same people who complain about being told what gender someone is are also resistant to new gender neutral terms, as if it's the first time in history the english language has been modified.

When it comes to trans issues for me personally it is the one issue I am least progressive on, I don't think the extremes we are going to today to redefine biology are going to be where we end up in the end. I think a more desirable end point is just less importance placed on societal gender, so it won't matter so much whether someone is a he or she in terms of how they live their life.

I see Ellen Page is now a he. Despite the fact (s)he is obviously still female. Wouldn't it be easier if he/she was just ze or something?
We do have gender neutral singular pronouns - they and them.
     
     
  #42  
Old Posted Dec 2, 2020, 5:04 PM
Aylmer's Avatar
Aylmer Aylmer is offline
Still optimistic
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Montreal (C-D-N) / Ottawa (Aylmer)
Posts: 5,383
Quote:
Originally Posted by milomilo View Post
This would be a lot easier if there were gender neutral terms for he, she etc, and would be win, win for both "woke" and "anti woke". So I find it quite counter productive that often the same people who complain about being told what gender someone is are also resistant to new gender neutral terms, as if it's the first time in history the english language has been modified.

When it comes to trans issues for me personally it is the one issue I am least progressive on, I don't think the extremes we are going to today to redefine biology are going to be where we end up in the end. I think a more desirable end point is just less importance placed on societal gender, so it won't matter so much whether someone is a he or she in terms of how they live their life.

I see Ellen Page is now a he. Despite the fact (s)he is obviously still female. Wouldn't it be easier if he/she was just ze or something?
Keep in mind that non-binary (ze, etc.) isn't the same as trans. My understanding is that trans people generally still want to play one of the two gender roles (man or woman). If you're a trans guy, you want to look like any other guy and be treated like any other guy. I've met guys and girls who I had no idea were trans, and you probably have too. And that's kinda the point - they don't want special treatment or to be set apart. Calling him 'ze' would defeat that.
__________________
I've always struggled with reality. And I'm pleased to say that I won.
     
     
  #43  
Old Posted Dec 2, 2020, 5:04 PM
wave46 wave46 is offline
Closed account
 
Join Date: Aug 2016
Posts: 3,875
I'm having a nomenclature / definition issue.

Sex = whether you are male or female (X/Y) chromosome. Generally what people conflate with gender.

Gender = woman/man construct imposed by society about the intangible characteristics of males or females based on their sex.

The issue being that they're generally linked in most people's minds. Thus, most assume sex = gender, because for most people it is.

So, I might make the incorrect assumption that Elliot Page is a woman based on female physical characteristics. But he's not.

This is correct, right?
     
     
  #44  
Old Posted Dec 2, 2020, 5:04 PM
shappy's Avatar
shappy shappy is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Mar 2004
Posts: 2,238
Quote:
Originally Posted by lio45 View Post
"Help, you're being repressed / cancelled"...?
Video Link
     
     
  #45  
Old Posted Dec 2, 2020, 5:18 PM
Aylmer's Avatar
Aylmer Aylmer is offline
Still optimistic
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Montreal (C-D-N) / Ottawa (Aylmer)
Posts: 5,383
Quote:
Originally Posted by wave46 View Post
So, I might make the incorrect assumption that Elliot Page is a woman based on female physical characteristics. But he's not.

This is correct, right?
You've got the definitions, yep. There are some instances where sex is important (such as medically). But since most of us aren't doctors at a medical consultation, gender is generally what's most useful.

A good example is if you go to meet a trans guy at a restaurant. Elliot Page isn't a great example because he's early in transition. Let's take Men's Health coverboy Aydian Dowling:



If you go to the server at the entrance and say "I'm meeting a woman in a blue shirt", you won't get far. You've identified the correct sex (medical characteristics), but the incorrect gender (social identification).
__________________
I've always struggled with reality. And I'm pleased to say that I won.
     
     
  #46  
Old Posted Dec 2, 2020, 5:20 PM
jamincan jamincan is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jul 2020
Location: KW
Posts: 1,438
Quote:
Originally Posted by wave46 View Post
I'm having a nomenclature / definition issue.

Sex = whether you are male or female (X/Y) chromosome. Generally what people conflate with gender.

Gender = woman/man construct imposed by society about the intangible characteristics of males or females based on their sex.

The issue being that they're generally linked in most people's minds. Thus, most assume sex = gender, because for most people it is.

So, I might make the incorrect assumption that Elliot Page is a woman based on female physical characteristics. But he's not.

This is correct, right?
Basically, yes. And I personally don't think there's anything wrong with assuming that is true considering for the vast majority of the population it is true. Usually someone will try to present one way or another and it is pretty much universally understood that you should refer to someone as they are presenting. If you're not sure, there are perfectly good gender neutral pronouns you can use instead (they/them) which imply nothing about gender and which no one would blink at if you use them. If someone specifically identifies their pronouns, use them. It seems absurd to me that some people take issue with respecting someone's wishes in that regard.

FYI - sex determination is way more complicated than simply whether or not you have a Y chromosome. The most accessible resource I've heard that covers the science about it is Radiolab's series Gonads: https://www.wnycstudios.org/podcasts...resents-gonads
     
     
  #47  
Old Posted Dec 2, 2020, 5:25 PM
Acajack's Avatar
Acajack Acajack is online now
Unapologetic Occidental
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Province 2, Canadian Empire
Posts: 67,766
Quote:
Originally Posted by Aylmer View Post
Your premise is flawed though. Things like race and gender are things that you can't hide. In fact, they don't have full meaning without the recognition of others. If you wake up tomorrow identifying as black, what does that mean if no one recognizes you that way? Religion, tastes, sexual orientation, you can keep entirely secret and remain true no matter what anyone else thinks. That's not the case of gender.

Your concern for the non-binary and trans is very woke, congratulations But watch out - if you're invoking in good faith the fleeting discomfort of quickly stating your gender, you also have to acknowledge the much greater discomfort of being misgendered.
With all due respect, I think you're making the arguments match the "moment in time" instead of match the logic.

I don't think you and I can speak conclusively about what every non-binary or trans person would prefer.

That's why the societal baseline has been "private is private", and everyone gets to decide what they want to share, and coercion to do so is unwelcome.

I'd also disagree with your breakdown of what's visible and what isn't.

Régine Chassagne of Arcade Fire is of Haitian origin and Black but a lot of people would probably intuitively consider her white just by what she looks like.

One of my kids is olive-skinned so definitely not "pink" like Rob and Doug Ford, and therefore could be Southern European, Middle Eastern or Latin American.

Which I guess makes my kid borderline non-white but... so what? Generic "non-white" being a totally meaningless construct from an ethno-cultural and even racial perspective. There is nothing really obvious to anyone about my kid in this respect. No one can guess... "Oh, you're Persian."

As for sexual orientation being something you can keep entirely secret, I guess you've never heard of gay-bashing? Not everyone who is homosexual can keep it entirely secret it seems, and even some people who are heterosexual have trouble keeping their presumed homosexuality (based on stereotypes) secret and they get bashed for being gay when they're not!
__________________
Amber alerts welcome at any time
     
     
  #48  
Old Posted Dec 2, 2020, 5:33 PM
Acajack's Avatar
Acajack Acajack is online now
Unapologetic Occidental
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Province 2, Canadian Empire
Posts: 67,766
Quote:
Originally Posted by Truenorth00 View Post
How? I've literally never seen this outside the internet. So yeah pretty irrelevant to me. And also why, to me, a lot of the kvetching over this, seems like yet another cultural anxiety issue blown out of proportion by the usual suspects.

If someone were to correct me on their preferred pronoun, I'd have no issues using it. Wouldn't give me much stress. I'd probably be amused to be honest. I don't get why people get bent out of shape on this.
I know these people do exist hiding under rocks somewhere, but do you actually think anyone on here who makes a pronoun mistake wouldn't respond with an "Oh sorry", and then use the correct pronoun from that point on?

Do you actually think that any of us would deliberately refer to a person who has obviously male traits but is dressed as a female as "he" just to make them feel bad?

Is your esteem of people that low?

Oh and BTW, according to what I've seen in the past 24 hours, we're not supposed to say "preferred" pronouns anymore. Just pronouns without a qualifier. Because it's not about a preference, it's about what's true. Adding "preferred" makes it sound like people are being fussy or prissy. It's insulting.

A number of journalists have been flamed for using "preferred" in articles about Elliott Page.
__________________
Amber alerts welcome at any time
     
     
  #49  
Old Posted Dec 2, 2020, 5:49 PM
jamincan jamincan is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jul 2020
Location: KW
Posts: 1,438
Quote:
Originally Posted by Acajack View Post
I don't think you and I can speak conclusively about what every non-binary or trans person would prefer.
You can't speak at all about what any non-binary or trans person would prefer, and neither can I. Most trans organizations seem broadly supportive of normalizing sharing your pronouns (notably, for everyone, not just trans or non-binary people) and I trust they wouldn't recommend this if a significant number of trans people were uncomfortable with the practice or didn't welcome it.

That said, in some cases it indeed might make someone uncomfortable. This opinion piece challenges the practice, noting two instances where the question was unwelcome: https://www.insidehighered.com/views...d-idea-opinion I'm not convinced that these specific situations outweigh the broader good, but I also am not really in a position to make that judgement.
     
     
  #50  
Old Posted Dec 2, 2020, 5:52 PM
wg_flamip wg_flamip is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Mar 2014
Location: Toronto
Posts: 825
Quote:
Originally Posted by Loco101 View Post
I am very disappointed that we don't have our preferred pronouns below our names!!!
Disregarding the politics of it, I find including personal pronouns in correspondence to be extremely helpful. I deal with a lot of people at work from across the country, the vast majority of whom I will never meet in person or see a photo of. Many of these people have gender ambiguous names or names I'm not familiar with. Having those preferred pronouns there helps me to avoid misgendering someone, which has the potential to cause not only offence or embarrassment but also confusion. Let's say, for example, I'm speaking to a manager about two of her employees (e.g., Sam and Gurinder), with whom I've been in contact over email. If I misgender either or both of them, the potential is there for a consequential misunderstanding.
     
     
  #51  
Old Posted Dec 2, 2020, 5:56 PM
Aylmer's Avatar
Aylmer Aylmer is offline
Still optimistic
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Montreal (C-D-N) / Ottawa (Aylmer)
Posts: 5,383
Quote:
Originally Posted by Acajack View Post
With all due respect, I think you're making the arguments match the "moment in time" instead of match the logic.

I don't think you and I can speak conclusively about what every non-binary or trans person would prefer.

That's why the societal baseline has been "private is private", and everyone gets to decide what they want to share, and coercion to do so is unwelcome.

I'd also disagree with your breakdown of what's visible and what isn't.

Régine Chassagne of Arcade Fire is of Haitian origin and Black but a lot of people would probably intuitively consider her white just by what she looks like.

One of my kids is olive-skinned so definitely not "pink" like Rob and Doug Ford, and therefore could be Southern European, Middle Eastern or Latin American.

Which I guess makes my kid borderline non-white but... so what? Generic "non-white" being a totally meaningless construct from an ethno-cultural and even racial perspective. There is nothing really obvious to anyone about my kid in this respect. No one can guess... "Oh, you're Persian."

As for sexual orientation being something you can keep entirely secret, I guess you've never heard of gay-bashing? Not everyone who is homosexual can keep it entirely secret it seems, and even some people who are heterosexual have trouble keeping their presumed homosexuality (based on stereotypes) secret and they get bashed for being gay when they're not!


Tell me more about what it's like to be gay and mixed-race I mean, you actually know who I am irl, so I know you can appreciate the irony

The strawman has successfully and impressively defeated and Acajack, I'm totally on board with your wokeness: race is complicated and the gays shouldn't be bashed.

But if you want to engage with what I wrote, I said that things like sexual orientation remain true in the absence of anyone else acknowledging it. I don't need anyone to recognize my gay-ness to be gay. But my masculinity loses meaning if people don't agree that I'm a man.
__________________
I've always struggled with reality. And I'm pleased to say that I won.
     
     
  #52  
Old Posted Dec 2, 2020, 5:57 PM
Acajack's Avatar
Acajack Acajack is online now
Unapologetic Occidental
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Province 2, Canadian Empire
Posts: 67,766
Quote:
Originally Posted by wg_flamip View Post
Disregarding the politics of it, I find including personal pronouns in correspondence to be extremely helpful. I deal with a lot of people at work from across the country, the vast majority of whom I will never meet in person or see a photo of. Many of these people have gender ambiguous names or names I'm not familiar with. Having those preferred pronouns there helps me to avoid misgendering someone, which has the potential to cause not only offence or embarrassment but also confusion. Let's say, for example, I'm speaking to a manager about two of her employees (e.g., Sam and Gurinder), with whom I've been in contact over email. If I misgender either or both of them, the potential is there for a consequential misunderstanding.
Good example and good points!
__________________
Amber alerts welcome at any time
     
     
  #53  
Old Posted Dec 2, 2020, 6:06 PM
niwell's Avatar
niwell niwell is online now
sick transit, gloria
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: Roncesvalles, Toronto
Posts: 11,023
Quote:
Originally Posted by hipster duck View Post
Shakespeare in high school is the last vestige of the 'Great Books' philosophy of pedagogy. One where all people - regardless of class or background - have a knowledge of a selection of important texts and the allegories contained within them. One that gives all of us a common reference point. Beyond creating a polity that shares unified experiences and is less fractured, it helps cultivate critical thinking because we can use well-known passages to explain profound things about the human condition or some of the vagaries of society and everyone will, almost literally, be on the same page. At the very least, we can use it as a jumping off point and skip the difficult step of communicating complex topics without knowing where to start.

This has to be taught at the high school level. Even if most of the kids are too young to grasp these texts, you have to reach as many people as possible. Not everyone will go to university, and most university programs have become more narrow and technical, so it's not like most people will have the chance to be exposed to the great texts there, either.

How much more prepared and resilient would our society be if we had truck drivers and personal support workers who dropped out after Grade 12 understanding what we're talking about when we say something like "Deepfakes are concerning and we can't take things at face value. It's a problem we've been grappling with since Plato talked about the allegory of the cave"?

PS: it doesn’t have to be Shakespeare or even a Western text, but Shakespeare has (or, in theory, should have) the benefit of common knowledge for all generations. You could abandon Shakespeare and have kids read something new but then we wouldn’t all have a common reference point. Path dependency.


Don't get me wrong - I would never advocate to stop teaching Shakespeare in high school. It is extremely important for the reasons you and others have stated.. just rarely that fun in the context of the classroom. There's a lot more leeway with many of the other commonly read works.
__________________
Check out my pics of Johannesburg
     
     
  #54  
Old Posted Dec 2, 2020, 6:16 PM
someone123's Avatar
someone123 someone123 is offline
hähnchenbrüstfiletstüc
 
Join Date: Nov 2001
Location: Vancouver
Posts: 33,677
Quote:
Originally Posted by Aylmer View Post
I don't need anyone to recognize my gay-ness to be gay. But my masculinity loses meaning if people don't agree that I'm a man.
I see what you mean about there being agreed-upon conventions for referring to people by gender in society. However, I don't think this particular attempt to contrast sexual orientation and identity holds up very well.

Elliott Page could privately identify as male or hold traditionally male-identified internal feelings and preferences, but needs others to be on board when engaging with society as a male. The exact same thing is true with sexual orientation. You can internally be attracted to members of the same sex, but in practice if you want to actually form relationships and so on you need others to be on board with it (at minimum you will need 1 other person to be on board). The old conservative anti-gay view was that being gay was just a preference which may or may not manifest itself in behaviour and so gay people should just shut up about it and live like everybody else.

I'm also a bit skeptical of narratives that assume that gay or trans individuals are exactly the same as anybody else in every way except for attraction or which of the two clearly-defined gender norms they pick. For example gay men are exactly the same as straight men except for the attraction to women vs. men. I think there is often some homophobia embedded in this view. In some cultures, gay or trans people were considered distinct and I don't think that's necessarily less correct or more harmful than the more conventional framing popular in Western society today. Decades ago some early gay activists also lobbied for something like acknowledgement of gays or lesbians as being distinct genders, partly to qualify for protections against sex discrimination. That view has really dropped off the radar but it's interesting from a historical perspective. These days I've noticed that as trans issues have gone more mainstream they've hardened a lot more into a binary and there's more shoehorning into what are sometimes very traditional and rigid gender norms. The "trans vs. cis" stuff is a part of that.
     
     
  #55  
Old Posted Dec 2, 2020, 6:23 PM
jamincan jamincan is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jul 2020
Location: KW
Posts: 1,438
Quote:
Originally Posted by someone123 View Post
I'm also a bit skeptical of narratives that assume that gay or trans individuals are exactly the same as anybody else in every way except for attraction or which of the two clearly-defined gender norms they pick. For example gay men are exactly the same as straight men except for the attraction to women vs. men. I think there is often some homophobia embedded in this view. In some cultures, gay or trans people were considered distinct and I don't think that's necessarily less correct than the more conventional framing popular in Western society today. Decades ago some early gay activists also lobbied for something like acknowledgement of gays or lesbians as being distinct genders, partly to qualify for protections against sex discrimination. That view has really dropped off the radar but it's interesting from a historical perspective.
Is that the narrative? I think it's that everyone deserves to be treated with dignity and respect regardless of their gender or orientation or race and so forth.
     
     
  #56  
Old Posted Dec 2, 2020, 6:28 PM
Aylmer's Avatar
Aylmer Aylmer is offline
Still optimistic
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Montreal (C-D-N) / Ottawa (Aylmer)
Posts: 5,383
But being gay or straight isn't substantially diminished by not being in a relationship. It's primary a question of internal feelings like attraction and desire. If a straight man never marries... he's still straight.

Gender is primarily a social category. So not having it recognized in society substantially diminishes it. It's why the people who invoke the very edgy "I definitely as an attack helicopter" miss the mark.
__________________
I've always struggled with reality. And I'm pleased to say that I won.
     
     
  #57  
Old Posted Dec 2, 2020, 6:33 PM
someone123's Avatar
someone123 someone123 is offline
hähnchenbrüstfiletstüc
 
Join Date: Nov 2001
Location: Vancouver
Posts: 33,677
Quote:
Originally Posted by jamincan View Post
Is that the narrative? I think it's that everyone deserves to be treated with dignity and respect regardless of their gender or orientation or race and so forth.
I worded it the way I did because there isn't "a" narrative, but I am responding to what I have commonly seen and not a made up perspective.

One quote from this thread (not blaming Aylmer, just pointing it out):

Quote:
Elliot Page isn't a great example because he's early in transition
What's the transition process? Is Elliott Page going to physically transition to the point where an average person without background knowledge would identify him as male? How many people know that bottom surgery is actually pretty rare and has mediocre outcomes? There's a high chance that Elliott will be a male-identified individual with a vagina, which will be a relevant consideration for sex partners and health in the future.

Another example I see is people who seem to jump to the conclusion that kids are either (1) strongly traditionally male identified, (2) strongly traditionally female identified, or (3) trans and will basically pick (1) or (2) once they figure it out. A very large number of gay men start out not following traditional behaviour norms for their gender (e.g. not interested in violent games and competition) yet grow up to be happy with their biological sex.
     
     
  #58  
Old Posted Dec 2, 2020, 6:34 PM
milomilo milomilo is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Dec 2013
Location: Calgary
Posts: 10,499
Quote:
Originally Posted by jamincan View Post
We do have gender neutral singular pronouns - they and them.
It doesn't exactly fit though, it does sound natural when referring to an individual to say something like "they did this", which sounds like you are talking about multiple people. We could just ignore that for a bit though and have those be the gender neutral singular terms and it would sound normal eventually.
     
     
  #59  
Old Posted Dec 2, 2020, 6:37 PM
Acajack's Avatar
Acajack Acajack is online now
Unapologetic Occidental
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Province 2, Canadian Empire
Posts: 67,766
Quote:
Originally Posted by Aylmer View Post

The strawman has successfully and impressively defeated and Acajack, I'm totally on board with your wokeness: race is complicated and the gays shouldn't be bashed..
Thanks for the compliment, but I am not aspiring to be woke.

I aspire to knowledge, fairness, enrichment, etc.
__________________
Amber alerts welcome at any time
     
     
  #60  
Old Posted Dec 2, 2020, 6:37 PM
someone123's Avatar
someone123 someone123 is offline
hähnchenbrüstfiletstüc
 
Join Date: Nov 2001
Location: Vancouver
Posts: 33,677
Quote:
Originally Posted by Aylmer View Post
But being gay or straight isn't substantially diminished by not being in a relationship. It's primary a question of internal feelings like attraction and desire. If a straight man never marries... he's still straight.

Gender is primarily a social category. So not having it recognized in society substantially diminishes it. It's why the people who invoke the very edgy "I definitely as an attack helicopter" miss the mark.
You can frame gender identity exactly in the same way. If Elliott Page feels he is a man, why does he need Karen at Starbucks to affirm that identity based on his physical appearance?

Conversely gay people have expended an awful lot of effort on being able to have relationships with each other (may just include sex or be romantic).
     
     
This discussion thread continues

Use the page links to the lower-right to go to the next page for additional posts
 
 
Closed Thread

Go Back   SkyscraperPage Forum > Regional Sections > Canada
Forum Jump


Thread Tools
Display Modes

Forum Jump


All times are GMT. The time now is 5:52 PM.

     
SkyscraperPage.com - Archive - Privacy Statement - Top

Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.