Gibson School Lofts | ?m | 4 fl | Proposed

[Zmonkey]

There are others who are doing it right in hamilton, this is still a great pledge to invest. Just do a lot of homework before putting down your money, I purchased Stinson almost 5 years ago and just moved in during spring with long list of issues.

He knows I want to buy a 2nd property in Hamilton and bugs me every few days about Gibson. In my head I'm just like please finish this project the way it should be.

[interr0bangr]

I noticed some action here today when walking by, seems like Stinson is prepping to start with development soon?

They chopped down all the trees out front and started cleaning the brick, it looks great.

[davidcappi]

There are so many downtown buildings that could use a good sandblast.

[king10]

wow what a difference in colour. looks amazing. never knew the brick was so beautiful and vibrant

[ScreamingViking]

Originally Posted by king10

wow what a difference in colour. looks amazing. never knew the brick was so beautiful and vibrant

Same thoughts here. I like the darker strip at the top - it really stands out now.

From the renders it looks like they're keeping the addition fronting Barton St. (I'm guessing it was built in the 1960s or early 70s?) but the building would be so much nicer without it. It will bring that retail component closer to the street however.

Originally Posted by MeIsThomas

Source

[Zmonkey]

There's no financing for the project yet, Harry is out pitching investors a lot these days.
I live in Stinson school, and get pitched to invest a couple times a week.

[matt602]

I agree that the modern addition at the front of the school looks hideous but if it were re-clad and opened up with storefronts like in the rendering, it could look good.

I'd also be willing to bet that Harry won't be finishing this project himself. I'm willing to bet that it gets turned over to someone like core urban halfway through. Maybe Spalacci would be interested given their experience with the West Ave conversion further up the street.

[Dr Awesomesauce]

They likely did a lot of damage to the facade when they added the front portion (gymnasium, I'm guessing) to the school. It'll look good once once they carve out some windows, do some landscaping, etc.

[interr0bangr]

I saw a public notice sign posted on the front doors a few days ago when I drove by but when I walked back to check it out more closely last night it had been taken down. Anyone know what it said? Does the city have a public, online list of active demo/variance permits anywhere?

[palace1]

Originally Posted by interr0bangr

Does the city have a public, online list of active demo/variance permits anywhere?

There is an online Building Permit status search
http://www.hamilton.ca/UPP/BuildingS...rmitSearch.htm

You have to search by address (unless you know the permit number) and large projects can have several possible addresses so it's not very user-friendly.

I don't know of anything online for zoning variance applications other than the current process of posting notices in windows.
It doesn't make sense expecting someone driving by at 50 km/h to notice them. Even walking by you need a pen and paper or a camera to take down the information, and would then have to spend the time to call the city and ask what the variance is for.

Every time I see one posted in a window, I'm curious what by-law #### is and what the variance requested is, but I have never taken the effort to call the city to find out.

[LikeHamilton]

New video for the Gibson School Lofts published on Feb 18, 2015

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tFnYZ_nB36Q

[interr0bangr]

Looks real nice.

[thomax]

thespec.com - Sales launched at Gibson School Lofts



Source


By Meredith MacLeod

The developer behind the rebirth of Gibson School as condos is confident he will easily sell out the project.

Harry Stinson officially launched public sales of 80 units at the century-old Barton Street landmark Monday.

"There is great interest in it," said Stinson, who added his confidence in selling even the bigger units is growing as prospective buyers call and visit his office.

Stinson says the reception is completely different from the early days at his first school conversion in Hamilton, the Stinson Lofts. Lenders who weren't interested in financing that project are now calling him, he says.

"Hamilton is on the radar of the big lenders now."

The Gothic school features large windows, wide corridors, interior brick walls, hardwood floors and 14-foot ceilings. Even the basement units have 10-foot-high ceilings.

The Gibson project includes 26 glass-wrapped penthouse units on a fourth storey that will be built and a café in the former school office that Stinson plans to own himself.

There are plans for six townhouse units in the former gymnasium and more on the school grounds that could eventually bring the total number of units to 106.

Stinson is offering a builder buyback program in which he will offer a fixed rate of return — 10 per cent on a $20,000 investment, for instance — upon completion of the project. The rate of return climbs with increased investment.

Stinson says it helps to line up construction financing and, for him, it's a means to cash in on greater profits because units sell for more as projects are completed.

Stinson says Barton reminds him of Toronto's Queen Street West at the time he and partners made what was seen as a crazy investment in a derelict former factory. The Candy Factory Lofts is credited for being a catalyst of gentrification in that neighbourhood.

"I think the turnaround on Barton would happen like that," he said. "I'm prepared to gamble on the future of the area."

There are a dozen units left of the 66 condos in the former Stinson School. Stinson says he recently sold a one-bedroom on the penthouse level for $460,000.



By the numbers

Prices at the Gibson Lofts range from $99,900 for a 450-square-foot studio to $499,900 for a three-bedroom, 1,500-square-foot corner penthouse.

Parking spaces are $14,900 and monthly condo fees, which includes security and a daytime concierge, will be 45 cents per square foot.

[HillStreetBlues]

Originally Posted by MeIsThomas

Stinson is offering a builder buyback program in which he will offer a fixed rate of return — 10 per cent on a $20,000 investment, for instance — upon completion of the project. The rate of return climbs with increased investment.

Could someone explain this to me? He's asking for investments from purchasers? Earlier in the article, it made it seem like lenders were calling him. Is this kind of thing usual?

[interr0bangr]

Originally Posted by HillStreetBlues

Could someone explain this to me? He's asking for investments from purchasers? Earlier in the article, it made it seem like lenders were calling him. Is this kind of thing usual?

This video explains it: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oH66Yi5Br98

[Pearlstreet]

I love this guy! Bring on the haters.

[fizzle]

This dude, with a straight face, is telling people to transfer their investments from RRSPs into this thing. And his reasoning? Your RRSP is making you "0.5 to 1%" annually, versus the "10 to 12% or more" you'll make off this project.

Listen, you can call me a hater or whatever. This dude is a snake oil salesman. The ENTIRE premise of this builder buyback thing is that he will be able to flip units after construction for more than what they're listed at today. And he'll do it within 3 years.

This could conceivably work in a market like downtown Toronto where there would be incredible demand for a loft condo like Gibson - but there's the rub - a loft condo like Gibson wouldn't need this type of scheme to get off the ground in the first place because banks would lend that money in a heartbeat for a project like it in a good location.

I also am a big believer in prior experience driving future predicition - did this 'post-construction' appreciate happen at Stinson School Lofts? Absolutely not. In fact, there are still lofts for sale FROM THE BUILDER at Stinson School Lofts. I wrote a post a while ago about how disastrous that entire pricing structure was.

And now he's using 3 years as a timeline for construction when the last project went what, 5 years? What happens when in order to make his 3 year timeline so he doesn't have to pay annualized 10% borrowing costs to investors, he rushes the whole thing and you end up with a shi

Essentially this dude keep referencing success he had 20 years ago with The Candy Factory lofts like it's easily repeatable in any city (which wasn't just his own doing anyways), which in retrospect seems like it would have happened to ANYONE developing that building/area in Toronto.

And he wants you to lend him money essentially because the banks aren't. And he wants you to trust his post-construction resale story, even though his last project, in an arguably better development, hasn't borne such fruit.

Ugh. I'm so annoyed.

I've said it once and I'll say it again- giving him your money for '3 years' is a fools game. And it bothers me that he's targeting RRSPs and investors and possibly bilking people out of retirement savings. But whatever.

[HillStreetBlues]

Originally Posted by fizzle

This dude, with a straight face, is telling people to transfer their investments from RRSPs into this thing. And his reasoning? Your RRSP is making you "0.5 to 1%" annually, versus the "10 to 12% or more" you'll make off this project.

Listen, you can call me a hater or whatever. This dude is a snake oil salesman. The ENTIRE premise of this builder buyback thing is that he will be able to flip units after construction for more than what they're listed at today. And he'll do it within 3 years.

...

I've said it once and I'll say it again- giving him your money for '3 years' is a fools game. And it bothers me that he's targeting RRSPs and investors and possibly bilking people out of retirement savings. But whatever.

If this guy were selling securities, the OSC would have his license in a heartbeat. I'm not informed enough to make comments about his claims or the quality of his developments, but you can not compare investments with different risk levels, and you can not talk about specific returns over specific (short) periods. You must explain the risk of lower returns or losses. Well, that's true of people who promote stocks, but not real estate. People selling real estate are basically without regulation, and can say whatever they please.

[fizzle]

Originally Posted by HillStreetBlues

If this guy were selling securities, the OSC would have his license in a heartbeat. I'm not informed enough to make comments about his claims or the quality of his developments, but you can not compare investments with different risk levels, and you can not talk about specific returns over specific (short) periods. You must explain the risk of lower returns or losses. Well, that's true of people who promote stocks, but not real estate. People selling real estate are basically without regulation, and can say whatever they please.

Right.

Here's the game he's proposing as I understand it:

• Place a 'down payment' of $20k or more on a unit
• I will use this money to build my condo project
• In three years when the project is complete, I will pay you 10% per year for your deposit (+1% for every $10k over and above $20k) and I will flip the condo for a profit
• Or you know, you can keep the condo you put the money down on because you love the building
• PROFIT FOR EVERYONE!

Let's take his hypothetical $100k studio loft as an example.

I give him $20k. Three years from now, a miracle occurs and the project is completed on time, and he gives me my $20k back plus $6600. The loft is now worth...who knows.

In his scenario, the loft is now worth $130k, and he's making $24k more on the sale than he was originally.

Is that a realistic scenario? He's predicting 10% growth on a $100k condo in a softening market for 3 straight years, give or take a percentage point.

What if the condo takes an extra year? He's just given you another $3300. Is he assuming a higher valuation at that point?

What if he doesn't get the growth he expects? An entirely reasonable assumption with a softening market, an unconventional locale for this loft, and to be quite honest, the history of the Stinson School Lofts. Best case scenario, he breaks even. Worst case scenario, he is negative on some lofts, positive on others, maybe makes money, maybe doesn't.

But who cares about him right? If he breaks even, that's on him. As long as you get your $20k back plus interest.

But what if he just goes bankrupt? Then what? I don't have a contract in front of me, but it's not crazy to imagine that the money you expect in interest, all of it, goes poof. And then you're stuck with a down payment on a condo you never wanted to live in to begin with. Assuming it even gets built.

edit- Also, who the hell is only making 1% on their RRSPs???

[Zmonkey]

I live in Stinson school, a building which has many issues. So just be cautious if you will hand this man your money.