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  #2941  
Old Posted Jul 29, 2020, 7:23 PM
DePaul Bunyan DePaul Bunyan is offline
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Originally Posted by sentinel View Post
Well, as for Gary, I'd rather have my state have the revenue, taxes, etc, than a neighboring state.

Rockford is already a well-known and busy airport, that probably doesn't need to be expanded now.

The location in Peotone (closer to Beecher, actually), makes sense not just for the proximity to industrial corridors in IN, as well as I-80, I-55, I-57, I-294, etc., but there is already a small airport there, and there is plenty of land to expand if needed. The SSA (South Suburban Airport) is nothing new, IDOT and the state have been working on it for years and years and years; you can even seen the latest master plans from 2016 that show a very clearly defined phasing of what may end up being a large national or even international airport:

https://www.southsuburbanairport.com...MP-reports.htm

https://www.southsuburbanairport.com...14-ULT-ALP.pdf

Long story short, having a third major airport is never a bad thing, especially when it's located in or near the one area with the largest growth in our region (Will county). There's a strange phenomenon in the state of Illinois and even the Chicago metro area that growth and expansion is unnecessary, we're fine with what we have, and fuck the future. Even if we weren't in the middle of a plague, there will always be a need to fly, and it will keep growing and growing because people want to travel, good need to move around the world, so....why not?
Illinois is not in a financial position to build a 3rd vanity airport, which has always been about enriching Springfield-connected construction firms and clout-heavy south side players. The airlines aren't asking for it, and that includes the cargo carriers, who are quite happy with MEM, CVG, and other regional airports with existing, underutilized infrastructure (CVG especially since DL barely has a presence there any more) and more accommodating, less burdensome regulatory and labor environments. They also have better weather, and cargo operations generate a fraction of the traffic and revenue that passenger carriers do. Cargo operators fly way less frequently than passenger jets (less runway/landing fees), don't have passengers (no revenue from ticketing fees and airport retail, parking, concessions, etc.), and don't require a huge presence in the terminal (no rent/lease revenue from operating gates, lounges, etc.). GYY and RFD are already Chicago's 3rd/4th airports.

EDIT: Additionally, RFD is already a major hub for UPS, and Amazon Air already utilizes the airport.
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Last edited by DePaul Bunyan; Jul 29, 2020 at 7:58 PM.
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  #2942  
Old Posted Aug 3, 2020, 7:20 AM
Will O' Wisp Will O' Wisp is online now
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Originally Posted by DePaul Bunyan View Post
Illinois is not in a financial position to build a 3rd vanity airport, which has always been about enriching Springfield-connected construction firms and clout-heavy south side players. The airlines aren't asking for it, and that includes the cargo carriers, who are quite happy with MEM, CVG, and other regional airports with existing, underutilized infrastructure (CVG especially since DL barely has a presence there any more) and more accommodating, less burdensome regulatory and labor environments. They also have better weather, and cargo operations generate a fraction of the traffic and revenue that passenger carriers do. Cargo operators fly way less frequently than passenger jets (less runway/landing fees), don't have passengers (no revenue from ticketing fees and airport retail, parking, concessions, etc.), and don't require a huge presence in the terminal (no rent/lease revenue from operating gates, lounges, etc.). GYY and RFD are already Chicago's 3rd/4th airports.

EDIT: Additionally, RFD is already a major hub for UPS, and Amazon Air already utilizes the airport.
I feel like there are faster and easier ways to throw your buddies a few million dollars in construction contracts than spending 20+ years trying to build an airport....

Having worked with a couple of airports in Cali on nagging cargo contracts, I can sort of see where they're coming from. Rockford is a fine airport for bringing deliveries into the Chicagoland area, but it's on the opposite side of the city a lot of the of the intermodal yards and industrial land in the Southern Chicago/Gary IN area. With modern JIT manufacturing you want to schedule deliveries down to the hour or even the minute in some cases, driving 80+ miles isn't going to cut it . What you want is something within ~25-50 miles, which if done right can entourage all sorts of high tech, high value manufacturing to locate in the region.

Here in Cali it's a development plan that Ontario, San Bernadino, Victorville, San Diego (at Brown Field), and Sacramento (at Mather) have all followed. But there's two really big issues I see with Chicago trying to copy them.

First, we've had a spotty record with this in Cali. It's really worked well for Ontario, with UPS's western air hub driving it into one of the top cargo airports in the nation. San Bernadino has struggled for years but recently saw a major success in snagging Amazon's western air hub. Mather is a minor UPS hub for Northern CA and the Central Valley. Brown Field has a development plan in place that's been stalled for years, and Victorville has gone nowhere in that direction.

Second, and more importantly, California didn't pay to build any of these airports. I just want to emphasize this, literally every single one of airports I mentioned is a former military base. Back in the Cold War the USAF in particular built many heavy bomber bases in Cali to strike at the Soviet far east and China, often multiple in the same metro just in case one was nuked. With the Cold War over and all these former bases back in civilian hands, it's mostly been a process of figuring out what to do with them. For the life of me I don't get why Illinois wants so badly to replicate a desperate military town trying to pivot post-BRAC.

Further note on Gary's airport: it's a good location for exactly this sort of plan but the runway is a little short. Its the exact same issue we're facing at Brown in San Diego, which itself probably wouldn't pencil out if it weren't right across the border from Mexico to give the area access to that stupendously cheap labor market. There's also the access to the larger Tijuana airport, and the the Navy's preference for supporting manufacturing in San Diego (its primary west coast homeport) combined with its congressional mandate to locate its supply chain entirely within US borders. All that combines to make up for Brown having an 8,000' foot runway, when really what you need is ~10,000' feet to make for an effective cargo hub. Or maybe not, considering San Diego has been struggling to make this work for 15+ years...

Last edited by Will O' Wisp; Aug 3, 2020 at 8:03 AM.
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  #2943  
Old Posted Aug 3, 2020, 3:22 PM
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Steely Dan Steely Dan is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Will O' Wisp View Post

Further note on Gary's airport: it's a good location for exactly this sort of plan but the runway is a little short.
Well, Gary was able to reroute some railroad tracks and extend its main runway from 7,000' to 9,000' several years ago, but thanks to the location of those tracks on one end, and the Grand Calumet River on the other end, that's as long as that runway will ever likely get.
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  #2944  
Old Posted Aug 4, 2020, 2:18 AM
Will O' Wisp Will O' Wisp is online now
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Well, Gary was able to reroute some railroad tracks and extend its main runway from 7,000' to 9,000' several years ago, but thanks to the location of those tracks on one end, and the Grand Calumet River on the other end, that's as long as that runway will ever likely get.
8,859' feet to be exact. Long enough for mid-sized domestic cargo but too short for anything international or even domestic heavies. For that you'd want 9,500' feet at an absolute minimum, and the big boys greatly prefer to see a development plan for extending out to 11,500' before making any major investments. Access to limited amounts of domestic cargo can be an asset for local industry, but it's unlikely to change the area's fortunes much. With all the constraints around Gary though, it'd probably be cheaper to build a new airport in Peotone than extend that runway.

But the whole SSA business case is based on if, ands, and maybes tbh. The manufacturing sector in the Chicagoland area has been struggling for years, for reasons entirely unrelated to a lack of efficient air cargo access. The west coast has access to a larger pool of highly educated workers, labor in the gulf coast is cheaper, and both have several deepwater ports for access to seaborne commerce (which is the cheapest and highest volume method of transporting goods). Without changing that more likely than not you're building another MidAmerica Airport like St. Louis. Have a look how well that was going 12 years in:

Video Link

Last edited by Will O' Wisp; Aug 4, 2020 at 3:12 AM.
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  #2945  
Old Posted Aug 4, 2020, 2:37 AM
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ardecila ardecila is offline
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^ Yeah, but don't worry... our governor is building a light rail extension to MidAmerica Airport that'll finally turn it all around!
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  #2946  
Old Posted Aug 4, 2020, 1:53 PM
k1052 k1052 is offline
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We're going to be arguing about Peotone until about 50 years after teleportation is invented. It's an expensive bad idea and always has been and it should never be built. FIN.
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  #2947  
Old Posted Aug 6, 2020, 7:31 PM
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UPChicago UPChicago is offline
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Will County is home to one of, if not, the largest inland port. Distibution is in high demand in this area. At some point the airport will and should be built and Illiana should also be built.
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  #2948  
Old Posted Aug 7, 2020, 4:08 PM
OrdoSeclorum OrdoSeclorum is offline
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Will County is home to one of, if not, the largest inland port. Distibution is in high demand in this area. At some point the airport will and should be built and Illiana should also be built.
Yuck. CMAP thinks the Illiana is an awful idea, and I think anyone who likes cities would agree. Obviously the financing structure of the last proposal was awful. It would expose the state to a lot of expenses with an incredibly low bang-for-the-buck potential. Spendings bullions to build a giant highway spur in a thinly populated area and hoping for gas stations, Applebees and Dress Barns to pop up around it is something I'd chain myself to a tree to prevent.

But beyond that, it's Illinois paying for infrastructure that largely benefits Indiana. And to the extent it impacts Chicago, it pulls development southwest in a sprawly sort of way.

You don't even need to know much about the Illiana to know what it's like as a project. Metropolitan planners nationwide think it's an awful proposal and truckers, downstate representatives and builders who turn farms into cheap, cul de sac suburbs love it.
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  #2949  
Old Posted Aug 8, 2020, 4:46 PM
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sentinel sentinel is offline
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The Iliana IS an awful idea, but that and a third airport near Peotone are not mutually exclusive. Not sure how the Iliana made it into my original post about future need for a third Chicago airport outside of Rockford and Gary, just for the record..
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  #2950  
Old Posted Sep 2, 2020, 5:59 PM
kbud kbud is offline
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T5 Lounge Space

When flying through ORD last Sunday, I noticed there is construction that is visible from the outside taking place between M8 and M9. On another site someone thought it was Delta building out a new lounge to be ready for when they move to T5. There was also commentary that British Airways is doing the same between gates M10 and M11. Does anyone know if this is accurate? Does anyone have any of the details?

I was hoping that the Delta lounge would be larger than what they have in T2 being co-located with other Sky Team members. Maybe even a Sky Team lounge. The Air France lounge in T5 is tiny and not up to par for a major airport like ORD. I was surprised that BA was doing the same on the other side. Is there current T5 lounge that small, I didn't think it was? But maybe it is if you aren't comparing it to the Air France lounge... I was also wondering if British Airways would now consider moving to T3 to make transfers easier. I know American was maxed out with space, but with the COVID impact maybe that has changed before the One World carriers all move to T2 in 7 years. American still has unused space next to K20 that once was their int'l first class lounge. Maybe it can become British Airway's first class lounge, and their other premium passengers can use the new Flagship Lounge. When I arrived at K20, the doors were actually open to that space and people were inside looking around.
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  #2951  
Old Posted Sep 10, 2020, 4:39 PM
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nomarandlee nomarandlee is offline
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..
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https://thepointsguy.com/news/united...europe-africa/

United Airlines adds 3 Africa routes, Delhi and Bangalore as part of 7-route expansion

United’s other new routes include nonstop service between Chicago O’Hare (ORD) and both Delhi (DEL) and Kona (KOA); Newark (EWR) and Kahului (OGG) on Maui; and San Francisco (SFO) and Bangalore, India (BLR).

......Two major airline trade groups — Airlines for America (A4A) and the International Air Transport Association (IATA) — say they do not expect global air travel to return to 2019 levels until at least 2024.....
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  #2952  
Old Posted Sep 10, 2020, 6:57 PM
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sentinel sentinel is offline
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^^Just in time for the new global terminal to be completed
(I'm kidding...?)
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  #2953  
Old Posted Sep 10, 2020, 11:31 PM
N830MH N830MH is offline
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^^Just in time for the new global terminal to be completed
(I'm kidding...?)
Yes, still have a long way to go. You have wait for a while.
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  #2954  
Old Posted Sep 11, 2020, 12:28 PM
kbud kbud is offline
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Yes, still have a long way to go. You have wait for a while.
The new int’l T2 is supposed to house United and American int’l flights along with their alliance partners. How American is going at ORD, they might not have any long-haul int’l out of ORD by the time it is completed.
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  #2955  
Old Posted Sep 13, 2020, 6:24 AM
N830MH N830MH is offline
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Hi all,

FAA has a great video on the opening of the new RWY 9/27C in November and planned revised airfield configuration in the east and west flows after it opens:

https://www.faa.gov/airports/airport_development/omp/
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