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  #2341  
Old Posted Oct 19, 2021, 8:41 PM
Saul Goode Saul Goode is offline
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Originally Posted by Half-Axed View Post
A different question is "is it suburban in nature and design despite being well within the bounds of the city?"
Now that I can agree with, and the nature of the area is exactly what I've been talking about.

Again (and this is the last time I'll say it, I promise), whatever you might make of the satellite images, anyone who lived in the neighborhoods around the area where Mic Mac was built will tell you that the nature of the area was not "suburban". They'd laugh at the notion. lt didn't have that feel at all; it felt as "urban" as downtown - which, again, was literally only five minutes away - and was an integral part of the city.

Anyway, I've annoyed enough people, which was not my objective. I was simply trying to explain what the place was/is like, as one who lived there. Now I'm shutting up on this point.
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  #2342  
Old Posted Oct 19, 2021, 11:27 PM
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ns_kid ns_kid is offline
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Originally Posted by OldDartmouthMark View Post
Absolutely I am! When you start arguing about silly things like this, it makes me wonder why that energy isn't put into something more useful.
Thanks, Mark. You've summed up my feelings about many of the discussions in this Halifax SSP over the past two or three years. With so much time wasted on nonsensical discussions such as this, along with pointless whining about bike lanes and personalities, is it any wonder most of the serious contributors with actual intelligence to share have largely disappeared?
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  #2343  
Old Posted Oct 19, 2021, 11:32 PM
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Haliguy Haliguy is offline
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[QUOTE=Saul Goode;9427954]By whose definition? I know the area intimately, and have known it intimately since well before the mall existed. Again, if you had told anyone who lived in the area at that time that they lived in a "suburb", they would've laughed in your face, and rightly so. And that was 50 years ago.



It's inconceivable that I could possibly care less what Wikipedia says, so...[



Ok bud it's urban if that makes you happy...geech! You are very triggered by this. Nobody can have opposing views with you I guess.

Last edited by Haliguy; Oct 19, 2021 at 11:43 PM.
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  #2344  
Old Posted Oct 19, 2021, 11:35 PM
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Haliguy Haliguy is offline
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Originally Posted by ns_kid View Post
Thanks, Mark. You've summed up my feelings about many of the discussions in this Halifax SSP over the past two or three years. With so much time wasted on nonsensical discussions such as this, along with pointless whining about bike lanes and personalities, is it any wonder most of the serious contributors with actual intelligence to share have largely disappeared?
You don't seem to have any intelligence to share other than attitude!
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  #2345  
Old Posted Oct 19, 2021, 11:50 PM
Saul Goode Saul Goode is offline
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Originally Posted by Haliguy View Post
Nobody can have opposing views with you I guess.
Of course you can. And I already said I was done and moved on, so relax.
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  #2346  
Old Posted Oct 20, 2021, 1:32 AM
OldDartmouthMark OldDartmouthMark is offline
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Originally Posted by Haliguy View Post
You don't seem to have any intelligence to share other than attitude!
I don't know what to say. Why are you being so aggressive and insulting?
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  #2347  
Old Posted Oct 20, 2021, 1:50 AM
OldDartmouthMark OldDartmouthMark is offline
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Originally Posted by Half-Axed View Post
Halifax overall has very few really "urban" feeling streetscapes. Downtown Halifax and Downtown Dartmouth, some bits of the north end, a few "main streets" here and there in specific old neighbourhoods.

Keep in mind this is a development forum, so discussing the nature of neighbourhoods in "urban areas" is hardly inane or silly. It's pretty key to what kind of place you want the city to develop into. Do you want more sprawling subdivisions that have no retail? Do you want more fine-grained mixed-commercial residential? Something in between? How do you balance walkability and drivability? Vibrancy and quiet enjoyment? It matters.
I think you summed it up with "urban feeling", which I'm sure you can see is very subjective. The reason I feel that this particular exchange has been inane and silly is that it's based on opinions, or grey area, where one poster has stated that it should be considered an urban area based on the location and history of the neighbourhood, and others have dug their heels in because it doesn't fit their definition of what should be considered urban. Then, when the poster did not conform to their opinions, the tone turned to condescension and became somewhat insulting.

IMHO the definition of what entails being 'urban' has changed quite a bit over the past couple of decades, and those of us who have been in the area might feel differently from the 'it's not urban if it's not like Manhattan' crowd. I added my opinion based on my history with the area, and nobody discussed that. In fact you only had issue with my qualifier of the discussion. So are we really discussing development and planning, or is it just a 'my way or the highway' type of forum? These have become the days of choosing sides and defending to the death, even when the prize being fought over is inconsequential, or in this case nonexistent.

Welcome, by the way, as I see your post count is at 2. Unless you've been lurking for quite some time, you might not know that these types of disagreements happen on this forum from time to time. We have several people here from varying backgrounds, and many with strong opinions... so heads occasionally butt, and sparks occasionally fly. Then they fizzle out. No harm no foul, and hopefully nobody wakes up in the morning thinking about it - because none of it is really that important in the grand scheme of things.

Have a good night.
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  #2348  
Old Posted Oct 20, 2021, 1:55 AM
OldDartmouthMark OldDartmouthMark is offline
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Originally Posted by ns_kid View Post
Thanks, Mark. You've summed up my feelings about many of the discussions in this Halifax SSP over the past two or three years. With so much time wasted on nonsensical discussions such as this, along with pointless whining about bike lanes and personalities, is it any wonder most of the serious contributors with actual intelligence to share have largely disappeared?
I was initially going to play it as you did, by ignoring it and waiting for it to fizzle out. Lord knows I've been involved in my share of conversations in the past that I wish I had just stayed out of in retrospect.

Anyhow, here we are. I hope you don't let this be a reason to avoid posting on the forum as I have always enjoyed your informative and well-thought-out writings. The forum is always a better place with the participation of posters like yourself.

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  #2349  
Old Posted Oct 20, 2021, 2:41 AM
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Haliguy Haliguy is offline
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Originally Posted by Saul Goode View Post
Of course you can. And I already said I was done and moved on, so relax.
You're the one keeping it going

Last edited by Haliguy; Oct 20, 2021 at 3:04 AM.
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  #2350  
Old Posted Oct 20, 2021, 2:43 AM
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Originally Posted by OldDartmouthMark View Post
I don't know what to say. Why are you being so aggressive and insulting?
I apologize, it was over the top.

Last edited by Haliguy; Oct 20, 2021 at 7:27 AM.
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  #2351  
Old Posted Oct 20, 2021, 7:56 AM
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Jonovision Jonovision is offline
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Thought I'd chime in just for fun.

While I agree they might both be located within the urban boundaries of Halifax and Dartmouth. The very nature of a mall like MMM and HSC are suburban. This type of development of completely interior shopping malls that turn inward and ignore their context and are surrounded by seas of surface parking lots are by definition suburban. They were developed in the 50s and 60s during the hollowing out of downtowns. Suburban culture is about driving and space for cars over space for people and both of these malls do exactly that. Yes, many can easily walk to them or even take transit from where they live within the urban boundaries. But the fact that to reach the shops a pedestrian must cross hostile car dominated landscapes makes these malls suburban in nature.

To sum up:
Development sits within boundaries of urban areas.
Development pattern is entirely suburban.
So everyone is right?
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  #2352  
Old Posted Oct 20, 2021, 12:35 PM
Half-Axed Half-Axed is offline
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.

Last edited by Half-Axed; Oct 20, 2021 at 2:21 PM. Reason: error
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  #2353  
Old Posted Oct 20, 2021, 12:35 PM
Half-Axed Half-Axed is offline
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Originally Posted by Jonovision View Post
Thought I'd chime in just for fun.

While I agree they might both be located within the urban boundaries of Halifax and Dartmouth. The very nature of a mall like MMM and HSC are suburban. This type of development of completely interior shopping malls that turn inward and ignore their context and are surrounded by seas of surface parking lots are by definition suburban. They were developed in the 50s and 60s during the hollowing out of downtowns. Suburban culture is about driving and space for cars over space for people and both of these malls do exactly that. Yes, many can easily walk to them or even take transit from where they live within the urban boundaries. But the fact that to reach the shops a pedestrian must cross hostile car dominated landscapes makes these malls suburban in nature.

To sum up:
Development sits within boundaries of urban areas.
Development pattern is entirely suburban.
So everyone is right?
Exactly. Pretty much what I said above.
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  #2354  
Old Posted Oct 20, 2021, 12:37 PM
Half-Axed Half-Axed is offline
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Originally Posted by ns_kid View Post
Thanks, Mark. You've summed up my feelings about many of the discussions in this Halifax SSP over the past two or three years. With so much time wasted on nonsensical discussions such as this, along with pointless whining about bike lanes and personalities, is it any wonder most of the serious contributors with actual intelligence to share have largely disappeared?
Don't say "b@ke l@nes" - it's like a bat signal for the coal-roller set.
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  #2355  
Old Posted Oct 20, 2021, 1:06 PM
GTG_78 GTG_78 is offline
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Originally Posted by Saul Goode View Post
Good grief. The 111 had been open for more than a decade when MMM opened. For that matter, the 118 was already three years old at that point.
I did not say "opened", I said "completed." Which was the case.
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  #2356  
Old Posted Oct 20, 2021, 1:14 PM
Saul Goode Saul Goode is offline
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Originally Posted by GTG_78 View Post
I did not say "opened", I said "completed." Which was the case.
Sorry - you're quite right. My error.

My concern was the impression that the section of the 111 alongside MMM hadn't existed before, while in fact it was in place before the mall was built. I see now that that wasn't what you were saying.
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  #2357  
Old Posted Oct 20, 2021, 1:52 PM
Half-Axed Half-Axed is offline
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Thanks for the warm welcome. Yes I'm a long time lurker and yes I find this aspect of this forum very off-putting.

I agree the urban / suburban thing is somewhat subjective - there's a grey area for sure. But I really don't think a subdivision style residential-only area with a big mall in the middle is in that grey area.

Quote:
Originally Posted by OldDartmouthMark View Post
Then, when the poster did not conform to their opinions, the tone turned to condescension and became somewhat insulting.
I saw that happen on two sides and perhaps not in the same order you did. I thought the insults were responding to a rather snide and demeaning tone, not to a refusal to conform. Also subjective, apparently.

Similarly, on the "my way or the highway" question, that also works both ways. There is enough stridently anti-urbanist, anti-bike, anti-"progressive" rhetoric here, without an inch of give, to fill an oil executive's manifesto.

Anyway, I thought the mod had created a separate "development issues" thread to try to sandbox this stuff. What happened to that?

Last edited by Half-Axed; Oct 20, 2021 at 2:55 PM.
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  #2358  
Old Posted Oct 20, 2021, 3:03 PM
Saul Goode Saul Goode is offline
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Originally Posted by Half-Axed View Post
I agree the urban / suburban thing is somewhat subjective - there's a grey area for sure. But I really don't think a subdivision style residential-only area with a big mall in the middle is in that grey area.
I'll toss this in as my final word on the matter, for whatever anyone thinks it's worth (quite possibly nothing).

I think what got a lot of people's shorts in a knot was that I see that question (urban vs. suburban) as a clear matter of fact, while others see it as a matter of opinion. That's a distinction I have to draw every day in other things I do. And as we often hear, we're all entitled to our opinions, but not to our own facts. Anyway, I dug in my heels a bit not to be argumentative but simply because I was trying to defend what I saw as fact against a bunch of contrary opinion.

In this particular case I happened to have a long and close familiarity with the area, which, admittedly, made it a little personal and made me a little too strident. I'm not always that way, and I never intend to offend. But I do love a good argument, and I won't shy away from criticizing statements, as opposed to criticizing the people making them.

Anyway, welcome. I hope you'll stay.
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  #2359  
Old Posted Oct 20, 2021, 3:20 PM
Half-Axed Half-Axed is offline
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Originally Posted by Saul Goode View Post
I'll toss this in as my final word on the matter, for whatever anyone thinks it's worth (quite possibly nothing).

I think what got a lot of people's shorts in a knot was that I see that question (urban vs. suburban) as a clear matter of fact, while others see it as a matter of opinion. That's a distinction I have to draw every day in other things I do. And as we often hear, we're all entitled to our opinions, but not to our own facts. Anyway, I dug in my heels a bit not to be argumentative but simply because I was trying to defend what I saw as fact against a bunch of contrary opinion.

In this particular case I happened to have a long and close familiarity with the area, which, admittedly, made it a little personal and made me a little too strident. I'm not always that way, and I never intend to offend. But I do love a good argument, and I won't shy away from criticizing statements, as opposed to criticizing the people making them.

Anyway, welcome. I hope you'll stay.
‘t’saul good. And thanks!
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  #2360  
Old Posted Oct 20, 2021, 4:32 PM
mattyt mattyt is offline
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Originally Posted by OldDartmouthMark View Post
I think you summed it up with "urban feeling", which I'm sure you can see is very subjective.
It's definitely subjective. For my 2 cents Mic Mac mall is within the centre plan area which encompasses only about 25% of Halifax's population. If you want to say it's suburban then basically everything off the peninsula is surburban. I disagree but I see the point. It's also got the apartment towers on Horizon court right next to it (17 storeys I think) and another 15 storey building under construction by Armour along with the 10+ storey condo towers on Banook by the mall and various other apartments of various heights in the vicinity which doesn't seem particularly suburban to me but can agree to disagree.

Its maybe in the grey zone for now or can say its transitioning, I think in 5-10 years there will be another few apartments up and will be no doubt it's not suburban.
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