Philadelphia Transportation Thread

[JohnIII]

The discussion on a Roosevelt Subway/Elevated Line can be done in a cost effective manner; largely because Philadelphia takes so long to build things that in many case projects are well thought out. A compromise that is cost effective between a subway and Elevated Line can be reached.

There was a Subway Tunnel that was constructed from the Broad Street Line up the Roosevelt Boulevard up to Adams Avenue in the 1960s and an Adams Avenue Station was built. The Adams Avenue Subway Station was located near the old Sear Complex. Friends, there are some who have suggested that the implosion of the Old Sear Complex destroyed the Adams Avenue Station however the Subway Station was not directly under the complex and also that Subway Tunnel still exists so that even if the Adams Avenue Station was destroyed the entire tunnel from Broad Street to the Station was not; but the tunnel should be intact for no construction affected the tunnel itself and the only thing that needs to be done is for SEPTA to send crews into the Broad Street Tunnel and to travel up the Roosevelt Subway Tunnel as far as thy can go.

If the Roosevelt Subway Tunnel is intact then it is cost effective to lay Subway tracks in that tunnel to Adams Avenue and make the rest of the Subway Line Elevated from Adams Avenue to Neshaminy. If my theory is correct about the condition of the Roosevelt Subway Tunnel then 20% of the cost is erased for a Roosevelt Subway right away because the tunnel is already dug and all that needs to be done is the laying of tracks and the construction of an Elevated Platform for the tracks; this will defray the cost of a new tunnel or new elevated lines and use the existing structure as well as saving money and cutting down on the target date.

Another option is to add an Elevated Line from Bridge and Pratt to travel north on Bustleton Avenue and ride north on the median up the Roosevelt Boulevard; it would be cheaper than building a subway tunnel.

[thoughtcriminal]

Originally Posted by JohnIII

There was a Subway Tunnel that was constructed from the Broad Street Line up the Roosevelt Boulevard up to Adams Avenue in the 1960s and an Adams Avenue Station was built. The Adams Avenue Subway Station was located near the old Sear Complex. Friends, there are some who have suggested that the implosion of the Old Sear Complex destroyed the Adams Avenue Station however the Subway Station was not directly under the complex and also that Subway Tunnel still exists so that even if the Adams Avenue Station was destroyed the entire tunnel from Broad Street to the Station was not; but the tunnel should be intact for no construction affected the tunnel itself and the only thing that needs to be done is for SEPTA to send crews into the Broad Street Tunnel and to travel up the Roosevelt Subway Tunnel as far as thy can go.

The subway station at the old Sears building is well-known. A good friend of mine's father was a structural engineer on the project, and he took my friend and me down there once when we were kids.
But I have never heard that there had been a tunnel constructed between Erie Ave and Adams Ave. any photos or other evidence? I had always heard that the station was built in anticipation of a tunnel, but that it was never built.

[TonyTone]

McGrath would know or know someone who would know, with all the abandon tunnels in CC I wouldn't be surprised if we had a tunnel in some parts. It's possible we just need the people to push it,

I read somewhere that one idea was to depress the middle lanes and have the freeway on the outer depress lanes while the Train is in the middle, so it would be open air stations, Think Spring Garden Station & 95 depressed into the ground instead of Above.



https://usa.streetsblog.org/2022/08/...oving-already/

If we could do these in Phases like the picture in the article has, we can really get this, done and spread the cost out over time.

[Randomguy34]

Recreating the mistakes of Chicago's Dan Ryan branch or Forest Park branch is a very bad idea. Having the non-subway portions be elevated would be significantly better than having rail in a depressed median

[TonyTone]

Originally Posted by Randomguy34

Recreating the mistakes of Chicago's Dan Ryan branch or Forest Park branch is a very bad idea. Having the non-subway portions be elevated would be significantly better than having rail in a depressed median

What were some of the ills that came with the depressed line?

[Busy Bee]

A couple things to point out... Not every center running rapid transit lines have to be as hostle and unpleasant as the Chicago expressway lines. See Amsterdam for instance. In the case of Roosevelt Blvd if constructed as a depressed trench, there is no reason other than lack of consideration or imagination, that the trackway could not have attractive elements like louvered walls ( or in some sections completely enclosed) separating it from salt,grime and other elements from the vehicle lanes. These walls could have ivy or other plantings growing on them in the warmer months. The stations themselves could be in fully protected boxes with the passenger knowledge the station is sandwiched between "highway" lanes imperceivable. So much of this stuff has design solutions.


Add me to the camp that would want to see a Roosevelt Blvd line built as a subway or trench.or combination of the two. Not a fan at all of massive utilitarian viaducts. That sounds horrible imo. Elevated rail has its place, but in most cases sub-surface is the ideal solution especially in aesthetically sensitive settings.

[thoughtcriminal]

Originally Posted by TonyTone

I read somewhere that one idea was to depress the middle lanes and have the freeway on the outer depress lanes while the Train is in the middle, so it would be open air stations, Think Spring Garden Station & 95 depressed into the ground instead of Above.



https://usa.streetsblog.org/2022/08/...oving-already/


If we could do these in Phases like the picture in the article has, we can really get this, done and spread the cost out over time.

I don't see how depressing the middle lanes would realize any savings over constructing a subway tunnel. There is at least as much excavation and construction, if not more, to depress that much roadway (effectively 8 lanes) below the current grade level vs cut and cover of 2 lanes for the tunnel, and would be way more disruptive in the process.

[TonyTone]

God Almighty this is one of the plans SEPTA was or is pushing for the BLVD

https://www.dvrpc.org/reports/13072.pdf

[thoughtcriminal]

Buh-Bye to the Key Card
https://www.inquirer.com/transportat...-20220818.html

[steve_phl]

Originally Posted by thoughtcriminal

Buh-Bye to the Key Card
https://www.inquirer.com/transportat...-20220818.html

Unfortunately not quite. I was a member of the first pilot group and it just gave you the ability to purchase individual tickets that need to be activated in the buggy app to display a barcode that bus readers had difficulty reading. Carrying my Key Card and tapping to pay from an auto-replenishing wallet is much more convenient to me. So when they compare the system to NYC without further explanation, the article is pretty misleading.

What they really need to do (and are in the process of doing with the eventual Key 2.0 program) is implementing an open-loop payment system (and closed-loop within Apple and Google wallets) but unfortunately that is years away.

[Qubert]

Depressing Roosevelt Blvd in a trench will do nothing to improve the overall ashtetic or walkability of the area. Secondly, I would find better utility in building two light rail lines: One straight up the Blvd to Neshaminy Mall and the second along Frankford Ave then Academy Road to Philadelphia Mills.

[summersm343]

SEPTA may add bus service to Navy Yard to ease traffic jams

Read more here:
https://www.inquirer.com/news/septa-...-20220820.html

[thoughtcriminal]

Originally Posted by summersm343

SEPTA may add bus service to Navy Yard to ease traffic jams

Read more here:
https://www.inquirer.com/news/septa-...-20220820.html

Buses are cheap and easy, but should only be a stopgap temporary measure here. they need to extend the BSL into the Navy Yard. Until they do that, buses will do the job to an extent, but will probably only highlight the need for the subway.

[summersm343]

Originally Posted by thoughtcriminal

Buses are cheap and easy, but should only be a stopgap temporary measure here. they need to extend the BSL into the Navy Yard. Until they do that, buses will do the job to an extent, but will probably only highlight the need for the subway.

Article says it's a stopgap and eventually the plan is to expand the BSL

[summersm343]

SEPTA Opens Regional Rail Extension To Wawa In Middletown Township

Read/view more here:
https://phillyyimby.com/2022/08/sept...-township.html

[thoughtcriminal]

Originally Posted by summersm343

Article says it's a stopgap and eventually the plan is to expand the BSL

not really. it says that septa "hasn't ruled out the possibility of a new subway station", but does not say that they definitively plan to extend the subway. in fact it says that the current initiative is to focus on faster turnaround options. and then it goes on with a whole section entitled "Why Buses are the Best Option."
so it does not sound as though they want buses to be a stopgap.

[TonyTone]

Originally Posted by thoughtcriminal

not really. it says that septa "hasn't ruled out the possibility of a new subway station", but does not say that they definitively plan to extend the subway. in fact it says that the current initiative is to focus on faster turnaround options. and then it goes on with a whole section entitled "Why Buses are the Best Option."
so it does not sound as though they want buses to be a stopgap.

Public transportation in the US makes me laugh.

It's all about doing the cheapest option possible, because anything worth putting effort into gets abused and misused due to the toxic culture of just letting things go until they are so bad you gotta revamp and fix everything.

If you put effort into something, it will show.

[TonyTone]

Philadelphians push for Roosevelt Boulevard subway project revival





https://www.phillytrib.com/news/loca...265a8d21a.html

[TonyTone]

SEPTA Forward: Bus Revolution

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S7CKeHxHm7c

Progress on Bus revolution from Septa.

[TempleGuy1000]

Originally Posted by TonyTone

SEPTA Forward: Bus Revolution

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S7CKeHxHm7c

Progress on Bus revolution from Septa.

You can embed youtube videos directly on this site.

If you look at the URL closely at the end and copy "S7CKeHxHm7c" and put it between [youtube] tags it will pop up

• Video Link


Here is also a related article on the topic from the TransitCenter:
A Transit Revolution in Philadelphia?