The future: enclavism or the melting pot?

[SFBruin]

For the record: Conservatives don't hate racial diversity. We hate getting a smaller share of the pie each year.

When we blame their struggles on newcomers, we are often not acting racist, but nativist.

[SFBruin]

I think the post got deleted, but someone pointed out that many "white" people feel that they have a "god-given" right to live in the US.

I think that this is true.

But, I'll take it in a different direction.

I, a "European American", don't feel like I have a right to live in the US. I feel like I have a right to live somewhere. If someone wants to pay for my plane ticket to Ireland (where 23andme says my ancestry is), or some other country that is willing to take me, then I will happily oblige. :-)

[pdxtex]

People by in large self segregate. The melting pot notion is noble in that it means all are welcome, but when it comes to neighborhoods, people choose to live by those who are like themselves.

[RST500]

Originally Posted by SFBruin

The Bay Area has greater geographic fragmentation, sure. LA is basically one giant plain.

That said, I feel like the Bay Area has a shared cultural identity more so than LA does. I don't feel like people who live in Boyle Heights, for example, spend that much time in West LA, and vice versa. When I visited a friend's family in OC once, they insisted that Laguna Nigel was NOT LA, despite being maybe 30 miles away.

I feel like somebody from Palo Alto would never complain if someone from out of town referred to them as living in San Francisco.

Idk, just my two cents. The Bay Area is geographically divided, but culturally seems to get along.

Economics factor in too. My impression is that LA's ethnic enclaves are closer to the vision described in the article in that various ethnic enclaves revolve around small to medium size businesses that serve their communities while many Bay Area cities are company towns, that despite being diverse, have a more monolithic corporate culture.

[RST500]

Originally Posted by pdxtex

People by in large self segregate. The melting pot notion is noble in that it means all are welcome, but when it comes to neighborhoods, people choose to live by those who are like themselves.

True, the point that the article makes is that both liberals and conservatives want to resist these trends but in different ways.

"In response to greater demographic fragmentation, the woke left has pushed for policies geared towards racial equity such as a UC Berkeley study offering solutions to diversify Bay Area neighborhoods. The only counter position is from conservatives, who are marginal in California, with calls for assimilation like the English Only Movement. Both the equity agenda of woke liberalism and conservative’s assimilationist model would not work in a place as immensely diverse as California."

https://robertstark.substack.com/p/c...-pan-enclavism

[SFBruin]

Originally Posted by RST500

Economics factor in too. My impression is that LA's ethnic enclaves are closer to the vision described in the article in that various ethnic enclaves revolve around small to medium size businesses that serve their communities while many Bay Area cities are company towns, that despite being diverse, have a more monolithic corporate culture.

Yeah, that's possible.

Certainly there is more poverty in LA, which tends to breed it's own type of enclavism.

[Capsicum]

Originally Posted by RST500

True, the point that the article makes is that both liberals and conservatives want to resist these trends but in different ways.

"In response to greater demographic fragmentation, the woke left has pushed for policies geared towards racial equity such as a UC Berkeley study offering solutions to diversify Bay Area neighborhoods. The only counter position is from conservatives, who are marginal in California, with calls for assimilation like the English Only Movement. Both the equity agenda of woke liberalism and conservative’s assimilationist model would not work in a place as immensely diverse as California."

https://robertstark.substack.com/p/c...-pan-enclavism

Reading this again, I'm still confused about liberal and conservative framings.

These demographic maps of Los Angeles and the Bay Area portray an image that is closer to a mosaic or an assortment of de-facto micro-nations rather than the liberal ideal of the melting pot, which is generally the case in multi-ethnic nations.

So is assimilation or "the melting pot" supposed to be "liberal" or "conservative" by this author's reckoning? It seems both ideas appear.

On the one hand the author uses terms like "conservative’s assimilationist model" to contrast against "woke liberalism", but then the "liberal ideal of the melting pot" also appears as a phrase in the article.

I think there can be supposedly "liberal" and "conservative" framings of integration vs. segregation (yes, I know that's a loaded term but here in the broader sense). Either narrative has been trotted out at various times and places and over the generations, in either genuine or self serving ways.

E.g. "Liberal" spin on integration.
"Diverse people should come together and intermingle, not live apart. People should befriend and interact with, and end up having spouses, co-workers, siblings of all races -- it makes America great"

"Liberal" spin on segregation.
"Different enclaves should keep their uniqueness. Assimilation, gentrification or dilution of the different enclaves is bad so we must protect their distinctiveness."

"Conservative" spin on integration.
"People should assimilate to one American culture -- speak English, love baseball and apple pie. I don't care what you look like or who your ancestors are, as long as you love America, and observe (insert standard "ideal" of American culture), then "welcome, neighbor!"."

"Conservative" spin on segregation.
"It's natural for people to stick with their own kind, their own traditions. I don't have anything against (insert other group of people) but I wouldn't want them as my neighbor, they're just too different. It's my choice who I associate with. Don't force it on me."

[RST500]

My assessment of the article is that the author rejects both the "Liberal" spin on integration and the "Conservative" spin on integration while seeking to reconcile the "Liberal" spin on segregation with the "Conservative" spin on segregation which might happen long term but short term those groups are totally polarized.

This previous article, "New Pluralist Vision for California" introduces that frame of thought, a sort of alternative version of multi-culturalism.

"While there are issues that impact all Californians, such as jobs and housing, this new pluralist vision must take into account the needs of all groups without passing moral value judgments upon one group over another. For starters encouraging ethnic and cultural based student unions on high school and college campuses for all without regressive double standards.

There needs to be platinum plans for all, including African Americans, Asian Americans, Native Americans, European Americans, and Latinos, with specialized plans tailored to each group’s specific needs. The liberal establishment neglects the needs of minorities beyond woke symbolism and securing votes, by lumping in together everyone who is non-White into a broader People of Color category they ignore the unique needs of particular groups."

https://robertstark.substack.com/p/n...for-california

[eschaton]

How many of the "Asian" enclaves in the Bay Area are actually a particular Asian ethnicity?

I mean, I'm pretty sure that SF's Asian areas are mostly Chinese, but I was under the impression that Chinese and Indian people lived in the same areas of Silicon Valley - which would make them not ethnic enclaves - just areas without a lot of white people.

[dimondpark]

I wish I could remember where I got this from...anyhow this just might give us an idea of how many people live in 'integrated, melting pot' areas by metro.

[jd3189]

Originally Posted by SFBruin

For the record: Conservatives don't hate racial diversity. We hate getting a smaller share of the pie each year.

When we blame their struggles on newcomers, we are often not acting racist, but nativist.

Understandable but still very pointless. As this country becomes more minority-majority, of course the pie will be more equally distributed, with the non-Hispanic white portion being reduced as a result.

And even then, as others have pointed out, not much will change in the mainstream culture. Millennial blacks, Asians, Hispanics, etc are roughly the same as millennial whites. After a few generations within the US, everyone shares into the American vision.

[iheartthed]

Originally Posted by dimondpark

I wish I could remember where I got this from...anyhow this just might give us an idea of how many people live in 'integrated, melting pot' areas by metro.

This illustrates something that I mentioned on one of the many California threads. The economics of expensive cities encourages mixed class neighborhoods. All of the cities on the bottom of this list are relatively inexpensive.

[mrnyc]

the logical answer to the thread question is yes.

read j.g. ballard's novel super-cannes especially for a prime fictional enclavism example.

[RST500]

Originally Posted by eschaton

How many of the "Asian" enclaves in the Bay Area are actually a particular Asian ethnicity?

I mean, I'm pretty sure that SF's Asian areas are mostly Chinese, but I was under the impression that Chinese and Indian people lived in the same areas of Silicon Valley - which would make them not ethnic enclaves - just areas without a lot of white people.

There is a combination of both: Pan-Asian enclaves and more specific national enclaves.

[RST500]

Originally Posted by mrnyc

the logical answer to the thread question is yes.

read j.g. ballard's novel super-cannes especially for a prime fictional enclavism example.

Also the Sci-Fi novel The Diamond Age.

"In the extremely globalized future depicted in the novel, these cultural divisions have largely supplanted the system of nation-states that divides the world today. Cities appear divided into sovereign enclaves affiliated or belonging to different phyles within a single metropolis. Most phyles depicted in the novel have a global scope of sovereignty, and maintain segregated enclaves in or near many cities throughout the world"

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Diamond_Age

[RST500]

Originally Posted by eschaton

How many of the "Asian" enclaves in the Bay Area are actually a particular Asian ethnicity?

I mean, I'm pretty sure that SF's Asian areas are mostly Chinese, but I was under the impression that Chinese and Indian people lived in the same areas of Silicon Valley - which would make them not ethnic enclaves - just areas without a lot of white people.

Bay Area segregation map shows most segregated by race:

https://belonging.berkeley.edu/bay-segregation-map

The Sunset District in SF is primarily Chinese, Daly City is mixed of Chinese and Filipino, Fremont is mixed of Indian, Chinese, and Afghan, and Milpitas is mixed of Indian and Chinese. Further on among Indians there are more specific enclaves just as Punjabi.

[RST500]

Originally Posted by SFBruin

Yeah, that's possible.

Certainly there is more poverty in LA, which tends to breed it's own type of enclavism.

This also applies to more affluent enclaves such as Tehrangeles and Monterrey Park.

LA neighborhoods ranked by segregation:

https://maps.latimes.com/neighborhoo...hborhood/list/

Most diverse are middle income while wealthiest and poorest are the least diverse.


"The LA Times has a diversity index for Los Angeles neighborhoods and, as with the Bay Area’s segregation map, we can see that the most diverse areas are, generally, either middle-income areas with a high concentration of new apartment construction or areas that are undergoing a transformation such as gentrification, or attracting a new demographic."

https://robertstark.substack.com/p/c...-pan-enclavism

[RST500]

A Post-American 4th of July in the Bay Area:

https://robertstark.substack.com/p/a...of-july-in-the

"We are seeing this ethnogenesis in the managerial class and at elite universities among Whites and Asians as well as more recent affirmative action beneficiaries. This trend was most noticeable in Palo Alto where there is a diversity among cosmopolitan tech elites that is different than ethnoburbs that serve one particular group. In the Silicon Valley there are company towns where the corporate culture, rather than one ethnic group, creates the enclave. I predict, however, greater fragmentation of the elites into more ethnic and regional based elites due to the failure of centralization, elite overproduction, and divisive racial policies.

You could certainly make the case that the Bay Area is one the first post-American regions in the United States and there is a sense that we are entering a Post-American era with the degree of visible patriotism and other signifiers of community identity varying from city to city. For instance in South San Francisco, which is largely middle-class and extremely diverse with the largest ancestry groups being Mexican and Filipino I saw more American flags than in the more economically unequal San Francisco and in very affluent Palo Alto where rainbow flags and BLM signs are preferred. My observation from a 4th of July gathering at a Church in South SF was that it was very diverse but the kind of high trust, close knit community one would expect to find in the Midwest. Religion plays a huge role in building social capital.

An area that stands out in feeling the most traditionally American is Danville whose downtown was deserted on 4th of July, a sign of greater patriotism. Danville is fairly wealthy and White but also more culturally insular from San Francisco and the Silicon Valley. Danville is part of the broader Central Contra Costa County region which includes Walnut Creek and Lamorinda and is one of the most idyllic suburban regions in California, far removed from the problems of urban decay, with low crime and good schools. This area is also more politically moderate and family oriented than the other well-off White demographic strongholds such as Marin and the Peninsula. In my article on pan-enclavism I make the case that these majority White suburbs in minority White urban metros are beginning to function as ethnoburbs in their own right."

[Crawford]

I don't know who Robert Stark is, but he sounds like douche, trying to speak MAGA in psuedo-academic terms.

"Visible patriotism" isn't hanging a giant flag from your pickup. That's just dumb.

[RST500]

How is pan-enclavism MAGA?

MAGA generally dislikes diversity.