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  #2061  
Old Posted Jan 12, 2017, 11:46 PM
portapetey portapetey is offline
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Originally Posted by Drybrain View Post
Bier Markt is kind of lame, IMO, (after-work beer joints for finance-industry guys) but it's better than, say, Earl's or something, and will reinforce the strip's nightlife character rather than diminish it.

I've long thought that as long as the street-facing elements of the Nova Centre are decent, and as long as it doesn't bring in a bunch of garbage national chain restaurants, Argyle is simply going to go more upscale.

I think this is pretty obviously what's happening, as venues like the Seahorse and the Shoe Shop move to Gottingen, and places like Lot Six (And Bier Markt, I guess) open on Argyle. The street's identity as a bar-and-resto strip is well established, but I think the dated, '90s campus-bar vibe of the street will turn over to something a bit more grown-up. This will be lamented as the "death" of Argyle by some, but it's a normal evolution. Is is really a tragedy if we lose generic drinking holes like the Toothy Moose or the Argyle Bar and Grill?

The situation with the Carleton is unfortunate, as I think it's exactly the kind of business that could thrive on the kind of street that I think Argyle will become, but there are other factors there related to management, the live-music scene, etc.
Agreed.

I do wish we'd avoid national chains down there altogether, but such is modern North Generica © 2017 Portapetey
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  #2062  
Old Posted Jan 13, 2017, 11:08 PM
OldDartmouthMark OldDartmouthMark is offline
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Originally Posted by Drybrain View Post
Bier Markt is kind of lame, IMO, (after-work beer joints for finance-industry guys) but it's better than, say, Earl's or something, and will reinforce the strip's nightlife character rather than diminish it.

I've long thought that as long as the street-facing elements of the Nova Centre are decent, and as long as it doesn't bring in a bunch of garbage national chain restaurants, Argyle is simply going to go more upscale.

I think this is pretty obviously what's happening, as venues like the Seahorse and the Shoe Shop move to Gottingen, and places like Lot Six (And Bier Markt, I guess) open on Argyle. The street's identity as a bar-and-resto strip is well established, but I think the dated, '90s campus-bar vibe of the street will turn over to something a bit more grown-up. This will be lamented as the "death" of Argyle by some, but it's a normal evolution. Is is really a tragedy if we lose generic drinking holes like the Toothy Moose or the Argyle Bar and Grill?

The situation with the Carleton is unfortunate, as I think it's exactly the kind of business that could thrive on the kind of street that I think Argyle will become, but there are other factors there related to management, the live-music scene, etc.
The Shoe Shop is moving? The building is what makes that venue special. Wouldn't have the same draw, IMHO, in a more generic location.

It wouldn't bother me to see places like the liquor dome and the toothy moose go, but that street really needs to maintain some of its eclectic places to remain interesting. Moving upscale could potentially take a good portion of the soul from the place, and realistically, I'm still not convinced that a completely upscale strip would be sustainable in Halifax, at least in the near future.

The Carleton is a loss on many levels. Mike Campbell has the ability to attract many acts that would likely fill a larger venue, in another place and time. It dismays me greatly when I witness the public's apparent lack of interest in attending quality music events in Halifax. It appears that people would rather sit at home with their faces stuck in their phones or computers than to actually get out and experience it first hand. The ones that do go out seem to want the band to be background music so that they can hear themselves talk over everything and everybody else. Go to the Lower Deck and see what I mean. I must be getting old, but it disappoints me that a special place like The Carleton can disappear and nary a person bats an eye...

Personally, I'm still not convinced that the NC is greatest thing since sliced bread, but I'm glad that you all are enjoying it.
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  #2063  
Old Posted Jan 14, 2017, 6:26 PM
Drybrain Drybrain is offline
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Originally Posted by OldDartmouthMark View Post
The Shoe Shop is moving? The building is what makes that venue special. Wouldn't have the same draw, IMHO, in a more generic location.

It wouldn't bother me to see places like the liquor dome and the toothy moose go, but that street really needs to maintain some of its eclectic places to remain interesting. Moving upscale could potentially take a good portion of the soul from the place, and realistically, I'm still not convinced that a completely upscale strip would be sustainable in Halifax, at least in the near future.

The Carleton is a loss on many levels. Mike Campbell has the ability to attract many acts that would likely fill a larger venue, in another place and time. It dismays me greatly when I witness the public's apparent lack of interest in attending quality music events in Halifax. It appears that people would rather sit at home with their faces stuck in their phones or computers than to actually get out and experience it first hand. The ones that do go out seem to want the band to be background music so that they can hear themselves talk over everything and everybody else. Go to the Lower Deck and see what I mean. I must be getting old, but it disappoints me that a special place like The Carleton can disappear and nary a person bats an eye...

Personally, I'm still not convinced that the NC is greatest thing since sliced bread, but I'm glad that you all are enjoying it.
You know what? I messed up; it's the Foggy Goggle going to Gottingen, not the Shoe Shop. Either way though, is it weird that I don't particularly think the Shoe Shop is so great? The building is wonderfully eclectic, but the bar feels of a piece with the general late-90s/early 2000s vibe of the whole strip. A lot of mediocre food and drink options that feel really dated. Maybe it's because I've only been here a few years, or that I never went to university here, but I never go there, and don't have much in the way of memories associated with the strip. There's vastly better food and drink to be had on Barrington at Stillwell or Highwayman or Obladee or any number of other places, and they have more personality too, IMO.

I do empathize with what you mean about soul though. e.g.: the new Tom's is fine, but it's got nothing on the old one. The electicism of the old Maritime Life building really helped to make that place special.

And The Carleton IS special too, and its closure is really unfortunate. It seems to be part of a national cycle, too.

For what it's worth, I'm not a Nove Centre booster. The economics are bad and the architecture is merely okay. But I don't think it's a small-business destroying spaceship that's going to crush the life out of downtown either. Nor is it the only thing changing the character of the Argyle strip--the businesses there need a refresh, and that's been slowly happening with the likes of Lot Six and the trickle-over effect of the new places opening on Barrington.
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  #2064  
Old Posted Jan 16, 2017, 2:51 AM
OldDartmouthMark OldDartmouthMark is offline
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Originally Posted by Drybrain View Post
You know what? I messed up; it's the Foggy Goggle going to Gottingen, not the Shoe Shop. Either way though, is it weird that I don't particularly think the Shoe Shop is so great? The building is wonderfully eclectic, but the bar feels of a piece with the general late-90s/early 2000s vibe of the whole strip. A lot of mediocre food and drink options that feel really dated. Maybe it's because I've only been here a few years, or that I never went to university here, but I never go there, and don't have much in the way of memories associated with the strip. There's vastly better food and drink to be had on Barrington at Stillwell or Highwayman or Obladee or any number of other places, and they have more personality too, IMO.

I do empathize with what you mean about soul though. e.g.: the new Tom's is fine, but it's got nothing on the old one. The electicism of the old Maritime Life building really helped to make that place special.

And The Carleton IS special too, and its closure is really unfortunate. It seems to be part of a national cycle, too.

For what it's worth, I'm not a Nove Centre booster. The economics are bad and the architecture is merely okay. But I don't think it's a small-business destroying spaceship that's going to crush the life out of downtown either. Nor is it the only thing changing the character of the Argyle strip--the businesses there need a refresh, and that's been slowly happening with the likes of Lot Six and the trickle-over effect of the new places opening on Barrington.
I figured you must have meant the Foggy Goggle, as I hadn't heard that the Shoe Shop was moving. I don't think it's weird to think that the Shoe Shop isn't that great, as I was indirectly saying so when I said that the building is what makes it special. If you take away the atmosphere and put the same menu, etc., in a more generic location then there's not enough left to draw people in, IMHO. However, there's no denying that it has a really unique atmosphere that lends its eclecticism to help make Argyle a neat place to be.

Put in a bunch of generic higher-end joints, and I'm not so sure I'd be inclined to go there so much. But that's just me, and I'm obviously not the target market for such places. I do like places such as Stillwell, Obladee, Stubborn Goat, etc., but I will really miss having no place to witness live music in an atmosphere such as The Carleton. But I've said enough about that already.

FWIW, the Nova Centre does make the sidewalk patios much less enjoyable but I suppose no less so than the old Herald building did. I think the problem that the businesses had with it was the effects of a large construction project happening next door as opposed to the effects of the NC being there in a finished state. In fact, I'm sure I heard Mike say that he hoped he could hold on long enough for the NC to be finished so that his business could reap the spin-off benefits from the anticipated crowds of people it will draw. Of course there's no hope of that now that its opening has been delayed for several months...
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  #2065  
Old Posted Jan 17, 2017, 3:05 PM
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  #2066  
Old Posted Jan 17, 2017, 3:43 PM
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Interesting quote "Ivanhoé Cambridge’s Mic Mac Mall in Dartmouth is undergoing renovations and upgrades."

I wonder what's in the works with the Target space and if they have plans for the food court either moving or expanding.
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  #2067  
Old Posted Jan 17, 2017, 3:51 PM
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Very interesting. I wonder if Microsoft is planning on opening a store in the HSC.
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  #2068  
Old Posted Jan 17, 2017, 6:10 PM
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Originally Posted by Drybrain View Post
Bier Markt is kind of lame, IMO, (after-work beer joints for finance-industry guys) but it's better than, say, Earl's or something, and will reinforce the strip's nightlife character rather than diminish it.
I am not a big fan of the chains either but my wider point is that this is an indicator of success. Argyle going upscale is a sign of success too, even though some people might have preferred the way it was before. As you've pointed out, a lot of these businesses are moving to Gottingen anyway so Halifax will get the best of both worlds.

I read a lot of negativity about Halifax that is based on personal preference rather than objective measures. For example, there were editorials about Spring Garden Road's decline intermixed with articles about how the price per square foot for leasing retail space on the street is going up and is one of the highest in Canada. If that is the case, somebody likes Spring Garden Road. It's just not the hipsters at the Coast or the owners of the businesses that are struggling in the more competitive landscape that has been developing downtown. It's good to see this subjective sentiment for what it is rather than take it as a sign that the city is objectively going downhill.

I think the state of downtown and particularly Barrington and Gottingen around 1985-2015 was awful and happened because the city declined so much over the years as a place to live and shop. It is not a story about independents battling chains. Halifax's main streets should attract major retailers and chains will be a part of that. The smaller independent places should be on other commercial streets which up until recently were full of vacant storefronts. This was how it worked in Halifax back in 1960 and it's how it continued to work in larger and more vibrant cities.
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  #2069  
Old Posted Jan 17, 2017, 10:05 PM
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Originally Posted by Drybrain View Post
Bier Markt is kind of lame, IMO, (after-work beer joints for finance-industry guys) but it's better than, say, Earl's or something, and will reinforce the strip's nightlife character rather than diminish it.

What's wrong with Earl's? They're very popular everywhere I've seen them.
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  #2070  
Old Posted Jan 17, 2017, 10:44 PM
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What's wrong with Earl's? They're very popular everywhere I've seen them.
I'd gladly have an Earl's over say Moxie's. The food is great and it has a nice atmosphere. Earl's and CRAFT are the two places I've been hoping for opening in town from my time in Calgary.
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  #2071  
Old Posted Jan 17, 2017, 11:59 PM
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There's nothing especially wrong with Earl's or any of those places, they're just representative of that "casual fine-dining" asthetic that seems to be an especially big deal in western Canada. See also, Moxie's, White Spot, Brewster's (not the one in Bedford, but the pub/brewery chain in Alberta).

It's a bit middle-of-the-road and characterless, as if the generic quality of fast-food chains moved up a few culinary plateaus. It's not bad, but it is boring and it doesn't add anything to the dining scene. Being able to eat the same chicken quesadilla you can get in Vancouver or Edmonton doesn't strike me as a notch in our belt.

I'd much rather see one great independent restaurant open downtown (like Highwayman, last year) than any of those places.

The Stubborn Goat is basically an Earl's anyway, except with better beer selection.
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  #2072  
Old Posted Jan 18, 2017, 12:21 AM
OldDartmouthMark OldDartmouthMark is offline
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Originally Posted by Drybrain View Post
There's nothing especially wrong with Earl's or any of those places, they're just representative of that "casual fine-dining" asthetic that seems to be an especially big deal in western Canada. See also, Moxie's, White Spot, Brewster's (not the one in Bedford, but the pub/brewery chain in Alberta).

It's a bit middle-of-the-road and characterless, as if the generic quality of fast-food chains moved up a few culinary plateaus. It's not bad, but it is boring and it doesn't add anything to the dining scene. Being able to eat the same chicken quesadilla you can get in Vancouver or Edmonton doesn't strike me as a notch in our belt.

I'd much rather see one great independent restaurant open downtown (like Highwayman, last year) than any of those places.

The Stubborn Goat is basically an Earl's anyway, except with better beer selection.
On that, I have to disagree.
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  #2073  
Old Posted Jan 18, 2017, 12:40 AM
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Originally Posted by Drybrain View Post
There's nothing especially wrong with Earl's or any of those places, they're just representative of that "casual fine-dining" asthetic that seems to be an especially big deal in western Canada. See also, Moxie's, White Spot, Brewster's (not the one in Bedford, but the pub/brewery chain in Alberta).

It's a bit middle-of-the-road and characterless, as if the generic quality of fast-food chains moved up a few culinary plateaus. It's not bad, but it is boring and it doesn't add anything to the dining scene. Being able to eat the same chicken quesadilla you can get in Vancouver or Edmonton doesn't strike me as a notch in our belt.

I'd much rather see one great independent restaurant open downtown (like Highwayman, last year) than any of those places.

The Stubborn Goat is basically an Earl's anyway, except with better beer selection.
That sounds rather elitist.

And having eaten at The Stubborn Goat, I seriously question the validity of your argument. It is... not good.
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  #2074  
Old Posted Jan 18, 2017, 4:06 AM
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That sounds rather elitist.
Is it elitist to prefer unique restaurants over chains? I get that being snooty or condescending about things like restaurant preferences IS elitist, but on the other hand, I'd really hate to see downtown Halifax fill up with a bunch of boring chain restaurants. I don't think having an Earl's is any kind of feather in our cap. It's harder to express that sentiment without coming off as kind of snide, I guess.

(I'm not a fan of the Stubborn Goat either, but the menu isn't too dissimilar from the gussied-up pub-grub of a lot of chain joints).
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  #2075  
Old Posted Jan 18, 2017, 11:14 AM
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Originally Posted by Drybrain View Post
Is it elitist to prefer unique restaurants over chains? I get that being snooty or condescending about things like restaurant preferences IS elitist, but on the other hand, I'd really hate to see downtown Halifax fill up with a bunch of boring chain restaurants. I don't think having an Earl's is any kind of feather in our cap. It's harder to express that sentiment without coming off as kind of snide, I guess.

(I'm not a fan of the Stubborn Goat either, but the menu isn't too dissimilar from the gussied-up pub-grub of a lot of chain joints).
I lived in Halifax for decades, mainly downtown, (not currently) and cannot remember eating in a chain restaurant. I have been dragged to chain restaurants in other cities by friends or business associates and they are so excited about the latest thing. I generally find them boring and usually noisy and poorer service than what I expect.
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  #2076  
Old Posted Jan 18, 2017, 1:05 PM
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Mic Mac Mall Redevelopment

Halifax ReTales on twitter this morning has pointed out the Target space is no longer listed as vacant on their lease plans.

He's reporting that Sport Chek and Indigo will take up each level or side by side on both levels.

The old Chapters space might be either Earl's or Milestones Restaurant.

They might also be replacing the seating area of the food court and making changes to the first floor escalators.

Last edited by q12; Jan 18, 2017 at 1:24 PM.
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  #2077  
Old Posted Jan 18, 2017, 2:09 PM
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The Chronicle Herald ran a decent story this morning about some of the retail changes occuring around town. The two that stuck out at me is Bier Market is confirmed for Nova Centre and will open in August, and Morris East will open a third location in The Keep (U/C on Quinpool).
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  #2078  
Old Posted Jan 18, 2017, 6:31 PM
OldDartmouthMark OldDartmouthMark is offline
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Originally Posted by Drybrain View Post
Is it elitist to prefer unique restaurants over chains? I get that being snooty or condescending about things like restaurant preferences IS elitist, but on the other hand, I'd really hate to see downtown Halifax fill up with a bunch of boring chain restaurants. I don't think having an Earl's is any kind of feather in our cap. It's harder to express that sentiment without coming off as kind of snide, I guess.

(I'm not a fan of the Stubborn Goat either, but the menu isn't too dissimilar from the gussied-up pub-grub of a lot of chain joints).
I wouldn't consider your preference to be elitist - it's just a preference, simple as that. Sometimes people just like to attach labels to things they don't agree with, but I'll leave it at that.

Re: Stubborn Goat. I haven't been there in months, but I've always enjoyed it. I have to say that there must be a few more people who like it as well, as I've often had a hard time finding an empty table there...

I also enjoyed Earl's when I was "out west" a couple of years ago. There are certainly worse, IMHO, but I recognize that these things are totally subjective.
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  #2079  
Old Posted Jan 19, 2017, 1:10 AM
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I can understand a business park or a suburban mall being full of generic chain restaurants, but I think it's preferable in the primary cultural centre of a city to have lots of local businesses that reflect the local culture and heritage. Argyle St. as it existed 10 years ago did that pretty well but has been losing a lot of businesses, and I think it would be a shame to see it turn totally corporate. There's nothing wrong with Earl's or Moxies, but they're hardly a unique cultural experience for all the visitors to downtown.

Mind you, maybe the Nova Centre conference attendees won't care about that. And maybe the cultural centre will move to Gottingen / Agricola, as it already seems to be starting to - it's just a shame that area is sort of cut off from the waterfront.
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  #2080  
Old Posted Jan 19, 2017, 2:23 AM
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What's wrong with Earl's? They're very popular everywhere I've seen them.
I've never been to the Earl's in Halifax but my first visit to one in Winnipeg didn't leave me with a good impression. The clientele and staff were loud and trashy. Our waitress was trashy and a flat out racist.

We said we wanted to have a drink on the patio. The waitress responded that the patio required a food purchase. With a smirk on her face she barked out ' go inside and you can go drink all you want!' We were taken aback and realized pretty quickly that she thought some people in our party were First Nations.

She was basically insinuating that we were drunk Indians. I questioned whether I had read that wrong but everyone in our party said that's exactly what just happened. We've never stepped foot in an Earls since.
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