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Old Posted Aug 29, 2020, 5:27 PM
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[Dartmouth] Shannon Park Redevelopment | ? m | ? fl | Approved

Looks like Canada Lands Company has submitted a plan to Halifax Planning for the long anticipated redevelopment of Shannon Park. There's no information on the planning website for now.


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  #2  
Old Posted Nov 26, 2020, 4:00 AM
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Many months later ....

The details are now up for Halifax Planning Case #22734.

"The proposed redevelopment of the former Shannon Park lands consists of:
• 26 new city blocks
• ~3,000 residential units (range of building forms)
• ~145,000 square feet of commercial space
• ~16.4 acres of public park space
• Proposed to be created in 4 phases
• Includes new public streets, municipal services such as water and sewer, and a new transit facility"

It should be noted that the development agreement will set the style and layout of the new community but the specific buildings will be based on the new zoning, height restrictions, land use requirements, and built form requirements that will be approved. Each building will have to go through the new approval process for Centre Plan projects. Basically CLC will build the infrastructure and establish clear rules for what can be built. Individual developers will be responsible for getting their buildings approved and construction permits issued.
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Old Posted Nov 26, 2020, 2:56 PM
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Given the current housing crisis and our government's (both municipal and provincial) willingness to let landlords shoulder both the blame and especially the burden, the information provided and the tone of the application letter in this submission leads one to shake their head in disbelief. Five years and counting just to come up with a plan to move forward?!! And what's up with Bloomfield? Where's our local press? I don't want to hear that we can't afford to hire the required staff because apparently we can afford AT projects. Aren't we serving the gravy before the meat is cooked?
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Old Posted Nov 26, 2020, 3:20 PM
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Having tried and mostly failed to read the Centre Plan document that Council apparently approved without reading it as they were rushing out the door prior to the election I wonder why and how any developer would be able to follow the ridiculous processes they have laid out. The level of minuscule detail they demand is simply absurd, right down to the font choice and size on the required signs that they require posting on-site. I truly believe you are looking at decades if anyone is foolish enough (and is willing to spend a ton of money) to try to follow all of the arcane requirements it imposes.
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Old Posted Nov 26, 2020, 6:50 PM
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Originally Posted by Citizen_Bane View Post
Given the current housing crisis and our government's (both municipal and provincial) willingness to let landlords shoulder both the blame and especially the burden, the information provided and the tone of the application letter in this submission leads one to shake their head in disbelief.
Halifax is pretty much just following the same old bad path many other cities have followed, basically uniformly unsuccessfully, where there's a big disconnect between housing demand on the one hand and then a heavy and slow planning process on the other that is mostly focused on placating people who already own property.

As much as the media focused on the apartment crisis, Halifax had an unusually large amount of rental construction. A 2% rent cap could easily kill that off and cause new construction to go condo. Which means that a lot of people at the low end of the market will be locked out or will go from renting from professional landlords to renting from DIY condo owner landlords. The cap will protect current but not future tenants.
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Old Posted Nov 27, 2020, 2:13 AM
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It’s definitely good to hear some signs of progress, I remember attending the meeting when it was unveiled a few years ago. Because of the extended timelines involved in planning the site, I’m really hoping to see a higher standard of development to reflect that. I think it’s worth waiting for the results before unleashing a tirade that reads like a cheap copy of an already downmarket Toronto Sun article.
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Old Posted Nov 27, 2020, 3:41 AM
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A 2% rent cap could easily kill that off and cause new construction to go condo. Which means that a lot of people at the low end of the market will be locked out or will go from renting from professional landlords to renting from DIY condo owner landlords. The cap will protect current but not future tenants.[/QUOTE]

I spoke with a friend who owns ten rental units this evening and he is not happy. He had been renting 6 of his units at below market price as he always felt it was better to have happy, stable income than gouging people and high turn over. As he said tonight " you want me to fix what?" he is someone that was never afraid to properly invest in his units between tenants ( I have helped gut a couple of them) but now feels it may be time to let things slide until he sells them to finance his retirement despite the obvious market conditions.
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Old Posted Nov 27, 2020, 12:14 PM
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Originally Posted by Dartguard View Post
I spoke with a friend who owns ten rental units this evening and he is not happy. He had been renting 6 of his units at below market price as he always felt it was better to have happy, stable income than gouging people and high turn over. As he said tonight " you want me to fix what?" he is someone that was never afraid to properly invest in his units between tenants ( I have helped gut a couple of them) but now feels it may be time to let things slide until he sells them to finance his retirement despite the obvious market conditions.
Yes, rent control seldom ever works and this is clearly a political response from a govt that has been backed into a corner and feels the need to "do something". But as is almost always the case with govt, they got it very wrong.
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Old Posted Nov 27, 2020, 12:51 PM
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Originally Posted by Keith P. View Post
Having tried and mostly failed to read the Centre Plan document that Council apparently approved without reading it as they were rushing out the door prior to the election I wonder why and how any developer would be able to follow the ridiculous processes they have laid out. The level of minuscule detail they demand is simply absurd, right down to the font choice and size on the required signs that they require posting on-site. I truly believe you are looking at decades if anyone is foolish enough (and is willing to spend a ton of money) to try to follow all of the arcane requirements it imposes.
As someone who occasionally works on planning applications to the city, Centre Plan is a vast improvement over what came before. Yes, there are many requirements, but the nice thing about requirements is that you can read them and figure them out. Previous to this it was a crapshoot as to who you would get as the planner on the file, how the winds of politics would shift, and what out-of-the-blue hurdle HRM would create for you to next jump. Sure, the old system benefitted a few developers who had the resources and bull-headedness to fight through the politics and bureaucracy and community opposition, but for everyone else it was an exercise in pulling your hair out.

I can much more easily take the time to figure out that the application sign needs 24pt Times New Roman font than have to go back to the drawing board because Community Council told us to knock three floors off the building.
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  #10  
Old Posted Nov 27, 2020, 9:03 PM
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I did the numbers on a rental project. The landlord would be making out like a bandit if the new rules were not in place. Now he'll just do very well. Cheap money is readily available, well under 2% for 5 year money. If any developer starts singing the blues ask him to provide the financial details. Or check the mortgage documents available at the Registry of Deeds, that is a good place to start. ( In Britain financial statements are available from filings with a government agency.)
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Old Posted Nov 27, 2020, 9:29 PM
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Originally Posted by Colin May View Post
I did the numbers on a rental project. The landlord would be making out like a bandit if the new rules were not in place. Now he'll just do very well. Cheap money is readily available, well under 2% for 5 year money. If any developer starts singing the blues ask him to provide the financial details. Or check the mortgage documents available at the Registry of Deeds, that is a good place to start. ( In Britain financial statements are available from filings with a government agency.)
This is not really getting at the problems of rent control, many of which affect tenants.

One problem is that it doesn't follow the tenant, so people get locked into specific apartments. Got a job at the other end of town? I guess you're taking the bus for an hour, because you won't want to move and get hit by a huge rent increase. Or maybe your household size changed and a different unit would suit you better? Too bad.

It also favours people who have lived in an apartment for a long time over new tenants, regardless of economic background. The middle aged wealthy South End renter will tend to get the biggest subsidy from this policy.

And as already mentioned it's a disincentive to improve units so once you move in to a place, maintenance and upgrades will be near nil. It's worse than just landlords not wanting to spend money because bad maintenance encourages turnover in tenants. You renovated and get a new tenant, then you let the place fall apart for 5-10 years, then they move out, then you renovate and get a new tenant. Good luck going after the landlord for this as a poor tenant.

As a builder you can avoid all this by building condo instead of rental. This is how it works in Toronto and Vancouver.

But most people will think of this in terms of how much money landlords "should" charge for rent.
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  #12  
Old Posted Nov 27, 2020, 9:37 PM
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Originally Posted by Good Baklava View Post
It’s definitely good to hear some signs of progress, I remember attending the meeting when it was unveiled a few years ago. Because of the extended timelines involved in planning the site, I’m really hoping to see a higher standard of development to reflect that. I think it’s worth waiting for the results before unleashing a tirade that reads like a cheap copy of an already downmarket Toronto Sun article.
To be clear I don't really have a problem with Shannon Park per se, and the slowness of planning may indeed make the outcome nicer (we can't really know from these documents so far). I see a pattern of these large developments taking unusually long in Halifax, sometimes a decade or longer, although it seems like there has been progress on a few of them. The speed of developments is linked to the housing supply which is linked to prices.

Given the scale of Shannon Park I'd guess that it alone could have significantly reduced pressure on rental rates in the metro area if it had been planned as non-luxury market rate rentals that has started to come online by 2018 or so with a bunch of streets having been laid out already to allow for scaling out the development faster as demand dictates.

Cogswell, the old school sites, Shannon Park, RCMP, etc. etc. They all add up to quite a lot of potential housing in areas that people want.
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Old Posted Nov 28, 2020, 12:28 AM
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This is not really getting at the problems of rent control, many of which affect tenants.

One problem is that it doesn't follow the tenant, so people get locked into specific apartments.
As a builder you can avoid all this by building condo instead of rental. This is how it works in Toronto and Vancouver.
But most people will think of this in terms of how much money landlords "should" charge for rent.
I view it as a short-term fix. Reputable landlords don't do a quick reno and then double rents.
If you look around metro you can see who is gouging.
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Old Posted Nov 28, 2020, 12:10 PM
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I view it as a short-term fix. Reputable landlords don't do a quick reno and then double rents.
If you look around metro you can see who is gouging.
This is an excellent point. I've been with two different REITs in the last couple years. The first was a new building, which saw yearly increases of 2%, as well as a 2% bump with turnover. The second was in an older building and had an increase of 3%, but was also 2/3 the price of the first place.

These places getting quick renos are also seem to be the ones that are in disrepair to begin with.
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Old Posted Nov 28, 2020, 4:01 PM
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I view it as a short-term fix. Reputable landlords don't do a quick reno and then double rents.
If you look around metro you can see who is gouging.
I could not agree more that an interim measure was needed to be implemented in this time of covid. We truly are in a housing crisis situation. However, I struggle with the notion that business owners (landlords) should ignore market realities and volunteer to take a financial loss through not maximizing their profits. The low housing supply in the market is not of their making. Both our provincial and municipal governments have been singing the success of our population growth for years now. Clearly they didn't consider that this growing population would need a place to live. In a Herald opinion piece this morning Councilor Mason seems to be laying the blame at the feet of the province and clouds the real issue of lack of supply with truths surrounding social/affordable housing and where responsibility for that issue lies. The two issues need to be dealt with separately, if they are to be dealt with properly. The Centre Plan took far too long. Why? Lack of staff to do the work perhaps? The truth is our city owns lots of underutilized building lots and is moving far too slowly on city development issues.
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Old Posted Nov 28, 2020, 8:15 PM
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The truth is our city owns lots of underutilized building lots and is moving far too slowly on city development issues.
Councillors love blaming higher levels of government. I would like to see councillors in the Centre Plan area specifying areas that are ready for development or areas where a simple change would free up a property for quick development. I know of several such places,( because I went looking for them.)
A change in government next year would be very welcome.
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Old Posted Nov 28, 2020, 10:09 PM
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I can much more easily take the time to figure out that the application sign needs 24pt Times New Roman font than have to go back to the drawing board because Community Council told us to knock three floors off the building.
Now the planner just lop the floors off for them without asking?
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Old Posted Nov 29, 2020, 1:07 PM
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Originally Posted by Citizen_Bane View Post
In a Herald opinion piece this morning Councilor Mason seems to be laying the blame at the feet of the province and clouds the real issue of lack of supply with truths surrounding social/affordable housing and where responsibility for that issue lies. The two issues need to be dealt with separately, if they are to be dealt with properly. The Centre Plan took far too long. Why? Lack of staff to do the work perhaps? The truth is our city owns lots of underutilized building lots and is moving far too slowly on city development issues.
The Mason missive was more of his typical nonsense, deflecting blame onto the province and suggesting that if only they had more money HRM could do a far better job. He is alternatively considered either a windbag laughingstock or a PITA among senior people within PNS for this sort of thing (the picture of him accompanying the article does make him appear to be badly overinflated too). There is zero evidence of his claim being true given they first would actually need to create a duplicate bureaucracy internally to administer it all, soaking up a large percentage of whatever funding would be available, and then try to figure out what to do with the pittance that remains. We saw the past efforts in this regard both here and elsewhere, with council housing in the UK and social housing here that were both sorry places to be warehoused. He also ignores the reality that if you create lots of social housing that is somewhat attractive, more people will be attracted to it, including those from outside HRM, adding to the problem. It is an issue that can never be fully solved by govt.

As for the Centre Plan, it is hardly the fault of not having enough staff. The HRM Planning Dept is full of young planners not long out of from school with their heads filled with the current planning dogma. That is why the document reads like a case study in a planning textbook instead of something targeted at the current issues regarding development in HRM. It is far too prescriptive, far too complex, and some of its goals seem to make very little sense. You can have a cannabis production facility or weed lounge on the peninsula in the CP area (despite weed lounges being explicitly illegal at present) but not a car dealership. WTH did that come from? Did Council members even read this before passing it? The answer: from the same bunch that have been waging war on the private vehicle here for the last several years. It is pandering to the current planning mindset but badly out of touch with the reality of what most citizens would expect or want. The distorted "we know better" mindset it illustrates is patriarchal to the extreme.
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Old Posted Nov 29, 2020, 3:18 PM
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To be clear I don't really have a problem with Shannon Park per se, and the slowness of planning may indeed make the outcome nicer (we can't really know from these documents so far). I see a pattern of these large developments taking unusually long in Halifax, sometimes a decade or longer, although it seems like there has been progress on a few of them. The speed of developments is linked to the housing supply which is linked to prices.

Given the scale of Shannon Park I'd guess that it alone could have significantly reduced pressure on rental rates in the metro area if it had been planned as non-luxury market rate rentals that has started to come online by 2018 or so with a bunch of streets having been laid out already to allow for scaling out the development faster as demand dictates.

Cogswell, the old school sites, Shannon Park, RCMP, etc. etc. They all add up to quite a lot of potential housing in areas that people want.
I agree that more supply can never hurt. With all the stages of approval required for federal and provincial projects, I’m sure the government employees tasked with them are also frustrated with delays to their timeline. I know many friends from abroad who like to joke about how long things take in Canada.

To clarify my position, it isn’t that these government sites aren’t taking too long. Rather, I don’t think it’s right to blindly build anything anywhere because some like to think “the government is always wrong”. We shouldn’t be over-simplifying the issue to lack of supply, because while that answers most questions it doesn’t answer every question in detail. Even if Shannon park had started to be developed a couple years ago, there would probably only be small sections completed by now since other privately owned projects of similar scale are still in very early stages despite being started years earlier. I also don’t think any one actor should be blamed entirely. It’s not “just the province” or “just the city” or “just the REIT”, I like to think each one of them contributes to the problem, or fails to act in one way or another.

On the topic of renovictions, I feel there needs to be a mix of conditions that leads to them. I know there was an epidemic of renovictions along the new LRT line in KW because it raised land values and landlords naturally capitalized on this potential. It wasn’t that the landlords were crooks, it was just that the value of their land radically shifted and there’s no way long-time tenants could have avoided that.
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Old Posted Nov 29, 2020, 3:46 PM
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Now the planner just lop the floors off for them without asking?
I think he was implying that was before the centre plan, I thought the whole point was that approvals would be streamlined if they meet the new guidelines for the area to avoid haphazard downgrades to the project. I do think that there should be some periods of review to accommodate larger developments in the future if growth accelerates. Perhaps every 5 years the city could evaluate whether it aligns with demographic trends or the needs of various stakeholders, and update accordingly. Although perhaps the planning growth outside the centre should be prioritized next. Thoughts?
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