Interprovincial bridge crossing discussion

[J.OT13]

Originally Posted by kwoldtimer

Someone would have to walk me through how advocating the closure/lane reduction for existing bridges doesn't undercut the argument that a new bridge is needed.

A new bridge is needed, but not necessarily for capacity issues. The main goal for Ottawa would be to remove truck traffic, from downtown. For both Ottawa and Gatineau, a new bridge would eliminate unnecessary car trips through downtown.

In terms of capacity, the MC bridge has plenty to spare, but King Edward does not, so we need to shift traffic elsewhere.

The NCC and the Feds have not proposed removing car lanes from other bridges, but many of us believe this could be done to better the central area of both cities and provide an incentive for both cities to get on board with the project.

[CityTech]

Originally Posted by kwoldtimer

Someone would have to walk me through how advocating the closure/lane reduction for existing bridges doesn't undercut the argument that a new bridge is needed.

It's about moving the existing traffic load to better spots and taking cars out of the central core.

[acottawa]

Originally Posted by CityTech

I would support building Kettle Island as long as we close Alexandra and/or reduce the lanes on the MC. Basically I want to make sure that we don't have any net increase in crossriver capacity, so as to prevent sprawl growth on the Quebec side.

We’re spending big bucks to encourage sprawl on the Ontario side.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by J.OT13

Now Montfort's concerns may be legitimate or may just be perceived. Montfort's management are not urban planning experts, so they cannot know for sure. That is why planers and engineers who would be working on the project will have to explain how Montfort's concerns can be mitigated and addressed. This has never happened up until now. Once it does, I'm sure the hospital's opposition will be withdrawn.
.

Montfort is simply fighting the good fight and standing up for the team as one of the biggest Franco-Ontarian institutions in Ottawa. Their practical concerns about traffic on the parkway are as others have said, not really that big a deal.

Ironically, a bridge could be beneficial to Montfort on a practical level as a significant chunk of their staff lives in Quebec.

But that's also indirectly why they oppose the bridge. Not so much because they don't want people from Quebec to come work at Montfort, but rather because making access to Ottawa easier for Quebec residents is perceived by the leadership of the Franco-Ontarian community as a drain on their demographics. A huge number of Ottawa francophones have already moved to the Quebec side, and that pisses these people off. They don't want anything that will make it easier to do that.

My sense is that rank-and-file Franco-Ontarians have a more nuanced view, but it's not a coincidence that all of the community's leaders have always been dead-set against any new transportation links to Quebec.

[roger1818]

Originally Posted by kwoldtimer

Someone would have to walk me through how advocating the closure/lane reduction for existing bridges doesn't undercut the argument that a new bridge is needed.

It is easy. The new bridge would most likely have 4 lanes. Even if you took away 2 lanes from the MC bridge (or removed both vehicle lanes from the Alexandra bridge), you we still end up with 2 more vehicle lanes than we had before. Besides, the vehicle lanes removed would be repurposed as sidewalks, cycle tracks or transit lanes, thus further increasing the capacity to move other modes of traffic.

Originally Posted by acottawa

We’re spending big bucks to encourage sprawl on the Ontario side.

I don't see a new bridge doing much to encourage sprawl as it wouldn't be very useful for travel to/from Hull (or downtown Ottawa). Do you really think that there are so many job opportunities east of the Gatineau River, that those working there will find it better to live in Eastern Ontario rather than Gatineau if the bridge is built?

If anything it could do the oppose. Reducing the amount of traffic trough Lower Town would make the area more attractive to developers, resulting in more, denser housing in the central core.

[acottawa]

Originally Posted by Acajack

Montfort is simply fighting the good fight and standing up for the team as one of the biggest Franco-Ontarian institutions in Ottawa. Their practical concerns about traffic on the parkway are as others have said, not really that big a deal.

Ironically, a bridge could be beneficial to Montfort on a practical level as a significant chunk of their staff lives in Quebec.

But that's also indirectly why they oppose the bridge. Not so much because they don't want people from Quebec to come work at Montfort, but rather because making access to Ottawa easier for Quebec residents is perceived by the leadership of the Franco-Ontarian community as a drain on their demographics. A huge number of Ottawa francophones have already moved to the Quebec side, and that pisses these people off. They don't want anything that will make it easier to do that.

My sense is that rank-and-file Franco-Ontarians have a more nuanced view, but it's not a coincidence that all of the community's leaders have always been dead-set against any new transportation links to Quebec.

I don’t understand what makes it a Francophone hospital. It is fully bilingual (I had surgery a few years ago and was fully served in English), it’s catchment area is mostly Anglo. I’m sure it was an important institution 50 years ago when French services were not available at other hospitals, but I can’t imagine any francophone tells their ambulance driver to drive by other hospitals so they can go to the Montfort.

[acottawa]

Originally Posted by roger1818

It is easy. The new bridge would most likely have 4 lanes. Even if you took away 2 lanes from the MC bridge (or removed both vehicle lanes from the Alexandra bridge), you we still end up with 2 more vehicle lanes than we had before. Besides, the vehicle lanes removed would be repurposed as sidewalks, cycle tracks or transit lanes, thus further increasing the capacity to move other modes of traffic.



I don't see a new bridge doing much to encourage sprawl as it wouldn't be very useful for travel to/from Hull (or downtown Ottawa). Do you really think that there are so many job opportunities east of the Gatineau River, that those working there will find it better to live in Eastern Ontario rather than Gatineau if the bridge is built?

If anything it could do the oppose. Reducing the amount of traffic trough Lower Town would make the area more attractive to developers, resulting in more, denser housing in the central core.

Most jobs in Ottawa are not downtown. We currently route all interprovincial traffic through downtown, but that doesn’t mean people want to go there.

[kwoldtimer]

Originally Posted by acottawa

We’re spending big bucks to encourage sprawl on the Ontario side.

Sprawl inside the Greenbelt? Although big bucks indeed, for a couple lanes of traffic.

[roger1818]

Originally Posted by acottawa

Most jobs in Ottawa are not downtown. We currently route all interprovincial traffic through downtown, but that doesn’t mean people want to go there.

I am not sure about the percentage of jobs downtown, but I am well aware that many (if not most) people don't work downtown (I have never worked in downtown Ottawa, though I did have to go to Hull for a couple weeks).

Since you seem to have this huge disdain for sprawl, I will ask you two questions:

1. Why is it a good thing to route all interprovincial traffic through downtown?
2. Why is it a good thing to encourage people who don't work downtown to live downtown?

IMHO, we should be encouraging people to live near where they work whenever possible, and save the downtown traffic for those bound for downtown.

(I am extending the definition of downtown to include Hull in this post)

[roger1818]

Originally Posted by kwoldtimer

Sprawl inside the Greenbelt? Although big bucks indeed, for a couple lanes of traffic.

A couple lanes of traffic (especially trucks) diverted from Lower Town is not trivial.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by roger1818

A couple lanes of traffic (especially trucks) diverted from Lower Town is not trivial.

Correct. If it wasn't then every single city and even many towns across North America (and even the world) would not have spent money building highway bypasses so that heavy trucks and pass-through traffic didn't have to go through their core areas.

In the 1970s and 1980s when I was a kid there were still lots of places (especially in the Canada, in the U.S. it was mostly done by that time) where the heavy truck route was the main street in town. This due to the fact that the "main highway" or "main road" of another era usually doubled as the main street. In Ottawa, the main intercity and cross-town route for much of the city's existence was Richmond-Wellington-Rideau-Montreal. Originally the Queensway was actuallly a bypass of sorts that took traffic that didn't need to be there off that corridor.

A Kettle Island bridge (or some other bridge outside the core) would have the effect of taking that outdated role away from King Edward, and make part of downtown Ottawa feel less like downtown Hawkesbury and Campbellton (places that still have heavy truck routes leading to bridges in their cores).

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by acottawa

I don’t understand what makes it a Francophone hospital. It is fully bilingual (I had surgery a few years ago and was fully served in English), it’s catchment area is mostly Anglo. I’m sure it was an important institution 50 years ago when French services were not available at other hospitals, but I can’t imagine any francophone tells their ambulance driver to drive by other hospitals so they can go to the Montfort.

Well, even if services are bilingual internally the hospital operates in French. As such it is one of the only (the only?) francophone teaching hospitals in Canada outside Quebec.

Also, for having had a family member hospitalized a fair bit in recent times, at both the Montfort and the General, there is a significant difference in the level of service in French between the two. Montfort offers wall-to-wall service and care in French if that's what you want. The General has some staff who speak French but I wouldn't call bilingual services there comprehensive by any stretch of the imagination. (Based on my family's experience.)

And of course, when talking about Montfort one can't underestimate the power of symbolism.

Montreal's anglo hospitals have a fair number of francophones working and getting care in them, and so French is widely spoken there. But they are very important to the anglo community just the same.

[J.OT13]

Originally Posted by acottawa

I don’t understand what makes it a Francophone hospital. It is fully bilingual (I had surgery a few years ago and was fully served in English), it’s catchment area is mostly Anglo. I’m sure it was an important institution 50 years ago when French services were not available at other hospitals, but I can’t imagine any francophone tells their ambulance driver to drive by other hospitals so they can go to the Montfort.

What makes it French in this day and age is that it is fully bilingual. If a Franco lands at the General or Civic, they will likely have to deal with Anglo staff (my experience), while at the Montfort, you have the choice to use your preferred language. Generally speaking, the vast majority of Franco-Ontarians are bilingual, but many (if not most) Anglos are not.

And although Anglos outnumber Francos pretty much everywhere in Ottawa, the vast majority of Francos are in Vanier, Orleans and the general east-end. So no, if you call an ambulance, you won't have a choice of hospital, but if you're a francophone, there's a good chance Montfort is the closest facility to your home.

My defence of Montfort goes well beyond the choice of language. It's an important institution for the area and the city as a whole. A city of our size needs multiple hospitals. When there is an emergency, time is of the essence. Centralizing medical care might be good for the pocket-book, but it's an absolute terrible way to serve the population.

EDIT: Well said Acajack, on the operations and it's role as a Francophone teaching hospital.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by J.OT13

EDIT: Well said Acajack, on the operations and it's role as a Francophone teaching hospital.

Actually, the Georges-Dumont in Moncton is also a francophone teaching hospital. They are the only two outside Quebec.

[acottawa]

Originally Posted by roger1818

I am not sure about the percentage of jobs downtown, but I am well aware that many (if not most) people don't work downtown (I have never worked in downtown Ottawa, though I did have to go to Hull for a couple weeks).

Since you seem to have this huge disdain for sprawl, I will ask you two questions:

1. Why is it a good thing to route all interprovincial traffic through downtown?
2. Why is it a good thing to encourage people who don't work downtown to live downtown?

IMHO, we should be encouraging people to live near where they work whenever possible, and save the downtown traffic for those bound for downtown.

(I am extending the definition of downtown to include Hull in this post)

I was just disagreeing that it won’t encourage sprawl. I also think local governments across the region are all supporting sprawl, as have provincial governments on both sides of the river, so there is no particular reason to single out East Gatineau sprawl from the others.

[YOWetal]

Originally Posted by roger1818

A couple lanes of traffic (especially trucks) diverted from Lower Town is not trivial.

Well that is widely optimistic about how much will be diverted. The traffic routed around the city fantasy is really 1960s transportation policy. We all know beltways are quickly filled with new traffic from increased sprawl. The same thing will likely happen here.

[J.OT13]

I don't understand the sprawl argument, at least for the Kettle Island option. It's a very central location. It's not going to make it far more convenient to live in Masson, Buckingham, Orleans or Rockland. Any of the two other options, then maybe.

[roger1818]

Originally Posted by YOWetal

Well that is widely optimistic about how much will be diverted.

How so? If some of the lanes on the existing bridges are removed and traffic calming measures are applied to King Edward and the Hull part of the A-5, traffic that is bound for neither Hull or Lower Town can't help but be diverted.

Originally Posted by YOWetal

The traffic routed around the city fantasy is really 1960s transportation policy. We all know beltways are quickly filled with new traffic from increased sprawl. The same thing will likely happen here.

The difference here is most beltways provide a longer route with the promise of it being faster. This will provide a shorter route for many. Allowing trips to be shorter is a good thing.

[Acajack]

People also talk about heavy truck traffic as if it's unstoppable like a river returning its natural bed.

Cities and provinces do have the power to regulate things and funnel traffic to where they want it to go. And they can fine you or take away your permission to operate if you don't comply.

[YOWetal]

Originally Posted by roger1818

How so? If some of the lanes on the existing bridges are removed and traffic calming measures are applied to King Edward and the Hull part of the A-5, traffic that is bound for neither Hull or Lower Town can't help but be diverted.



The difference here is most beltways provide a longer route with the promise of it being faster. This will provide a shorter route for many. Allowing trips to be shorter is a good thing.

Realistically they aren't going to remove lanes. Very slight calming is possible but anything significant that backs up traffic is unlikely. I don't even see it getting the "Main Street" reductions.

It will not be a shorter route for many. Sure those going to Vanier, Montfort and even Foreign Affairs from eastern Gatineau and points east will avoid going downtown but how many more will go a few exits in the opposite direction on the 50 loop around to get to the Market or even points west of there.