Interprovincial bridge crossing discussion

[lrt's friend]

“If a bridge is not built, traffic will still increase over the next two decades by 66 per cent,” he said.

A tunnel does not address this point, which in the long run is the most important issue. We will be choking on traffic particularly downtown. I know that others have suggested a decline in traffic, which is assumed to be projectable for 20 years despite population growth. What nonsense.

Not providing adequate transportation infrastructure is going to have a negative impact on our quality of life. Nobody likes building new major roads but at some point we must do so otherwise we will be facing unacceptable congestion, which will make getting around the city increasingly difficult.

[Ottawa superman]

Originally Posted by lrt's friend

A tunnel does not address this point, which in the long run is the most important issue. We will be choking on traffic particularly downtown. I know that others have suggested a decline in traffic, which is assumed to be projectable for 20 years despite population growth. What nonsense.

Not providing adequate transportation infrastructure is going to have a negative impact on our quality of life. Nobody likes building new major roads but at some point we must do so otherwise we will be facing unacceptable congestion, which will make getting around the city increasingly difficult.

The NCC traffic increase estimated at 66% is highly unrealistic. Ottawa Gatineau population is expected to grow at moderate level with no increase in population at above 10%. I highly doubt the traffic increase of 66% are even achievable. Without large scale migration from Ottawa to Gatineau. Beside, congestion is a factor of life for commuter, they are aware of the downside, I don't think it has an effect on their quality of life.

[eternallyme]

Originally Posted by J.OT13

Agreed, I too would prefer allowing cars along with the main purpose of getting trucks off the street.

How would we pay for it? Well, the tunnel is an Ottawa solution to an Ottawa problem, so obviously, Québec would not have to contribute. I figure it would cost about the same as the bridge, more $ per km, but much shorter.

The feds and province could split on the tunnel portion with the City paying to rebuilt King Eds as a grand boulevard. I would recommend some sort of fee for truck companies to use the tunnel; buy a year round permit, cost varying according too number of trucks, size and frequency they would use the tunnel.

Electronic tolling which should be used to pay it off would be the best idea.

Quebec might have to deal with congestion at the 5/50 interchange, but that is entirely in their jurisdiction. Otherwise, it would be a City of Ottawa-owned tunnel, possibly with some provincial money used in construction.

[lrt's friend]

Originally Posted by Ottawa superman

The NCC traffic increase estimated at 66% is highly unrealistic. Ottawa Gatineau population is expected to grow at moderate level with no increase in population at above 10%. I highly doubt the traffic increase of 66% are even achievable. Without large scale migration from Ottawa to Gatineau. Beside, congestion is a factor of life for commuter, they are aware of the downside, I don't think it has an effect on their quality of life.

I think you should ask Torontonians about this. Commuting time and congestion does affect the quality of life of residents. Who wants to be in traffic two or three hours a day. This is coming to Ottawa as the city continues to grow. And if we fail to build adequate infrastructure, we are going to create a crises.

This is why the province is talking about how to fund $50B in transportation infrastructure for the GTA after the previous provincial government stopped funding such things for years.

When we talk about traffic increases, it is not simply a matter of population growth. It is also influenced by employment patterns that are increasingly moving away from downtown. This brings about longer commutes and more single occupant trips. Both actually increase traffic. Think of the move DND from downtown to west Nepean. That will add a lot of traffic to the Queensway. Many of those people live in Quebec or east Ottawa and will now be commuting by car. The same will apply to the RCMP move to Barrhaven. Longer commutes does fill more road space.

I am saddened that you are not concerned about the overall deterioration of traffic conditions to the point that you support inaction or a solution that only addresses one part of the problem and likely at much higher cost. Basically, you wish to push the problem onto other neighbourhoods. We all have a responsibility to accept some of this burden and most of us in other parts of the city already do.

[khabibulin]

Originally Posted by Acajack

WTF? The Kettle Island Bridge, if it is ever built, will not be built solely so that francophones working in Ottawa can live in a low-density, predominantly francophone milieu on Quebec territory...

It will also be built:
- to provide a linkage between the eastern parts of Ottawa and Gatineau, and between this part of eastern Ontario and western Quebec (note there is no bridge on the Ottawa River between the Macdonald-Cartier and Hawkesbury, a distance of close to 100 km)

None of this is anecdotal, ireelevant or non-factual.

A couple of concerns I have with this argument:

1) Is ther a proven need for another bridge between Hawkesbury and the Macdonald -Cartier?

2) If there is a need, why would you build another bridge only 5 km's from the Macdonald-Cartier? If you did that, people would argue that there is no bridge between Kettle Island and Hawkesbury, a distance of close to 95 km.

[J.OT13]

Currently it seems that the problem we are trying to solve is the truck traffic downtown. The only permanent solution to this is the tunnel. The Kettle Island bridge would only be an extremely expensive Band-Aid solution. I think the bridge should be built, but in a few decades for vehicular traffic and possibly rapid transit.

As for 50 billion in the GTA, Ottawa should either demand our fair share (NCR on the ON side; 1.1 million vs GTA 5.6 million so we should get 9.8 billion) or have a referendum to separate from Ontario. It would be a drastic but necessary move.

[rocketphish]

Downtown residents, business owners slam collapse of interprovincial bridge plan

By Derek Spalding, OTTAWA CITIZEN June 28, 2013 12:11 PM

OTTAWA — Truck traffic clogging Ottawa’s core will only get worse without a new interprovincial bridge linking the region to Gatineau, says an alliance of downtown business owners and residents.The group is appalled by the collapse of a plan for a new bridge across Kettle Island intended to connect the Aviation Parkway with Montée Paiement, a $1.16-billion route that had been recommended as the best solution.

In a statement Friday, the Alliance for the Removal of Trucks from Downtown Ottawa called for politicians to proceed with that plan.

“The selection of the Kettle Island corridor brings our downtown closer to a solution to the 50-year-old problem of dangerous and development-stifling transport trucks moving through the downtown of Canada’s capital,” the group wrote. “This new bridge will promote growth, save lives, and help Ottawa-Gatineau to flourish for decades.”

King Edward Avenue, which connects to Quebec’s Autoroute 5 via the Macdonald-Cartier Bridge, is particularly congested, the group believes.

But local opposition to the bridge in Ottawa’s eastern communities won the political battle last week when the Ontario government announced it would not support the Kettle Island crossing.

It has been chosen as the best option in research backed by the National Capital Commission and the transportation ministries of both Ontario and Quebec. But with the loss of provincial support, NCC board members threw their hands in the air at a meeting Thursday saying they now don’t know how to proceed with the project despite having spent nearly $7 million on the latest plan.

More to come.

dspalding@ottawacitizen.com

twitter.com/Derek_Spalding

© Copyright (c) The Ottawa Citizen

Read more: http://www.ottawacitizen.com/Downtow...#ixzz2XXGWIYIz

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by khabibulin

A couple of concerns I have with this argument:

1) Is ther a proven need for another bridge between Hawkesbury and the Macdonald -Cartier?

2) If there is a need, why would you build another bridge only 5 km's from the Macdonald-Cartier? If you did that, people would argue that there is no bridge between Kettle Island and Hawkesbury, a distance of close to 95 km.

The most important part of my argument is not the distance to Hawkesbury, it has to do with the fact that more than 50% of the population of Gatineau and a quarter to a third or the population of Ottawa live to the east of the M-C bridge, and all of these people if they want to cross the river to get to another part of the metro area have to go all the way into downtown to do so.

[J.OT13]

The NCC should change their motto to "No Compromise".

NCC board scoffs at tunnel, firm on bridge option

The option of building a truck-diverting tunnel through Ottawa instead of an interprovincial bridge is being dismissed as a loony idea, despite some city councillors recently calling on the National Capital Commission to take it seriously.

This isn’t about building a tunnel under the Ottawa River, since that still wouldn’t solve the problem of big rigs rumbling through Lowertown.

The idea — and it’s been bandied about for more than a decade as the city examines how to ease traffic on King Edward Ave. — is to build a tunnel between the existing Macdonald-Cartier Bridge and Hwy. 417.

Comments made by one NCC official during this week’s board meeting made it clear a tunnel plan won’t see the light of day.

Fred Gaspar, the NCC’s director of federal transportation coordination, called the tunnel idea “simplistic vision” that doesn’t address a core issue of dwindling capacity to move traffic between the two provinces.

The problem, Gaspar told board members, has been “glossed over.”

One of the major concerns about a tunnel centres on safety, especially if trucks are carrying hazardous goods in a confined space.

During an Ottawa transportation committee meeting three weeks ago, councillors started warming up to the tunnel option as they heard east-end residents slam a proposed interprovincial bridge at Kettle Island.

The local group Sustainable Solutions has also been lobbying to get the tunnel option back on the radar after it was screened out early in the environmental assessment.

The public at the time asked about two tunnel possibilities: One between the Macdonald-Cartier Bridge and the Vanier Pkwy. and another between the bridge and Hwy. 417 at Nicholas St., under Lowertown.

The 2012 cost estimates range from $108 million to $320 million.

The NCC-preferred interprovincial bridge option at Kettle Island, which is just north of the Aviation Pkwy., would cost more than $1 billion.

NCC consultants concluded a tunnel through Ottawa still doesn’t help the inevitable congestion on the Macdonald-Cartier Bridge.

On top of that, the city has just started building a tunnel between Bronson Ave. and Nicholas St. as part of its $2.1-billion LRT line.

The LRT tunnel would be a barrier.

The NCC board has decided to shelve the bridge study because the Ontario government pulled its support for a new crossing.

Meanwhile, Rideau-Vanier Coun. Mathieu Fleury has sent a letter to Ontario Transportation Minister Glen Murray asking for a meeting to sort out the problem of truck traffic cutting through his ward.

jon.willing@sunmedia.ca

Twitter: @JonathanWilling

http://www.ottawasun.com/2013/06/28/...-bridge-option

Lets look at their arguments;

1.address a core issue of dwindling capacity to move traffic between the two provinces

As far as I can tell, the MacDonald Cartier bridge does not have a capacity problem. The problem lies on King Eds where we have huge trucks. They block the street trying to turn onto Rideau, they have slow acceleration so on and so fort. The multiple traffic lights and crosswalks are also a pretty big issue. The tunnel would solve all of it.

2. trucks are carrying hazardous goods

If we have too, we can keep them on the street. I can`t imagine they represent such a big proportion of trucks.

3. The LRT tunnel would be a barrier

We can't build super imposed tunnels! , we must go back in time and warn Montreal, Toronto, Vancouver, New York, Boston, London, Paris...

[Ottawa superman]

Originally Posted by J.OT13

Too bad they didn't back down in the early 90s before spending millions on studies.

The study was started in 2006.

Originally Posted by Capital Shaun

The city and province could have also said no earlier too.

Then we wouldn't know the result of the study. Beside, the NCC logic, we just spend a million dollar studying an bridge, might a well spend a billion to build it, even if it will not fix the trucks in downtown problem.

Originally Posted by Capital Shaun

This is why I hate most politicians. They always think short term (ie. the next election or two). So they don't want Kettle Island for XYZ reasons. OK, then which option(s) is Ottawa & Ontario recommending? Apparently none. Glad I don't live in Lower Town.

Politician represent their constituent, who hold them accountable every elections. On the other hand, the NCC is not accountable to local populations. No one gets to vote on the NCC CEO or Chairmen.

Originally Posted by J.OT13

The NCC should change their motto to "No Compromise".



http://www.ottawasun.com/2013/06/28/...-bridge-option

Lets look at their arguments;

1.address a core issue of dwindling capacity to move traffic between the two provinces

As far as I can tell, the MacDonald Cartier bridge does not have a capacity problem. The problem lies on King Eds where we have huge trucks. They block the street trying to turn onto Rideau, they have slow acceleration so on and so fort. The multiple traffic lights and crosswalks are also a pretty big issue. The tunnel would solve all of it.

2. trucks are carrying hazardous goods

If we have too, we can keep them on the street. I can`t imagine they represent such a big proportion of trucks.

3. The LRT tunnel would be a barrier

We can't build super imposed tunnels! , we must go back in time and warn Montreal, Toronto, Vancouver, New York, Boston, London, Paris...

Is the dangerous goods in tunnel even true? The only tunnel I know where dangerous goods are banned is Windsor, where a seperate ferry crosses the river

[Ottawa superman]

Originally Posted by J.OT13

Currently it seems that the problem we are trying to solve is the truck traffic downtown. The only permanent solution to this is the tunnel. The Kettle Island bridge would only be an extremely expensive Band-Aid solution. I think the bridge should be built, but in a few decades for vehicular traffic and possibly rapid transit.

As for 50 billion in the GTA, Ottawa should either demand our fair share (NCR on the ON side; 1.1 million vs GTA 5.6 million so we should get 9.8 billion) or have a referendum to separate from Ontario. It would be a drastic but necessary move.

Ottawa separating from Ontario? Are you kidding me? Should Ottawa join Quebec? Do you expect a bridge at Kettle Island to be built if that happens?

[Ottawa superman]

Moving away from the downtown core issue, I wanted to address Champlain Bridge. Now that the city of Gatineau finished the Boulevard des Grives extension to highway 148, I suggest that the city extends the boulevard, as a two-lane roadway to connect with Chemin Aylmer and Champlain Bridge. Much of the traffic on the bridge is due to the T-intersection with Champlain Bridge And Aylmer road. Beside this extension will reduce congestion on St Raymond. We may have to use expropriate land near the edge of the golf course near Aylmer road.

[Dado]

Originally Posted by Ottawa superman

The study was started in 2006.

There was a study back in the 90s, JACPAT or something similar. It was that study that first put the Kettle Island option on the table. The Gréber Plan had a road and rail crossing at one of the Duck Islands.

Is the dangerous goods in tunnel even true? The only tunnel I know where dangerous goods are banned is Windsor, where a seperate ferry crosses the river

The last time I looked, I couldn't find a definitive ban on dangerous goods vehicles in tunnels. It seems to be a case-by-case thing.

And the option need not be a full-fledged tunnel, either. If the route went along the Vanier Parkway in a trench, only entering a tunnel to pass under the Rideau River, the issue would essentially go away.

The Vanier Parkway is attractive for a truck route because it continues on into the Alta Vista industrial area, which is one of the major origins/destinations of NCR interprovincial trucks.

Originally Posted by Ottawa superman

Ottawa separating from Ontario? Are you kidding me? Should Ottawa join Quebec? Do you expect a bridge at Kettle Island to be built if that happens?

I think the idea is that the successor province/territory would then be able to levy income and sales taxes that are currently levied by the Province of Ontario, though we'd have to take along "our" share of Ontario's debt as well.

[Dado]

Originally Posted by Ottawa superman

Moving away from the downtown core issue, I wanted to address Champlain Bridge. Now that the city of Gatineau finished the Boulevard des Grives extension to highway 148, I suggest that the city extends the boulevard, as a two-lane roadway to connect with Chemin Aylmer and Champlain Bridge. Much of the traffic on the bridge is due to the T-intersection with Champlain Bridge And Aylmer road. Beside this extension will reduce congestion on St Raymond. We may have to use expropriate land near the edge of the golf course near Aylmer road.

Expropriate through a golf course? Sacrilege! I suppose you could tunnel under part of the golf course (have a transparent roof filled with water ) and maybe Alymer Rd itself.

But frankly just putting in a flyover of Boulevard Lucerne with a half diamond interchange would probably fix most of the problem at the north end of the bridge.

[Capital Shaun]

Originally Posted by Ottawa superman

Politician represent their constituent, who hold them accountable every elections. On the other hand, the NCC is not accountable to local populations. No one gets to vote on the NCC CEO or Chairmen.

Thanks for the civics lesson. What was your point?

[lrt's friend]

The NCC represents the federal government, just like the Ottawa Planning Department represents the municipal government. Any decision made by the NCC in the matter of a bridge will have the support of federal politicians when it is approved. Therefore, there is still political accountability.

[YOWetal]

Originally Posted by lrt's friend

The NCC represents the federal government, just like the Ottawa Planning Department represents the municipal government. Any decision made by the NCC in the matter of a bridge will have the support of federal politicians when it is approved. Therefore, there is still political accountability.

Exactly. In this case Baird is the one with the power over the NCC and it happens to be his riding that will largely be the route for the western extension.

The question is does the city now kill the route and switch to going east or south, and if it threatens to do this would there be political pressure in the riding for or against this decsion.

[J.OT13]

Originally Posted by Ottawa superman

Ottawa separating from Ontario? Are you kidding me? Should Ottawa join Quebec? Do you expect a bridge at Kettle Island to be built if that happens?

Become our own Province (or Federal District). We would be the 6th most populous Province (5th if we could convince a few other cities to join) and the smallest and densest province. Financially, it makes perfect sense.

It would be much easier to choose, afford and build a solution to the truck problem by cutting out one or two governmental obstacles. Maybe even a third if we could include a second question in the referendum asking to abolish the NCC and take over all assets and expenses.

Of course there is the question of "our share" of the debt, although likely none of it actually benefited us.


BTW, Baird has been pretty quiet about the whole western ORT extension. Also hasn't been in the news a whole lot recently. What's up with that?

[Schattenjager]

Originally Posted by J.OT13

Baird has been pretty quiet about the whole western ORT extension. Also hasn't been in the news a whole lot recently. What's up with that?

There's been lots of talk in the news about a possible cabinet shuffle so maybe someone else will be re-assigned to look over the NCC.

[YOWetal]

Originally Posted by Schattenjager

There's been lots of talk in the news about a possible cabinet shuffle so maybe someone else will be re-assigned to look over the NCC.

Not sure who that could be? Unless the idea would be to have someone from Alberta etc. responsible.