HomeDiagramsDatabaseMapsForum About
     

Go Back   SkyscraperPage Forum > Regional Sections > Canada


Reply

 
Thread Tools Display Modes
     
     
  #381  
Old Posted Sep 23, 2020, 5:40 PM
Nouvellecosse's Avatar
Nouvellecosse Nouvellecosse is offline
Volatile Pacivist
 
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: Nova Scotia
Posts: 9,048
Quote:
Originally Posted by MonctonRad View Post

Improvements can be made, but there are a lot of urban elitist snobs on this forum who think that anyone who does not want to live in a tiny downtown condo is nothing more than a Neanderthal and a "breeder" who should be called out and castigated within an inch of his/her life...………..
I actually don't think that that's true at all. I think that's 90% people being overly sensitive of any (real or perceived) criticism of their lifestyle.

For example, I don't think anyone who is promoting sustainable development expects an entire metro area to be the city's downtown. That wouldn't even make sense because the downtown is the center of a city that makes up a small proportion of the whole and generally is as much or more focused on non-residential uses (offices, retail, institutional etc.) as on housing. But statements like "We can't all live in a downtown condo" are often used in rebuttals as a way to caricature the opposing position as something extreme and impractical which is common when someone doesn't like the actual opposing position despite it being too sound to refuse directly.

What advocates of sustainable development actually want is for all neighbourhoods - downtown and otherwise - to simply be more sustainable and efficient. That involves many of the things that you mentioned such as making them more walkable and better connected by transit. But there is one thing that is inescapable which is that for the most part, designing things in a way that makes them inviting/convenient for cars also makes them less inviting/convenient/safe for transit and active transportation

Fortunately, people don't really need to give up the things that you mention in order to live in a more sustainable setting. For instance, most houses in urban/semi-urban Halifax have backyards. Areas like this or this are green, quiet, and have parking either on-street or in a side alley driveway allowing the residents to all have cars if they want them. But they're on the street grid rather than in curvy culs-de-sac, are smaller, and occupy less land than modern low density sprawl. There's nothing about the things that you mention people wanting which would prevent outer neighbourhoods from being designed more like this. In fact, when these streets and lots were developed they were outer areas.

Bottom line for me is that, I'm tired of people saying "Oh well some people want this" and "Some people don't want that" as a way to defend the status quo despite it being clear that things need to change. Yes we always need to consider what people want when designing a neighbourhood, but at a societal level we must design within our means (aka build what can be sustained long term both economically and environmentally). Just like it isn't an excuse for an individual to over-extend their budget when buying a car by saying "Well, I only really like exotic sports cars" there's no excuse for society to overextend its budget when designing communities. Society, like an individual person, should always endeavor toward the most enjoyable thing it/they can actually afford.
__________________
"The reasonable man adapts himself to the world; the unreasonable one persists in trying to adapt the world to himself. Therefore all progress depends on the unreasonable man." - George Bernard Shaw
Don't ask people not to debate a topic. Just stop making debatable assertions. Problem solved.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #382  
Old Posted Sep 23, 2020, 5:46 PM
Nouvellecosse's Avatar
Nouvellecosse Nouvellecosse is offline
Volatile Pacivist
 
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: Nova Scotia
Posts: 9,048
Quote:
Originally Posted by someone123 View Post

Another phenomenon I experienced in Amsterdam was getting "caught" taking transit around rush hour but it was really pleasant and functional compared to Vancouver or Toronto. Maybe I was there on unusually quiet days or something. Could it be that they just have enough capacity that they're not at crush loads on normal days?
I wonder if part of it is that in Europe the CBDs are more diffuse? In Canada the downtowns cover a smaller area than the city centres than in a similar-sized urban area but they're often packed very tight with office skyscrapers. Meanwhile, our inner city density tends to drop off a cliff upon leaving downtown so there aren't as many people living in close enough proximity for active transportation.
__________________
"The reasonable man adapts himself to the world; the unreasonable one persists in trying to adapt the world to himself. Therefore all progress depends on the unreasonable man." - George Bernard Shaw
Don't ask people not to debate a topic. Just stop making debatable assertions. Problem solved.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #383  
Old Posted Sep 23, 2020, 5:55 PM
JHikka's Avatar
JHikka JHikka is offline
ハルウララ
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: Toronto
Posts: 12,853
Quote:
Originally Posted by rousseau View Post
I'm as contemptuous of suburbia as anyone, but these are extravagant claims that are demonstrably untrue.
There's been plenty of work done outlining the mental and physical health related issues of sitting in cars during commutes, living in auto-dependent neighbourhoods without nearby amenities and services, and separating from others nearby.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nouvellecosse View Post
I wonder if part of it is that in Europe the CBDs are more diffuse?
I would agree with this in general, though I took the Underground in London during weekday rush hour and got crushed pretty good on one of their lines.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #384  
Old Posted Sep 23, 2020, 6:03 PM
someone123's Avatar
someone123 someone123 is offline
hähnchenbrüstfiletstüc
 
Join Date: Nov 2001
Location: Vancouver
Posts: 33,694
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nouvellecosse View Post
I wonder if part of it is that in Europe the CBDs are more diffuse? In Canada the downtowns cover a smaller area than the city centres than in a similar-sized urban area but they're often packed very tight with office skyscrapers. Meanwhile, our inner city density tends to drop off a cliff upon leaving downtown so there aren't as many people living in close enough proximity for active transportation.
I think that is part of it. Amsterdam is dense overall but the densest central area has a lower density of commuters than Toronto or Vancouver, or much smaller Canadian cities for that matter. I would guess that commuting patterns in Amsterdam are more diffuse, although it does have a central train station where the metro and main rail lines converge.

Canada has been shifting away from the CBD model for a while.

Quote:
Originally Posted by JHikka View Post
I would agree with this in general, though I took the Underground in London during weekday rush hour and got crushed pretty good on one of their lines.
There's a lot of variety around Europe. I am not sure London or the UK are near the top for transportation.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #385  
Old Posted Sep 23, 2020, 6:13 PM
isaidso isaidso is offline
The New Republic
 
Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: United Provinces of America
Posts: 10,804
Quote:
Originally Posted by milomilo View Post
Anywhere. I guarantee you that the working class plebs in the UK would be delighted to replace their cramped hovel with something like what you posted. If they could have a big SUV or two to go along with it, even better.

Honestly I really think some people in Canada have wildly inaccurate ideas of how people in other countries live. And the standard quality of the average house.
Agree 100%. Most Canadians don't know how good they have it. They get tiny snap shots of life overseas and think that everyone lives like that. I hate those 'plastic' cookie cutter homes in Vaughan but I've traveled enough to know (I'm British by birth and lived there for 13 years) that I'd take it over the British version 7 days/week. It's not even close.

Quote:
Originally Posted by SignalHillHiker View Post
They’re just so ugly. Cheap, gluttonous.
Sure but go live in typical British housing for a few years. You'll change your view in a hurry. Cute and quaint only go so far and eventually take a back seat to space, functionality, and comfort. Most British housing is utter garbage: cramped tiny everything, creaking pipes, creaking floors, little/no insulation, no HVAC systems, thin walls, damp, dark, gloomy, etc. That's how most Brits live.

Vaughan may not be pretty (I don't like them either) but we shouldn't be so blind to its positive attributes. We're really talking about aesthetics. At the end of the day it's the bones of a house that matter.
__________________
World's First Documented Baseball Game: Beachville, Ontario, June 4th, 1838.
World's First Documented Gridiron Game: University College, Toronto, November 9th, 1861.
Hamilton Tiger-Cats since 1869 & Toronto Argonauts since 1873: North America's 2 oldest pro football teams

Last edited by isaidso; Sep 23, 2020 at 6:31 PM.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #386  
Old Posted Sep 23, 2020, 6:13 PM
goodgrowth goodgrowth is online now
Registered User
 
Join Date: Mar 2010
Posts: 2,169
Cars/traffic being bad for health doesn't mean living in a dense urban environment is good for health. We associate one with the other because of the way our cities are designed but don't conflate the two.

Best overall is probably well planned mixed low/mid-density environments that are designed with walking/biking and public transport and some green space in mind. A lot to ask for I know...
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #387  
Old Posted Sep 23, 2020, 6:58 PM
rousseau's Avatar
rousseau rousseau is offline
Registered Drug User
 
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: Southern Ontario
Posts: 8,119
Quote:
Originally Posted by JHikka View Post
There's been plenty of work done outlining the mental and physical health related issues of sitting in cars during commutes, living in auto-dependent neighbourhoods without nearby amenities and services, and separating from others nearby.
The suggestion is that the suburban lifestyle leads to these ills and that these metrics are all worse in comparison with the North American lifestyle prior to the rise of suburbia (essentially, prewar), but there is no way to compare the two, and confounding factors jump out all over the place when you try.

Just one example: You can't pin the obesity epidemic on suburban living. It seems much more likely that it's a combination of food availability and insidious ingredients together with more sedentary lifestyles. Obesity and its attendant health complications are a problem to varying degrees everywhere there is wealth, but it seems as if rates in countries with stronger i.e. more conservative culinary traditions are lower.

I wouldn't be surprised if you could track increasing rates of childhood obesity with the decline in homecooked meals eaten together as a family and the rise of video games over the past four decades.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #388  
Old Posted Sep 23, 2020, 7:54 PM
Nouvellecosse's Avatar
Nouvellecosse Nouvellecosse is offline
Volatile Pacivist
 
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: Nova Scotia
Posts: 9,048
Quote:
Originally Posted by isaidso View Post
Agree 100%. Most Canadians don't know how good they have it. They get tiny snap shots of life overseas and think that everyone lives like that. I hate those 'plastic' cookie cutter homes in Vaughan but I've traveled enough to know (I'm British by birth and lived there for 13 years) that I'd take it over the British version 7 days/week. It's not even close.



Sure but go live in typical British housing for a few years. You'll change your view in a hurry. Cute and quaint only go so far and eventually take a back seat to space, functionality, and comfort. Most British housing is utter garbage: cramped tiny everything, creaking pipes, creaking floors, little/no insulation, no HVAC systems, thin walls, damp, dark, gloomy, etc. That's how most Brits live.

Vaughan may not be pretty (I don't like them either) but we shouldn't be so blind to its positive attributes. We're really talking about aesthetics. At the end of the day it's the bones of a house that matter.
As much as I hate ugly buildings and cityscapes, i have to agree. While aesthetics is an important aspect of life it's just one aspect among many.
__________________
"The reasonable man adapts himself to the world; the unreasonable one persists in trying to adapt the world to himself. Therefore all progress depends on the unreasonable man." - George Bernard Shaw
Don't ask people not to debate a topic. Just stop making debatable assertions. Problem solved.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #389  
Old Posted Sep 23, 2020, 8:14 PM
Proof Sheet Proof Sheet is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: May 2009
Posts: 2,860
Quote:
Originally Posted by lio45 View Post
One thing that fascinates me in Europe (actually, I should say France since that's where all my examples are from) is how good they are (or at least, that's my impression) at limiting sprawl compared to us.
https://goo.gl/maps/AdZDW59Wvtkou9EG9

You were saying

https://goo.gl/maps/4WGZnzE9gUrywvzc8 However, Spain has some doozies as well...the infamous urbanización areas that are in many resort areas of Spain.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #390  
Old Posted Sep 23, 2020, 9:36 PM
milomilo milomilo is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Dec 2013
Location: Calgary
Posts: 10,499
Europe has sprawl, it just looks different.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #391  
Old Posted Sep 23, 2020, 10:53 PM
someone123's Avatar
someone123 someone123 is offline
hähnchenbrüstfiletstüc
 
Join Date: Nov 2001
Location: Vancouver
Posts: 33,694
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nouvellecosse View Post
As much as I hate ugly buildings and cityscapes, i have to agree. While aesthetics is an important aspect of life it's just one aspect among many.
Sometimes there is a heavy trade-off but other times we get uglier stuff for little to no reason. Most commonly I think the problem is that one person pays the cost and decides what to build while different people who have no say are affected by the slightly nicer or worse looking environment. A classic example is an absentee landlord who doesn't care how good a property looks; they just want to maximize rent minus maintenance costs.

In many Canadian cities I think we could nudge property owners and landlords to a slightly different arrangement where they'd spend just a little more but the outcome would be a lot nicer. Examples are planting some trees in parking lots or using something other than vinyl siding.

From what I know about municipal politics at least Halifax there is very little of this. Either something gets ignored totally or it becomes an issue when a site is spectacularly bad. The city will pay hundreds of thousands or millions for dealing with the seriously bad stuff but has no particular plan to nudge the little stuff from being slightly ugly to being a bit nicer. The little stuff probably has more impact on the day-to-day lives of a larger number of people.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #392  
Old Posted Sep 23, 2020, 11:25 PM
davee930's Avatar
davee930 davee930 is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Posts: 1,735
Quote:
Originally Posted by someone123 View Post
Sometimes there is a heavy trade-off but other times we get uglier stuff for little to no reason. Most commonly I think the problem is that one person pays the cost and decides what to build while different people who have no say are affected by the slightly nicer or worse looking environment. A classic example is an absentee landlord who doesn't care how good a property looks; they just want to maximize rent minus maintenance costs.

In many Canadian cities I think we could nudge property owners and landlords to a slightly different arrangement where they'd spend just a little more but the outcome would be a lot nicer. Examples are planting some trees in parking lots or using something other than vinyl siding.

From what I know about municipal politics at least Halifax there is very little of this. Either something gets ignored totally or it becomes an issue when a site is spectacularly bad. The city will pay hundreds of thousands or millions for dealing with the seriously bad stuff but has no particular plan to nudge the little stuff from being slightly ugly to being a bit nicer. The little stuff probably has more impact on the day-to-day lives of a larger number of people.
Yeah I'm not asking for much. Sure the floorplans and structures are nice in Canada. Would it be that crazy to outlaw vinyl siding at least? Nobody can see what's inside the house but everyone sees the outside.

Even an ugly building gets a pass with decent materials.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #393  
Old Posted Sep 24, 2020, 1:07 AM
Architype's Avatar
Architype Architype is online now
♒︎ Empirically Canadian
 
Join Date: Mar 2004
Location: 🍁 Canada
Posts: 11,978
Quote:
Originally Posted by JHikka View Post
There's been plenty of work done outlining the mental and physical health related issues of sitting in cars during commutes, living in auto-dependent neighbourhoods without nearby amenities and services, and separating from others nearby.
...
Yes that is pretty much what I meant in my comment. We have been so willfully ignorant and complacent in normalizing these compounding effects that it can easily be seen as irony or satire.

Last edited by Architype; Sep 24, 2020 at 4:33 AM.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #394  
Old Posted Sep 24, 2020, 1:29 AM
MonctonRad's Avatar
MonctonRad MonctonRad is online now
Wildcats Rule!!
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: Moncton NB
Posts: 34,520
Quote:
Originally Posted by davee930 View Post
Yeah I'm not asking for much. Sure the floorplans and structures are nice in Canada. Would it be that crazy to outlaw vinyl siding at least? Nobody can see what's inside the house but everyone sees the outside.

Even an ugly building gets a pass with decent materials.
Vinyl siding has been banned on new construction in the downtown core of Moncton for about a decade. Outside of the downtown limits however it is still a free for all.
__________________
Go 'Cats Go
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #395  
Old Posted Sep 24, 2020, 1:47 AM
davee930's Avatar
davee930 davee930 is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Posts: 1,735
Quote:
Originally Posted by MonctonRad View Post
Vinyl siding has been banned on new construction in the downtown core of Moncton for about a decade. Outside of the downtown limits however it is still a free for all.
Yeah that's the problem. Outside of inner cities, there's beautiful nature littered with the architectural equivalent of Tupperware. Works well, looks like shit.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #396  
Old Posted Sep 24, 2020, 4:02 AM
Mister F Mister F is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jun 2004
Posts: 2,846
Quote:
Originally Posted by rousseau View Post
The suggestion is that the suburban lifestyle leads to these ills and that these metrics are all worse in comparison with the North American lifestyle prior to the rise of suburbia (essentially, prewar), but there is no way to compare the two, and confounding factors jump out all over the place when you try.
The suggestion is that these metrics are worse in communities that are car-oriented and better in communities that are pedestrian-oriented. People who live in the latter get more exercise as part of their day to day lives than the former. This results in better overall heath on average.

Rates of obesity, diabetes lower in neighborhoods that are more walkable
Quote:
Urban neighborhoods in Ontario, Canada, that were characterized by more walkable design were associated with decreased prevalence of overweight and obesity and decreased incidence of diabetes between 2001 and 2012, according to a study appearing in the May 24/31 issue of JAMA.
Community design, street networks, and public health
Quote:
The results suggest that more compact and connected street networks with fewer lanes on the major roads are correlated with reduced rates of obesity, diabetes, high blood pressure, and heart disease among residents.

Quote:
Originally Posted by rousseau View Post
Just one example: You can't pin the obesity epidemic on suburban living.
In part, yes you can. There are other causes as well, obviously.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #397  
Old Posted Sep 24, 2020, 4:57 AM
Ifactwo Ifactwo is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Sep 2017
Posts: 65
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sarah89 View Post
What are your gripes. Things that could be improved and what do you think Canada is currently doing well?
its employment is something that is canada is really good at
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #398  
Old Posted Sep 24, 2020, 4:58 AM
Ifactwo Ifactwo is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Sep 2017
Posts: 65
Im happy for canada and for its people
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #399  
Old Posted Dec 23, 2020, 11:14 PM
biguc's Avatar
biguc biguc is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Mar 2003
Location: pinkoland
Posts: 11,677
The Conbots are ruining this board again and making me embarrassed for Canada.
__________________
no
Reply With Quote
     
     
End
 
 
Reply

Go Back   SkyscraperPage Forum > Regional Sections > Canada
Forum Jump


Thread Tools
Display Modes

Forum Jump


All times are GMT. The time now is 1:54 PM.

     
SkyscraperPage.com - Archive - Privacy Statement - Top

Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.