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  #61  
Old Posted May 10, 2019, 10:43 PM
hamilton23 hamilton23 is offline
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Originally Posted by Chronamut View Post
Unfortunately the stigma of hamilton will always exist as long as the only view of hamilton people see going over the skyway bridge is of the factories - these people don't do their research to see what else hamilton has to offer - first impressions are everything - so you can spruce up the city all you want - as long as this truth remains, that stigma will never go away.

And maybe it's partially good that it doesn't - if people are that quick to turn up their nose at our city, do we really want those types of people living here..? Do we want people coming here that look down on factory workers and industry?
Part of the stigma is the way our Downtown currently looks compared to the downtowns in neighboring cities in the province. It's not all about the factories. I'm sure that plays a small factor for some people when forming a view of Hamilton, but a lot of it has to do with the actual Downtown. It's come a long way and gets better every single day.

I think the stigma is fading, actually. I speak to professionals from across the province on a regular basis and whenever they visit the city after not visiting for several years, they're incredibly impressed with everything they see. They also realize that the stigma that was present 10 years ago isn't the same as it was back then.

We're in a beautiful time for the City of Hamilton. I'm happy to see this development Under Construction.
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  #62  
Old Posted May 10, 2019, 10:51 PM
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No man, it has a LOT to do with how people who have never actually gone through hamilton view it - of all the people I have spoken to that have never gone through hamilton and only seen it from the skyway bridge - 100% of them said it was because of the view of the factories that they had that perception of the city - it's huge, and you don't have to go THROUGH hamilton, to go BY hamilton.

The other stuff plays a role as well, but for those that make a blanket assumption, the factories are 100% the reason.

Sorry man, don't mean to argue but I really did want to drive this point home, because it's something that I have constantly been barraged with by others growing up. As someone who has lived here my whole life it's still a big issue for the perception of our city from those who know nothing about our city.
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  #63  
Old Posted May 10, 2019, 11:00 PM
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we have 800 acres of prime and vacant waterfront in need of a plan and a new life. Perhaps some consortium (P3) could actually change what everyone sees as the zip along the skyway.
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  #64  
Old Posted May 10, 2019, 11:05 PM
hamilton23 hamilton23 is offline
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Originally Posted by Chronamut View Post
No man, it has a LOT to do with how people who have never actually gone through hamilton view it - of all the people I have spoken to that have never gone through hamilton and only seen it from the skyway bridge - 100% of them said it was because of the view of the factories that they had that perception of the city - it's huge, and you don't have to go THROUGH hamilton, to go BY hamilton.

The other stuff plays a role as well, but for those that make a blanket assumption, the factories are 100% the reason.

Sorry man, don't mean to argue but I really did want to drive this point home, because it's something that I have constantly been barraged with by others growing up. As someone who has lived here my whole life it's still a big issue for the perception of our city from those who know nothing about our city.

We can agree to disagree. I don't disagree about the factories being a factor for people forming a stigma when driving by Hamilton, but a lot of people actually come into the city for visits and have formed their opinions based on several other factors besides the factories. I agree that they do play a factor, but you also can't say that factories are the one and only factor for the negative stigma many people still have of our city. It's just not the case.
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  #65  
Old Posted May 11, 2019, 12:18 AM
ZTrade ZTrade is offline
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Originally Posted by King&James View Post
we have 800 acres of prime and vacant waterfront in need of a plan and a new life. Perhaps some consortium (P3) could actually change what everyone sees as the zip along the skyway.
I was under the impression Stelco went ahead and purchased those lands. They'll probably expand their operations or sit on it and flip right? Or lease some of the land to the city?
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  #66  
Old Posted May 11, 2019, 12:22 AM
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It depends on your views.

For decades, Hamilton residents complained about the lack of high-end residential projects in Downtown Hamilton. Those people lived on the Mountain, Stoney Creek, Ancaster, Dundas, etc and only came down if they worked Downtown or if they had to for any other reason. Otherwise, those people avoided Downtown completely.

Then you have the people who live in the rest of the GTA who immediately cringe when you tell them you're from Hamilton.

It's a stigma that has existed for decades and it still exists presently.

This is an example of a development that contributes to changing that stigma for the better. It also symbolizes the growth of our city.

Does there have to be more affordable and city housing? 110%. I see both sides of the argument, but I also love seeing neighborhoods that used to be in shambles slowly get resurrected and start to look appealing again or even for the first time.

It's a double-edged sword. I do think the City is thinking about affordable housing and they're making efforts to get more built. I also think they realize that we have only scratched the surface in terms of breaking the negative stigma some have of Hamilton still and are encouraging more developments like this to be constructed as well.
I agree, it depends on how you view things (and, honestly, your opinion on markets in general).

Let's take the "Housing for people, not for profit". My view is that these aren't mutually exclusive. Ultimately, developers only make a profit if the units are bought (or rented). Developers aren't holding units hostage to drive up prices, it's in their economic interest that they sell as many units as possible, rather than keep them as an empty liability. Of course, there are people with purist views that all housing should be built by the government because then there would be no profit motive, but I don't subscribe to that outlook.

On the "your profit, our trauma" poster, this development isn't really inflicting trauma unless you're an anti-market-development hardliner. Half of the site was a decrepit house and half of it was an empty lot. Who exactly is suffering here? Of course, if this development was replacing an older apartment complex, for example, there would be more of a case to be made that the development is causing problems for those renters. Ultimately, though, increasing the housing supply is the most basic, necessary policy to protect and enhance affordability.

And on "end the war on the poor", I mean, it depends on how you view things politically, and your opinion on whether development helps or hurts the poor. I certainly believe we can do things to improve life for poorer Hamiltonians, but the evidence shows that new housing and increased supply helps everyone! Stopping development, implementing inclusionary zoning, extracting "community benefits", etc. will not help end the war on the poor, in my personal view.

A healthy housing supply is key to building an economic system that gives everyone, even the most disadvantaged, a chance to get ahead. Part of that solution is ensuring the poorest and worst-off have access to things like affordable housing, and that demand should be met, in my personal opinion, by supply neutral inclusionary zoning which mixes income levels but does not increase the cost of market housing, which is terrible policy for long-term affordability.
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  #67  
Old Posted May 11, 2019, 5:16 AM
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Originally Posted by hamilton23 View Post
We can agree to disagree. I don't disagree about the factories being a factor for people forming a stigma when driving by Hamilton, but a lot of people actually come into the city for visits and have formed their opinions based on several other factors besides the factories. I agree that they do play a factor, but you also can't say that factories are the one and only factor for the negative stigma many people still have of our city. It's just not the case.
We can indeed. And I agree that the people who DO go through the city have as you said formed their opinions based on other things and thus are improving their opinion based on seeing improvements - so we can both be right

As for the poor - we have to tackle what makes them poor, and address that

a) drugs - there is no pure determiner as to what motivates people to go on drugs, as even those with the best family upbringings can degenerate along that line.

b) disability - whether health mental or accident related

c) conning the system - generations of welfare bums

d) thrown out of their housing

e) people who are too poor to get a proper education, or aren't smart enough or have a learning disability - refer to b

f) people who simply don't want to work - this can tie into any of the above. There isn't much one can do about these people.

-----

"Being poor" is a complex issue and obv. there is no clear cut solution. I get the argument that with higher salary people moving into the city the market increases and cost of living increases everywhere, in many cases to unsustainable rates. This only becomes an issue when the jobs provided within the city do not match the rates offered - aka the people can't afford through their work to live in the city. I think that is probably a bigger issue than providing affordable housing - ergo providing affordable jobs to sustain the prices of living in the city - and this is being fed by those who have higher paying jobs outside of the city moving here to commute.

It's a bit of a process - first you have to provide the condos for those higher paying users to live in, then you have to provide the infrastructure to either ferry them from one location to another, or centralize the communities so jobs and living conditions are in the same place, and then you have to provide the jobs here for those higher paying users to actually work at to convince them to not find jobs in toronto. THEN, when those jobs are available, work on increasing the quality of life for the poor for also offering them higher paying jobs within the city.

Ideally condos would have the jobs below and the people working in those jobs living above. Kinda like the old days with the ma and pop shops where they lived upstairs and ran their business downstairs. Then you'd eliminate transportation needs. You'd have amenities for them either in the same building or close by forming community blocks. This is easier said than done though, and a detriment of this can be silo communities where nobody wants to travel anywhere within the city. Thus a better solution is for all community amenities that can't be found elsewhere in the city to be in the core and to motivate people to travel down there for big events - festivals theaters entertainment etc, while providing local amenities grocery stores clothes shopping coffee shops etc somewhat nearby.

A lot of the issues above all stem from the inability to find high enough paying work.

-----

People become depressed at their harsh existence and turn to drugs for solace or for an easy way to make cash by selling it. Or they work multiple jobs and ruin their health, or they expose themselves to chemicals doing dangerous jobs that pay high but are high risk. People become disillusioned with working if no amt of working is going to give them a comfortable existence, and if they can just con the system and live off welfare, which creates slums which drives middle class people out thus increasing the slums, and this forms generational welfare families that simply don't want to work.

So providing seas of "affordable housing" (aka lower value housing) is just going to create slum communities - we need to make the condos be affordable by providing jobs that make them affordable - the real issue here is providing these people with meaningful employment, otherwise you simply enable the poverty and wrap it in a band-aid. Look at the richer cities around us. They have less poverty because they have better jobs, and better opportunities for jobs. I am not saying affordable housing is bad in theory - but the reason it is needed is the problem. Obv. we need it for now until we can directly address the poverty problem itself.

Provide the schooling, the post secondary education incentive, where the things they take in school will actually lead to jobs they can find within the city that pay enough to allow them to live here comfortably, and you will find the drugs decrease, the poverty decreases, and the types of people you see here improve. People want better opportunities, because a lot of people have simply given up on life.

-----

We lost a lot of our industry and centralized core living when those businesses moved away/went out of business/were bought out, and when the core suburbanized and local ma and pa shops/small theatres were replaced by malls/big box stores and theatres. We need to figure out what to replace it with that adheres to the above. Art does not put food on the table, and not everyone can afford (or is smart enough) to work in the medical field, of which hamilton thankfully has a large presence with mcmaster.

We need to think of what kind of businesses we WANT to put in these base condos that don't just focus on what it is people want to go to, but what will provide sustainable living wages for people who want to work in the core. Starbucks isn't going to pay you enough to live in these condos. Nor would a winners or home outfitters.

So lets brainstorm as to what pays high wages:

1) medical field - doctors nurses etc

2) government - city, lawyers, judges, banks, employment and civil services etc

3) builders - masons architects technologists planners etc

4) tech - software, hardware, apps, phones, programming, videogame production, graphic design, telecommunications etc

5) city-oriented: firefighters, police

6) manufacturing - factories, etc.

7) entertainment(sometimes) - film, recording, acting, music, radio, etc.

8) education - teachers, supervisers etc

9) food owners - restaurants, bakeries, etc

10) protection - military navy airforce etc

and of course all the higher levels of the above - managers, ceos supervisers, business owner, etc.

-----

and what DOESN'T pay high wages

1) cash loan places

2) coffee shops

3) retail (winners, urban outfitters, mall, etc)

4) fast food & food employees (restaurants, bakeries fast food etc)

5) gaming - working in arcades/gaming stores "gaming for a living" etc

6) repair shops - electronic, car, etc

Start to see the problem here? All the things that all of you find "convenient" to go to in a city core - restaurants, clothing stores, coffee shops, don't provide living wages to actually afford to live in the city close to those places in the core. Thus places need to be provided that allow for affordability within the downtown, much like it was in the old days, where the people who worked downtown lived downtown - where rent was much cheaper so you could work in a department store, or live close to the factories in which you worked. As it stands if you work in any of those places that provide you with all the conveniences you enjoy, you are doomed to a shitty sub-par life with a low income, living in a sketchy area of town or with multiple people so you can simply afford to pay the rent, or are forced to work 2 or 3 jobs to pay the bills.

Making "affordable housing" simply highlights the stark fact that most of what is in hamilton isn't "affordable" - I mean why do we have to charge so much for people to live down here? Living wages shouldn't be a constant ratio of what you make, because then people never can get ahead - living wages is always x% amt of whatever they make. Maybe there simply needs to be condo or rent living caps. Do you REALLY need to charge 2000 dollars a month for a 2 bedroom? It seems excessive. Sure you CAN but maybe you shouldn't be able to. Maybe the average wage of the citys job market (not of the wages of people living in the city, but of the jobs actually IN the city, to prevent people with say toronto job wages from inflating that) should be a determiner of how high rent prices can be in the city so that those who live in the city can match it. The only issue with that is that people in toronto would flock here and push everyone else out of the city.. buut .. they already do.

As I said, a complex issue.

Last edited by Chronamut; May 11, 2019 at 6:21 AM.
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  #68  
Old Posted May 12, 2019, 2:32 AM
urban_planner urban_planner is offline
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How's this development coming along?!?!
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  #69  
Old Posted May 14, 2019, 5:06 PM
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How's this development coming along?!?!
Agree. Let's keep the discussion about people opinions of Hamilton under General Discussion.
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  #70  
Old Posted May 14, 2019, 5:14 PM
movingtohamilton movingtohamilton is offline
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Agree. Let's keep the discussion about people opinions of Hamilton under General Discussion.
Yes please.
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  #71  
Old Posted May 15, 2019, 3:55 PM
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fair enough!
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  #72  
Old Posted Jun 28, 2019, 3:28 AM
TheRitsman TheRitsman is offline
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Looks like they're starting on this. They've got new equipment on site, looks to be starting foundation. How deep are they digging for this build?
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  #73  
Old Posted Jun 28, 2019, 1:06 PM
HamiltonPlanning HamiltonPlanning is offline
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Looks like they're starting on this. They've got new equipment on site, looks to be starting foundation. How deep are they digging for this build?
Great news!
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  #74  
Old Posted Jul 23, 2019, 11:03 PM
TheRitsman TheRitsman is offline
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Taken yesterday morning
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  #75  
Old Posted Sep 2, 2019, 1:07 PM
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8/28/2019 by Joe, on Flickr
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  #76  
Old Posted Sep 15, 2019, 5:10 AM
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  #77  
Old Posted Sep 19, 2019, 2:22 PM
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How convinient.
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  #78  
Old Posted Oct 13, 2019, 2:41 PM
TheRitsman TheRitsman is offline
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Work on this seems to have stopped over the last 1-2 weeks. I'm assuming they don't have permits for foundations?
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  #79  
Old Posted Jan 3, 2020, 4:41 PM
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12/23/2019 by Joe, on Flickr
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  #80  
Old Posted Jan 3, 2020, 10:59 PM
HamiltonBoyInToronto HamiltonBoyInToronto is offline
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Does anyone know what the heck is going on with this one??? My sister bought here and they keep delaying any news ?
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