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  #61  
Old Posted Jan 26, 2009, 10:14 PM
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So in the end the city will end up getting the tower anyway, but after a long delay and cost to the taxpayer for HRM staff involvement?

Armdale is full of NIMBYs. Mosher seems to have a similar view and, at least, probably wants them to re-elect her. The sad thing, however, is that this isn't even in Armdale. The only people living by this building are those who have recently bought in related developments, both of which included a similar tower component.

There are also two twelve storey towers being proposed a bit farther down NW Arm Drive, and countless similar buildings in Clayton Park.

This is nothing at all unusual for the area, it's just the classic case of fighting for as little development as possible with no real justification and this is why they lose 90% of URB hearings.
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  #62  
Old Posted Jan 26, 2009, 10:16 PM
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What the hell hell: Unbelievable!:
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  #63  
Old Posted Jan 26, 2009, 10:55 PM
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I don't know enough to comment on whether this is a good decision or not (I don't know the area well), but on the face of it, I can't see why allowing more density out in the burbs is a bad thing. Just to wildly speculate for a moment, the city might be playing hardball with this to try and defend their original development agreement. A taller 2nd tower might not really be the issue.
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  #64  
Old Posted Jan 26, 2009, 11:23 PM
worldlyhaligonian worldlyhaligonian is offline
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I can't say I'm suprised by anything anymore.


Between the heritage folks, NIMBYs, and environmentalists, development in Halifax doesn't even appear to be worth it.

So sad.

I wonder if twisted sisters will ever happen.
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  #65  
Old Posted Jan 27, 2009, 2:09 AM
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I don't understand... how can they appeal this far into the game? Are the two towers considered separate projects? Can they really launch an appeal when one tower is done??

Is this a sure thing, or did they just announce that they are planning to appeal? I would have thought we would have heard something about it before they launched an appeal!

After all this talk about how great HRM by Design is because the city wants to speed up the approvals project, and then they do this. They're not practicing what they preach here!
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  #66  
Old Posted Jan 27, 2009, 2:23 AM
worldlyhaligonian worldlyhaligonian is offline
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Because the two towers were under a single development agreement. Technically they are attached at their foundations.

Mosher is being rediculous with this appeal. The urban landscape would be awkward and unfinished in that neighborhood without the other tower...
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  #67  
Old Posted Jan 27, 2009, 3:13 AM
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I thought I read earlier that the 2nd tower was suppose to be smaller but United Gulf applied to ammend the agreement to increase its size and HRM said no. That then led to some silly argument about how the second tower is part of the first because they share a base. Maybe I'm off base here, but that's what I recollect. I tried to find the decision on the URB but it's either not up yet or I'm just not a great researcher

Edit: Found it! Here's the URB decision. I'm going to take a quick look http://www.canlii.org/en/ns/nsuarb/d...nsuarb167.html

Edit, Edit: Okay here's the skinny of how this mess came about from the URB:

[8] The final phase of Stoneridge to be developed is Site C, which is now owned by the Developer. Site C is located in the southern part of Stoneridge, along North West Arm Drive. It is bounded on the three other sides (within Stoneridge) by Osborne Street, Walter Havill Drive and lands adjacent to Hail Pond. The plans annexed to the original development agreement described Site C as being 2.08 hectares in size (i.e., 5.13 acres). However, as a result of the approval of the Seventh Amending Agreement dated April 2, 2007, land equivalent in size to four 4,000 square foot lots was removed from the northern portion of Site C to permit the Developer to build single family dwellings along Walter Havill Drive. As a result, the reduced configuration of Site C, by the Board's estimation, now comprises about 4.76 acres.

[9] The development agreement, both before and after the Seventh Amending Agreement noted in the preceding paragraph, provides for three apartment buildings on Site C with a maximum height of four storeys each, with "the exception that one building may be permitted to be of a height of 12 storeys."

[10] The applications which are the subject of the two appeals herein (i.e., the application for a development permit and the application to amend the development agreement) will, regardless of which alternative the Developer chooses to proceed with, result in only one building being constructed on Site C, i.e., the proposed 12 storey apartment building (with two towers). In such an event, the other two four storey apartment buildings will not be built.

[11] As noted above, the plans attached to the development agreement show three building-shaped icons on Site C. There is an icon showing a 12 storey building on the southern portion of Site C adjacent to North West Arm Drive. There are also two icons on the plans showing two four storey buildings in the northwestern and northeastern portions of Site C.

[12] The proposed 12 storey two tower building proposed by the Developer is shaped like a boomerang. However, the footprint of the proposed 12 storey building extends beyond the 12 storey icon shown on the plan in the development agreement, with one end extending to cover a portion of the icon for the northeastern four storey building.

II HISTORY OF PROCEEDINGS

[13] This matter involves a series of applications by the Developer with respect to the development of a 12 storey structure on Site C.

[14] On March 16, 2006, the Developer first applied to HRM for a development permit for the proposed two tower 12 storey building on a single podium. The application was denied on May 26, 2006, and the Developer did not appeal that decision to the Board.

[15] Following the refusal of a development permit for the proposed two tower 12 storey building on a single podium, the Developer applied on June 29, 2006 for a different two tower building on a single podium. However, in this instance, the application was for a 12 storey tower and a four storey tower. This application was approved on July 26, 2006. The Board notes that the footprint of the foundation for this approved building is identical to the footprint of the proposed two tower 12 storey building which is the subject of the two appeals before the Board.

[16] Construction on the approved 12 storey tower has commenced and, as of the date of the site visits described below in this decision, the 12 storey tower was partially constructed to its full height. While the foundation for the entire building footprint was also completed on the date of the site visits, construction on the four storey tower has not started. The Board infers that the Developer is awaiting the consideration of these appeals by the Board before construction begins on the second tower.

[17] On September 18, 2006, the Developer applied to Community Council to amend the development agreement to permit the construction of the proposed two tower building, with each proposed tower being 12 storeys.

[18] A public information meeting respecting the application was held on November 8, 2006.

[19] A report dated June 5, 2007, (the "Staff Report"), prepared by Richard Harvey, Planner, and submitted by Paul Dunphy, Director of Planning and Development Services for HRM, recommended that the Community Council approve the proposed amendment to the development agreement.

[20] Without holding a public hearing, Community Council refused the amendment of the development agreement at its meeting held on June 18, 2007.

[21] On July 3, 2007, the Appellant appealed to the Board from the decision of Community Council, the grounds of appeal being described as follows:

... the decision of Municipal Council is not reasonably consistent with the intent of the Municipal Planning Strategy. In particular, Council failed to recognize the following:

1. That HRM staff had submitted a report indicating the Amendment of the existing Development Agreement complied with the overall intent and policies of the Municipal Planning Strategy and recommended approval of this amendment.

2. A twelve storey building is already permitted on this site. Council failed to recognize that the Appellant was not creating an additional twelve storey building with this amendment but was instead attempting to modify the footprint of the permitted building thereby eliminating the need to construct two already permitted additional buildings, increasing the available green space, improving setbacks from existing and future housing, increasing available parking and softening impact upon adjacent uses.

3. The proposal would increase underground parking, reduce the demand for surface parking, and by creating a new exit for traffic, substantially reduce the traffic on Walter Havill Drive.

[22] On October 31, 2007, the Appellant resubmitted its application for a development permit. The application was substantively the same as the earlier request for the development permit which had been refused. Andrew Faulkner, Development Officer, refused to issue the development permit by letter dated November 1, 2007. The Appellant appealed to the Board. The ground of appeal stated as follows:

... the decision of the Development Officer does not comply with the Development Agreement.

[23] Both appeals were heard by the Board in the same hearing.


So what's it all mean. To my mind HRM isn't quite as villianous as they first came off. United Gulf has just refused to take a no on this one and have really worked the system. It's really similar to what happened in this same development concerning park space around Hail's Pond. Reading between the lines, I think my earlier hunch that this one has more to do putting United Gulf in their place then whether there is a 2nd twelve storey tower on site or 3 four storey buildings. They probably don't want the logic that it's all one building to hold up either.

Last edited by spaustin; Jan 27, 2009 at 3:50 AM.
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  #68  
Old Posted Jan 27, 2009, 11:03 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by spaustin View Post

So what's it all mean. To my mind HRM isn't quite as villianous as they first came off. United Gulf has just refused to take a no on this one and have really worked the system. It's really similar to what happened in this same development concerning park space around Hail's Pond. Reading between the lines, I think my earlier hunch that this one has more to do putting United Gulf in their place then whether there is a 2nd twelve storey tower on site or 3 four storey buildings. They probably don't want the logic that it's all one building to hold up either.
Not sure if i share the same thoughts as you but this means HRM is taking this to the appeal court of NS and there is a fine line on whether the UARB is wrong or not. What i read UARB decision doesn;t have any faults, and therefore not likely HRM will win.
The costs of this appeal could be high. And today there is news about a 19 storey condo building on bayview, and here we are bitching about two 12 storey buildings?
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  #69  
Old Posted Jan 27, 2009, 5:58 PM
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I didn't mean that HRM should be fighting this. I was just digging a little deeper to try and figure out why HRM is so set on not letting this one pass. Look at the timeline (at least my read of it since it's convoluted),
  • United Gulf applies for two 12 storey buildings on a single podium and is denied
  • United Gulf applies for a four story building on the podium along side the 12 storey building (the podium foot print being completely unchanged). HRM agrees.
  • United Gulf has the first tower well underway but never starts on the smaller 4 storey beyond the podium. United Gulf applies to revive their original plan (their podium works in either option) and is refused.
  • United Gulf appeals on some solid planning grounds (putting two towers there uses less land etc), but also trots out some nonsense technicality logic about it being all one building.
  • HRM loses the appeal at the URB and apppeals to the courts

I can get from this why HRM might be peeved United Gulf just wouldn't accept the no answer and, you could argue, the 4 storey proposal they trotted out was just a ruse to get HRM's approval. Now is it worth appealing an appeal to prove a point and put United Gulf in their place? In this case, I don't think it really is. They should just cut their losses and be ready next time around since, at the end of the day, this doesn't sound like a bad place for a second tower (as opposed to 4 low rises).
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  #70  
Old Posted Jan 27, 2009, 10:19 PM
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Yes. I far as I can see, what we have here is an old-fashioned pissing match. HRM and Mosher are peeved because they think UG is putting one over on them, so regardless of the merits of 2 towers they are fighting against it.

UG decided if they can't get what they originally planned, they would try an appeal..which is fair- perfectly their right, but maybe they mislead the city (a tiny bit) by saying they would change to a 12 and a 4 story tower. Meanwhile, they have been publishing renderings of 2 twelve story towers in the real estate papers for 3 years now. I'm sure HRM have been steaming about that all along, expecting something them to try like this. Now that UG won the appeal, HRM is furious and going after UG like jilted bureaucrats, doing everything they can to stick it to UG.

Its just like when a private home-owner builds a garage or addition without getting a permit, then the city takes them to court and rather than fining the homeowner and letting them keep the addition, makes them tear down the addition- even if the permit would have been a simple rubber stamp.

Nobody wants to be wrong.
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  #71  
Old Posted Jan 29, 2009, 3:49 AM
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reasons

The reason for applying for a permit for a 12 storey and a 4 storey was to get the project started. If they had waited to get the permit for two 12 storey towers they would still be waiting. The project was always planned, applied for and marketed as two 12 storey towers, the problem was with city staff changes and varying interpretations of the rules.
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  #72  
Old Posted Jan 29, 2009, 4:02 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by inside scoop View Post
The reason for applying for a permit for a 12 storey and a 4 storey was to get the project started. If they had waited to get the permit for two 12 storey towers they would still be waiting. The project was always planned, applied for and marketed as two 12 storey towers, the problem was with city staff changes and varying interpretations of the rules.
Welcome "inside_scoop"

And yes I agree with you that they planned all along to have two twelve storey towers on the site. They just simply got them approved the easy way which involved messing around with HRM policy a bit.
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  #73  
Old Posted Mar 23, 2009, 5:15 AM
worldlyhaligonian worldlyhaligonian is offline
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So have we heard anything new on the status of tower 2?
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  #74  
Old Posted Apr 7, 2009, 4:56 PM
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So how is the first tower progressing? It must be close to finished by now.
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  #75  
Old Posted Apr 20, 2009, 1:44 AM
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Here's a pic I got today.

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  #76  
Old Posted Apr 20, 2009, 1:57 AM
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Is that crane for the other one?

It looks okay I guess... really it is just another box in the suburbs.
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  #77  
Old Posted Apr 20, 2009, 2:25 AM
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Looks like an old fashioned 1950's Slab apartment building to me...like the ones that are so common in Toronto...
They just added those cheezy little curved flares on the roof to make it look a little modern and "contemporary"...
man we've come a long way from the '50's!!!..now we have curved flares on our roof's!!....sarcasm aside...
it will look cooler with a second building...
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  #78  
Old Posted Apr 20, 2009, 2:33 AM
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Yeah, I think the big "sail" covers some of the rooftop machinery, but the smaller ones actually create a pretty cool ceiling for those units, adds something a little different. But it is very much just a block building.
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  #79  
Old Posted Apr 20, 2009, 3:18 PM
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If you're going to incorporate a "sail" like element into your building, you should go all the way:

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  #80  
Old Posted Apr 20, 2009, 3:28 PM
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[QUOTE=someone123;4204736]Is that crane for the other one?

QUOTE]

I'm not sure it was hard to tell.
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