Streetcars in Canada

[esquire]

Originally Posted by jamincan

This is a common enough point-of-view, but also an incredibly lazy and useless contribution to the discussion. If this is true, you should be able to back it up. Where do you think this is the case, and what evidence do you have that they didn't do due diligence and consider alternatives?

You show me a new streetcar project and I'll show you one where BRT could have done the job for less. In fact, I'd be curious to know where BRT would have been incapable of handling the traffic that a streetcar line could.

I suppose I could be convinced otherwise, but from what I've seen I'm inclined to agree with ssiguy. There is a somewhat empty, flavour of the month factor with streetcars.

Obviously for European cities with established legacy systems, keeping streetcars/trams makes sense. But I don't see how building one from the ground up makes sense these days.

[jamincan]

Originally Posted by esquire

You show me a new streetcar project and I'll show you one where BRT could have done the job for less. In fact, I'd be curious to know where BRT would have been incapable of handling the traffic that a streetcar line could.

I suppose I could be convinced otherwise, but from what I've seen I'm inclined to agree with ssiguy. There is a somewhat empty, flavour of the month factor with streetcars.

Obviously for European cities with established legacy systems, keeping streetcars/trams makes sense. But I don't see how building one from the ground up makes sense these days.

At least in the case of Ion LRT, when rapid transit was being planned along the central transit corridor, BRT was also studied as an alternative under a number of configurations and those studies showed that its capacity would be exceeded within 10 years of opening, which was the primary justification for recommending LRT over BRT. It's worth noting as well that planning for the central transit corridor started well over a decade prior to the actual preferred form of rapid transit was actual voted on by council.

It is certainly okay to disagree with the results of a study or process, but ssiguy's assertion is that projects like that are principally driven as legacy projects rather than by any planning merits. That's quite different from arguing that other options would have been better and it's a pretty bold assertion that's easy to throw out there, but I would argue doesn't not stand up to scrutiny.

[esquire]

I'm not intimately familiar with Ion LRT but my impression of it is that it is more of a traditional LRT system with multi-car trains, significant stretches of exclusive ROWs and longer distances where LRT makes sense.

When I say "streetcar" I'm thinking of traditional urban streetcar lines like in central Toronto where the streetcar basically runs on street (Queen), or on what essentially amount to reserved lanes (Spadina).

[niwell]

Originally Posted by WhipperSnapper

I appreciate the old streetcar lengths. The new ones are impossible to pass.

I'm no longer in a commuter position so I can't tell if things have changed with the new streetcars. Most people were happy to see a bus replacement show up at their streetcar stop. The whole streetcar would rise in agreement overhearing one of the passengers ask the driver if the bus replacement was permanent. I prefer the smoother ride and open space offered by streetcars. The bus replacement was 20% faster.

Huh, East End perspective I'm guessing?

The bus replacements for College and King were piss slow when I had to use them for occasional commuting. Completely packed by Dufferin and took forever to embark / disembark due to the awkward layout necessitated by low floor accessibility requirements. The only times they were likely faster is late at night or on Sundays when traffic was very light. When they were running occasional buses due to car shortages many people at the stop would wait for a streetcar instead of trying to cram on.

[JHikka]

Originally Posted by niwell

Huh, East End perspective I'm guessing?

The bus replacements for College and King were piss slow when I had to use them for occasional commuting. Completely packed by Dufferin and took forever to embark / disembark due to the awkward layout necessitated by low floor accessibility requirements. The only times they were likely faster is late at night or on Sundays when traffic was very light. When they were running occasional buses due to car shortages many people at the stop would wait for a streetcar instead of trying to cram on.

The buses this summer and fall on Broadview have been awful and infrequent. At least the streetcars were reliable for both time and for space. Same for College when that line was down. Same for when Dundas was down. Streetcars are typically better than buses in almost all categories, IMO.

Originally Posted by rousseau

My impression is that streetcar lines separated from road traffic a la Spadina or any number of European cities are optimal above all else. Nice views, no traffic jams, a smooth ride and a lower deck. What's not to love?

Spadina is really great and St. Clair is pretty good. Rest are occasionally stuck in traffic but still better than bussing.

[niwell]

As a cyclist who's actually injured myself pretty badly on streetcar tracks I still prefer them for cycling as well. The replacement buses would often shove you into the curb without bothering to pay attention. Plus bus drivers tended to accelerate more quickly to pass cyclists who would then be stuck behind as soon as the bus hit traffic a block ahead...

The tracks can be annoying but streetcars stay put.

[Innsertnamehere]

Spadina is good in that it's separated from traffic but it's still painfully slow to use, to the point where I actively avoided using it. Bathurst in mixed traffic gets from King / Queen north to Bloor far faster than Spadina does. Spadina's problem is that it gets caught up on frequent and very slow signals all along it's route. It operates barely faster than walking speed I find.

I'm a cyclist though so I just get very impatient with public transit as cycling can often deliver travel times at about half of the TTC around the downtown, so when I do take the TTC I get very frustrated.

[Innsertnamehere]

One thing that consistently amazes me is how many cities had streetcars back in the day in Ontario. Towns as small as Woodstock and Guelph had streetcar systems, which did disappear fairly quickly.

I always felt like Hamilton would be an excellent candidate to see streetcars return, and I guess it sort of is with the LRT, albeit in a sort of modern form.

[swimmer_spe]

Originally Posted by canucklehead2

We should strive to rebuild ALL of Canada's defunct systems using new battery-electric trams. Rails good! Wires? Ish...

The one thing about street running streetcars is their tracks are uncomfortable to drive in. So, as long as it isn't just buses with batteries, I'm in.

Originally Posted by ssiguy

I've never understood the recent fascination with streetcars.

If they are already there then I can see keeping them as they offer a smooth and comfortable ride as well as having high capacity. I can also see extensions of those system but as far as building new systems, I think they are little more than vanity projects.

BRT offers the same service as streetcars but is vastly cheaper and easier to implement. The ride quality of buses has also increased greatly due to battery/hydrogen making them non-polluting, have far faster acceleration, and are much quieter inside and out. Battery buses also don't have the upkeep and unsightliness of overhead wires. For the ridiculous amount spent on 10km of streetcar you could get 40km of equally fast BRT serving hundreds more destination and tens of thousands of more riders.

This "look Mom I have a streetcar too" crap is a classic example of poor transit planning made by politicians who are more concerned with ribbon cutting ceremonies than providing the best transit for the masses.

The busiest bus line in Canada is the 99 B Line in Vancouver. It averages about 22,000 passengers a day. The busiest streetcar line is the 504 King line in Toronto which averages over 84,000. Please show me a street running bus line that has that capacity.

Originally Posted by casper

All is a fairly broad definition it would encompass putting them back into cities like Victoria and Saskatoon. Even places like Nelson.

I like where your going with this. These smaller communities deserve higher order public transit as much as the next guys.

It is interesting that place like Victoria has plans for new "LRT" service, which, if you really look at it, it is just a streetcar system. Took us a few decades, but we have learned that we should have kept those old lines.

Originally Posted by canucklehead2

They are good at reclaiming the street from cars by saying, Move B*tch get out the way like a Ludichris banger and that's a good thing. Even places like Whistler and Banff should have streetcar systems because of their immense tourist draw issues. Especially if linked to bigger cities with regional rail connections.

Lake Louise did have a streetcar line that went up to the lake from the town. Part of the hiking trails there are the old line.

Originally Posted by Dengler Avenue

I was driving on Don Valley Parkway last Saturday and saw rail tracks in the middle of Eglinton Avenue. At first I was wondering which street car route goes on that road. Then I realized that it was the future LRT.
It goes to show that the two are really indistinguishable in Toronto nowadays.

LRT is the new term for it.

Originally Posted by esquire

You show me a new streetcar project and I'll show you one where BRT could have done the job for less. In fact, I'd be curious to know where BRT would have been incapable of handling the traffic that a streetcar line could.

I suppose I could be convinced otherwise, but from what I've seen I'm inclined to agree with ssiguy. There is a somewhat empty, flavour of the month factor with streetcars.

Obviously for European cities with established legacy systems, keeping streetcars/trams makes sense. But I don't see how building one from the ground up makes sense these days.

Ok, pick any of the LRT project in Canada from the last 10 years. Show us proof that BRT would work.
The proof that BRT is a bad idea is the mess with the Confederation Line.

Originally Posted by Innsertnamehere

One thing that consistently amazes me is how many cities had streetcars back in the day in Ontario. Towns as small as Woodstock and Guelph had streetcar systems, which did disappear fairly quickly.

I always felt like Hamilton would be an excellent candidate to see streetcars return, and I guess it sort of is with the LRT, albeit in a sort of modern form.

Most seemed to be around for about 30-40 years. Fun fact, the first streetcar line in Canada was in.....


Windsor Ontario.

[JHikka]

Originally Posted by swimmer_spe

Most seemed to be around for about 30-40 years. Fun fact, the first streetcar line in Canada was in.....


Windsor Ontario.

If we're talking electric lines, yes. Toronto, Montreal, Quebec, Hamilton, Halifax and Saint John had animal lines prior to Windsor.

[Nouvellecosse]

Originally Posted by swimmer_spe

The busiest bus line in Canada is the 99 B Line in Vancouver. It averages about 22,000 passengers a day. The busiest streetcar line is the 504 King line in Toronto which averages over 84,000. Please show me a street running bus line that has that capacity.

There are many bus routes in Canada that handle more than 22k per day including the Broadway corridor. You may just be looking at a single service operating on Broadway? Or perhaps pandemic numbers? Regardless there are probably a dozen bus routes in Toronto with higher than 22k. But I agree that 84k is definitely pushing it for buses. They may be physically able to do it but they'd be long past the point where they should be upgraded to something better.

For reference, this set of figures from 2012 show the busiest TTC surface routes at the time.

504 King (streetcar). 56,700
32 Eglinton West (bus). 48,700
35 Jane (bus). 45,700
36 Finch West (bus). 44,000
510 Spadina (streetcar). 43,800
501 Queen (streetcar). 43,500
25 Don Mills (bus). 41,800
39 Finch East (bus). 41,400
29 Dufferin (bus). 39,700
506 Carlton (streetcar). 39,600

https://ttc.ca/Customer_Service/Corp...ures/index.jsp

[SignalHillHiker]

St. John’s had streetcars from 1900-1948. The network primarily served the downtown core but did extend deep in to the residential areas that existed at that time, including Rawlin’s Cross and Riverhead. The wait time here was about 10 minutes between cars, with eight lines.





I wish they’d bring back at least a loop around Water and Duckworth if only for aesthetics.

[swimmer_spe]

Originally Posted by JHikka

If we're talking electric lines, yes. Toronto, Montreal, Quebec, Hamilton, Halifax and Saint John had animal lines prior to Windsor.

You are correct that I was referring to electric.

Originally Posted by Nouvellecosse

There are many bus routes in Canada that handle more than 22k per day including the Broadway corridor. You may just be looking at a single service operating on Broadway? Or perhaps pandemic numbers? Regardless there are probably a dozen bus routes in Toronto with higher than 22k. But I agree that 84k is definitely pushing it for buses. They may be physically able to do it but they'd be long past the point where they should be upgraded to something better.

For reference, this set of figures from 2012 show the busiest TTC surface routes at the time.

504 King (streetcar). 56,700
32 Eglinton West (bus). 48,700
35 Jane (bus). 45,700
36 Finch West (bus). 44,000
510 Spadina (streetcar). 43,800
501 Queen (streetcar). 43,500
25 Don Mills (bus). 41,800
39 Finch East (bus). 41,400
29 Dufferin (bus). 39,700
506 Carlton (streetcar). 39,600

https://ttc.ca/Customer_Service/Corp...ures/index.jsp

Below I will prove a point.....

504 King (streetcar). 56,700
32 Eglinton West (bus). 48,700 LRT under construction
35 Jane (bus). 45,700 LRT under construction
36 Finch West (bus). 44,000 LRT under construction
510 Spadina (streetcar). 43,800
501 Queen (streetcar). 43,500
25 Don Mills (bus). 41,800
39 Finch East (bus). 41,400
29 Dufferin (bus). 39,700
506 Carlton (streetcar). 39,600

So, what does it say when the top one is a streetcar, the next 3 are being converted to LRTs and the following 2 are also streetcars?

I'd say it says that for high capacity, no bus can beat the LRT/streetcars.

[JHikka]

Has the Jane LRT even been confirmed? Last I checked the idea had been shelved. It would be a great corridor for LRT service but as things stand the focus is on Finch West.

I'm assuming that Don Mills bus will only get busier once Eglinton and Ontario line come online.

[swimmer_spe]

Originally Posted by JHikka

Has the Jane LRT even been confirmed? Last I checked the idea had been shelved. It would be a great corridor for LRT service but as things stand the focus is on Finch West.

I'm assuming that Don Mills bus will only get busier once Eglinton and Ontario line come online.

My mistake. I thought it was under construction.

[Nouvellecosse]

Originally Posted by swimmer_spe

You are correct that I was referring to electric.



Below I will prove a point.....

504 King (streetcar). 56,700
32 Eglinton West (bus). 48,700 LRT under construction
35 Jane (bus). 45,700 LRT under construction
36 Finch West (bus). 44,000 LRT under construction
510 Spadina (streetcar). 43,800
501 Queen (streetcar). 43,500
25 Don Mills (bus). 41,800
39 Finch East (bus). 41,400
29 Dufferin (bus). 39,700
506 Carlton (streetcar). 39,600

So, what does it say when the top one is a streetcar, the next 3 are being converted to LRTs and the following 2 are also streetcars?

I'd say it says that for high capacity, no bus can beat the LRT/streetcars.

None of the routes being upgraded are to "streetcar" but rather to LRT, the two of which you seem to be trying to equate for the sake of this "point" but which are very different in terms of capacity. The Toronto streetcars for instance are 30m long compared to an articulated bus which is 18m. The Eglingon LRTs will initially be 60m with the ability to increase to 90m.

Meanwhile, the marketing for the Ontario line includes the claim that it will help to relieve the chronically overcrowded Queen and King streetcar routes, showing that they're overcrowded as well, despite being operated with streetcars. And the Broadway corridor, for which I've seen ridership figures as high as 100k per day for the combined services, is also being upgraded - not to streetcar or even LRT, but to light metro.

The point is that while streetcars have higher capacity than buses, you're exaggerating the difference which, in the case of the Toronto streetcars, is about 60%. That's very notable and a great advantage, but your comparison of 22k for a bus corridor vs 84k fior the King streetcar which is 380% more, is... misleading. Toronto Streetcars are about 66% longer but also slightly narrower. Yes there are longer streetcar models available but there's also a limit in terms of block sizes as well.

[ssiguy]

We are talking about streetcars and not LRT.

Give a bus ROW, advanced signaling, level boarding, and all entry/exit doors and it can do the job just as well as a streetcar but at a fraction of the price in a quarter of the time.

While I may have once agreed with the appeal of a streetcar the reality is that their advantages over buses has declined dramatically over the last few years. This is due to battery vehicles that have have faster acceleration, save money on fuel costs, require less maintenance due to having far fewer moving parts, are non-polluting, offer easy level boarding, and much quieter inside and out than the standard diesel buses they are replacing and no maintenance or visual pollution of overhead wires.

As far as the bumpier ride of a bus, it is true that buses will never offer the same ride quality of a streetcar but difference too is greatly reduced with BRT in it's own ROW. Bus only lanes do not have the wear & tear of regular roads so they are much smoother than what we usually think of when we think of the bus. It's not so much the bus but rather what the road itself that determines the ride quality.

BRT can also be expanded far easier, can avoid accidents that can cause an entire streetcar line to come to a screeching halt, and can be interlined reducing needless transfers and the dreaded last mile.

[swimmer_spe]

Originally Posted by ssiguy

We are talking about streetcars and not LRT.

Give a bus ROW, advanced signaling, level boarding, and all entry/exit doors and it can do the job just as well as a streetcar but at a fraction of the price in a quarter of the time.

While I may have once agreed with the appeal of a streetcar the reality is that their advantages over buses has declined dramatically over the last few years. This is due to battery vehicles that have have faster acceleration, save money on fuel costs, require less maintenance due to having far fewer moving parts, are non-polluting, offer easy level boarding, and much quieter inside and out than the standard diesel buses they are replacing and no maintenance or visual pollution of overhead wires.

As far as the bumpier ride of a bus, it is true that buses will never offer the same ride quality of a streetcar but difference too is greatly reduced with BRT in it's own ROW. Bus only lanes do not have the wear & tear of regular roads so they are much smoother than what we usually think of when we think of the bus. It's not so much the bus but rather what the road itself that determines the ride quality.

BRT can also be expanded far easier, can avoid accidents that can cause an entire streetcar line to come to a screeching halt, and can be interlined reducing needless transfers and the dreaded last mile.

If that is the case, why isn't the TTC switching their busiest bus routes to BRT? Why are they going to something like LRT?

The differences between Streetcars is less than the differences between a bus and a streetcar.

[biguc]

Originally Posted by ssiguy

We are talking about streetcars and not LRT.

Give a bus ROW, advanced signaling, level boarding, and all entry/exit doors and it can do the job just as well as a streetcar but at a fraction of the price in a quarter of the time.

Not to be pedantic, but streetcars are light rail.

The Bargain Rapid Transit myth behind BRT doesn't really play out. Grade separations are the real expensive part of building any transit system. Make a busway that avoids traffic and you may as well throw down some steel to get bigger vehicles, a better ride, quieter surroundings, and to avoid having to rip up your work in a decade to convert it to rail.

Another big saving from streetcars comes in the planning stage. Where are we going to build a streetcar line? On the street. Done. No need to tie ourselves in knots protecting existing traffic patterns or natural areas. Just build the damn thing.

And the actual act of turning a lane of traffic into a streetcar ROW doesn't need to be complicated or expensive. Europeans manage to build tram infrastructure for surprisingly little because they aren't reinventing the wheel every time they add to a tram system--they already have the knowhow and workers to jump in and do it. The same economy of scale should kick in in Canadian cities committed to building, maintaining, and expanding a streetcar network. We've just got to commit.

There are some decent and cheap BRT systems out there--Bogota and Curitiba. But they followed the streetcar model; these are busses running in lanes down the centre of street, or on smaller streets closed to cars. I guess we could do that. Or we could remember that even Canada's poorest cities have a GDP per capita 2-5x that of Bogota and Curitiba. Might as well figure out the whole train thing.

[WhipperSnapper]

Originally Posted by niwell

Huh, East End perspective I'm guessing?

The bus replacements for College and King were piss slow when I had to use them for occasional commuting. Completely packed by Dufferin and took forever to embark / disembark due to the awkward layout necessitated by low floor accessibility requirements. The only times they were likely faster is late at night or on Sundays when traffic was very light. When they were running occasional buses due to car shortages many people at the stop would wait for a streetcar instead of trying to cram on.

Indeed.

Like I said, I was not in their corner. Those old CLRVs were a vastly superior experience than the terrible hybrid low/high floor buses the TTC uses .

BRT is not comparable to light rail. BRT and light rail are not comparable to streetcar systems. One has walkable stop distances. The other rarely does. Transit oriented reflects that by usually concentrating a lot of density around stations instead of higher densities along the entire line

Mixed traffic in Toronto is a thing of the past. All new expansions have to be in a ROW. The preferred option appears to be a right of way in the middle of the road. I personally would prefer the Harbourfront model with a road on one side and the ROW on the other for most circumstances. Crossing lanes of traffic to a platform stop or standing at any stop with cars wizzing by is not a nice thing. I can live with improved ambiance for streetcar users at the expense of right hand turns.