Oregon Square | 2 buildings | XX'-XX" | 5-6 or 8-9 floors | Proposed

[MarkDaMan]

^Sure, thanks for the info!

[maccoinnich]

Periodic "anyone have a DJC subscription?" post.

[Abide]

The commissioners essentially said they're worried about the possibility of a Euro-style square surrounded by buildings not working (essentially, there's nothing else like it in the city and it's success cannot therefore be predicted) and that the greenery should be accessible to pedestrians and not quarantined in planters. Otherwise, they seem to like the general idea of the square.

[Photogeric]

With that latest photo, I'm actually starting to get more excited about this project and I really am liking the concept of the square. It could be an epicenter for all sorts of events, from farmers markets to beer festivals (and others). It could host New Years Eve events and the like... if they can focus on centralizing the activity around the square, such as creating sidewalk cafes and restaurants with outdoor seating and such, then it will be highly successful in my opinion. As long as the square stays public...

[65MAX]

Originally Posted by Abide

The commissioners essentially said they're worried about the possibility of a Euro-style square surrounded by buildings not working (essentially, there's nothing else like it in the city and it's success cannot therefore be predicted) and that the greenery should be accessible to pedestrians and not quarantined in planters. Otherwise, they seem to like the general idea of the square.

Right, because European-style squares are so risky and unproven since they've only been used for, what, a couple thousand years?

I thought we were the "most European" American city.

[Abide]

Right, but old European cities often have a warren of winding roads that converge on a square as a central point of the neighborhood. It'd be interesting to see how it works in a grid. I think it could succeed in a very dense part of town (a place I think the Lloyd will be someday). I also don't know how it'd fare in the neighborhood in its current state. I hope, quite well.

[dkealoha]

I work in Lloyd Tower and with the amount of office workers already in the area added to a couple thousand new residents living here, I think there's plenty of people to keep the square activated for a majority of the day. Lloyd is already a busier area than SoWa, a place I'd be a bit more worried about this kind of square being quickly successful.

[Pdxnative]

Originally Posted by 65MAX

Right, because European-style squares are so risky and unproven since they've only been used for, what, a couple thousand years?

I thought we were the "most European" American city.

Haha! Well said. I think the PDC should take the risk.
What's the worst that can happen?
On another note, i am really excited about this project

[urbanlife]

Originally Posted by Pdxnative

Haha! Well said. I think the PDC should take the risk.
What's the worst that can happen?
On another note, i am really excited about this project

Exactly, that is what the PDC is for, to take those big chances that can help shape Portland. The Pearl District was a big chance for them at the time.

[maccoinnich]

I assume pdxnative was referring to the Portland Design Commision. The Development Commission isn't involved in this project, as far as I know.

[Pdxnative]

Originally Posted by maccoinnich

I assume pdxnative was referring to the Portland Design Commision. The Development Commission isn't involved in this project, as far as I know.

Yes, exactly. Thank you for the clarification.

My point is, Portland is an innovative city that has
Taken risks in the past. That's what makes us a great city.
I personally love this project. I think the courtyard issue
Will figure itself out either way

[zilfondel]

I think the risk is that it could either turn into a vacant park ignored by people (Lovejoy Fountain), a high-crime place avoided by people, or a homeless camp.

With proper design, programming and security, those outcomes can be avoided.

[maccoinnich]

I've just started listening to the Design Commission audio for the first DAR. Interestingly, Kyle Anderson of GBD mentioned that they've already done preliminary design work on Phase III.

[PDXDENSITY]

My name should make my opinion evident, as I've shared earlier. That square looks like it's going to be a dead space used only by the tenants. They're doing bad design! Ugh. Keep to the small blocks!!! IT WORKS.

I think the risk is that it could either turn into a vacant park ignored by people (Lovejoy Fountain), a high-crime place avoided by people, or a homeless camp.

With proper design, programming and security, those outcomes can be avoided.

I don't think we should create another open space we have to force to life. Make the design do the work with our small grid.

[Abide]

I love the idea of an urban square in this neighborhood. My biggest concern is having said square in what is essentially the south end of the neighborhood. I think its success as proposed is up in the air because I'm not sure how many people will frequent it since it's a bit out of the way of most Lloyd area pedestrian activity. I think a large square like this would have been better in Phase I or Phase III. That said, my hopes remain high that the sheer size of this development can bring it to life.

[PacificNW]

Originally Posted by Abide

I love the idea of an urban square in this neighborhood. My biggest concern is having said square in what is essentially the south end of the neighborhood. I think its success as proposed is up in the air because I'm not sure how many people will frequent it since it's a bit out of the way of most Lloyd area pedestrian activity. I think a large square like this would have been better in Phase I or Phase III. That said, my hopes remain high that the sheer size of this development can bring it to life.

Aren't there around 700 apartments under construction "just" across the street? I remember reading that many public squares "work" when they strive to attract mothers and their children... This design can work...IMO..

[hat]

Originally Posted by PacificNW

Aren't there around 700 apartments under construction "just" across the street? I remember reading that many public squares "work" when they strive to attract mothers and their children... This design can work...IMO..

Playground. Cafes. Jamison Park works because there are kids. You steal the Corgi fest from that park and you're golden.

[hat]

Originally Posted by maccoinnich

I've just started listening to the Design Commission audio for the first DAR. Interestingly, Kyle Anderson of GBD mentioned that they've already done preliminary design work on Phase III.

Any details on design? Will this block have a courtyard as well?

[maccoinnich]

Originally Posted by hat

Any details on design? Will this block have a courtyard as well?

He just mentioned it in passing, and didn't share any details, other than that there are some design challenges due to the fact that the Lloyd Center Tower encroaches onto the vacated right-of-way.

I can however share the thoughts of the Design Commission. I even took notes.

• The presentation images seem to imply a heavily programmed space, with a farmers market, concerts, events etc. That's not an easy thing to pull off, and it requires a full time effort to program. If that's their intent, they need to start working with an organization / company that will do the programming.
• There are large areas of landscaping in the square that are functioning as stormwater treatment, which people can't really interact with, i.e. they can look at it, but not sit in amongst it.
• What should the street level be like facing the square vs facing the surrounding streets? Can the enclosed square have the atmosphere of the kind of European square that's lined with cafes, bars and restaurants? And by contrast could the surrounding streets have more traditional retail type tenants? [Of note, the current plans—which I'll post soon—show a lot more retail than is shown in this post. There's no longer any residential at the ground level. The architects have also gone to great lengths to make the retail two sided, and to minimize the amount of service areas facing either the square or the street.]
• What is the public art strategy? A public project, such as a new light rail line, would be required to spend a percentage of the budget on art. A private development isn't, but the design guidelines do say that applicants should be encouraged to incorporate art. So they were duly encouraged. Given the scale of the project, could the developer commission the kind of piece of art that people would go out of their way to see, take photos with, etc? This is something that Portland doesn't really have at the moment, but many other cities do.
• The square is huge, and to a certain extend the designs seem to show a fear of how big it is. They've made a huge square, and then proceeded to break down into smaller chunks, as if backing away from their decision.
• Public spaces that fail often do so because they have poor edge conditions, which are outside the control of the designer, i.e. they face a freeway or existing buildings with blank walls. In this case, GBD get to control all the edges. They have no excuse not to make it great.
• Phase II makes the opposite design move to Phase I. In Phase I, they took a superblock and put a street through it. In this case, they're actually removing a street, and in effect making a larger superblock. Is this the right design move? One commissioner drew the comparison to the South Auditorium district. Although the Halprin landscaping is wonderful, it's kind of a hidden gem, and very very quiet. Many of the design guidelines in the zoning code were written as a reaction to this kind of development.
• All the entrances to the square, labelled as "gates" in the plans, are about the same size. (One is hilariously named "Water Gate".) Should there be some hierarchy? Maybe the opening to the MAX should be more prominent than the one that only leads to the State office building.
• Maybe the square can functioning as a 'knuckle' at the intersection of two pedestrian routes: one N/S along the NE 8th water street; and one along NE Pacific leading the main entrance of the Convention Center.
• The architectural language of Phase I is quite conservative, and could be in the Pearl or South Waterfront. There's an opportunity in the Lloyd to be freer, and respond to the 1960s modernist language of the district.

In general, I would say that the project received a very warm reception. The advice offered was friendly and constructive criticism. What's being proposed is something that doesn't really exist in Portland, which is a huge opportunity. This isn't without risk, but it could also be something really great.

[zilfondel]

Originally Posted by PDXDENSITY

My name should make my opinion evident, as I've shared earlier. That square looks like it's going to be a dead space used only by the tenants. They're doing bad design! Ugh. Keep to the small blocks!!! IT WORKS.



I don't think we should create another open space we have to force to life. Make the design do the work with our small grid.

pic from THA - Atwater Place plaza

I was just down in South Waterfront yesterday, and stopped by to take a look at the new waterfront park (its not open yet, but appears finished). There is a total dead space created by the landscaping along the north side of the Atwater Place building. It just has no life whatsoever... I was always skeptical about the landscape design in SoWa, but those streets are just heavily landscaped dead spaces devoid of life, people, or any activity. It is also bone-chillingly cold.

I give it a D-

I think that in Portland architects need to be extremely conscious of sun exposure. For instance, in the Pearl the dog park had about 20 people hanging out, some with dogs and some without. The difference between the Atwater landscaped plaza and a dog park - millions of $$, and an open field is the winner!

Vancouver BC has had a lot of success with minimal design along their waterfront paths (just a grassy area with a crumbling paved MUP, like the Springwater trail near the Ross Island Bridge) and play fields near condo developments. Portland could also throw in some community gardens, as they are always popular among people who don't have yard space to garden. However, they won't do well on the North side of a tower, due to the lack of sunlight.

My $.02 as an architectural designer.