High-Speed Intercity Passenger Rail Program (USA)

[electricron]

I just wanted to add this additional argument about the NEC being self sustaining and not requiring subsidizes.

Who do you think is going to pay for the new proposed $10 Billion tunnel under the Husdon, and the expansion of Pennsylvania Station? NEC passengers through fares, or your average US citizen through income taxes?
From http://quickfacts.census.gov/qfd/states/00000.html
US population = 307,006,550
NY + NJ population = 19,541,453 + 8,707,739 = 28,249,192
US - NY - NJ population = 307,006,550 - 19,541,453 - 8,707,739 = 278,757,358

So, basically 100% of the US population is subsidizing the NEC and this $10 Billion project likely to be used by less than 10% of the US population on a regular basis (meaning at least several times a year). This is just one expensive ticket item Amtrak wants to do for the NEC. I don't care how close the NEC trains are in turning a profit operationally, we can argue that point forever, but let's agree they don't after including all the capital expenses needed to keep the NEC running....

[Mr Downtown]

Originally Posted by 202_Cyclist

Robert Samuelson has an editorial critical of high speed rail in today's Washington Post. The editorial is filled with fallacies

What fallacies do you see in the Samuelson piece?

[SpawnOfVulcan]

Originally Posted by ardecila

Yeah, but those rural stations are the only thing keeping rural residents supporting train service. If the trains ran express-only, they'd die off very very soon. Besides, is somebody from Tuscaloosa really gonna drive to Birmingham to get on a train to Atlanta? At that point, most would rather just keep driving, or fly. The convenience of the train is that the station's nearby.

What should be done instead is for Amtrak to approach towns that want service, and then get the towns to pay for operation and maintenance of the stations. A $30 million renovation is probably out of the question for most rural AL towns, but even they can afford a ticket machine and a weekly mopdown at existing stations.

That doesn't change the operating expenses of the train, though, which is a huge chunk of the total cost. One train employs a ton of people, including conductors, several people in the snack car, and several people in the engine crew. That's not to mention the ground-support people at the train yards who restock, clean, fix up, and prepare the trains between runs. The salaries of all those people add up quickly.

True, about the train to Atlanta. But, the train trip to Atlanta isn't much shorter than the drive. Atlanta is so car based, it's even more convenient to drive, so really, I don't think that many people from Tuscaloosa are gonna take the train to Atlanta anyways.

HOWEVER, I do think that it would still be appealing for people from Tuscaloosa to drive to Birmingham and hop on a train to New Orleans. In that case, I think it's still more convenient.

Anyways, I think what you suggest is a good idea. Improve the stops to make train travel more appealing. Birmingham is about to, or already has, begun to build a new train station. The current one's condition is simply awful. Maybe it'll help make it more appealing.

I think many more people in cities like Tuscaloosa would be more inclined to ride the train if the depot wasn't so disgusting to look out. When you look at it, you can tell that the building was probably pretty nice back in the day. You could easily spend a couple million on it an increase ridership by a great deal.

[zilfondel]

Originally Posted by electricron

I just wanted to add this additional argument about the NEC being self sustaining and not requiring subsidizes.

Who do you think is going to pay for the new proposed $10 Billion tunnel under the Husdon, and the expansion of Pennsylvania Station? NEC passengers through fares, or your average US citizen through income taxes?
From http://quickfacts.census.gov/qfd/states/00000.html
US population = 307,006,550
NY + NJ population = 19,541,453 + 8,707,739 = 28,249,192
US - NY - NJ population = 307,006,550 - 19,541,453 - 8,707,739 = 278,757,358

So, basically 100% of the US population is subsidizing the NEC and this $10 Billion project likely to be used by less than 10% of the US population on a regular basis (meaning at least several times a year). This is just one expensive ticket item Amtrak wants to do for the NEC. I don't care how close the NEC trains are in turning a profit operationally, we can argue that point forever, but let's agree they don't after including all the capital expenses needed to keep the NEC running....

Are you kidding? Podunk Portland, Oregon has burned through around $6 billion (mostly federal) on transportation infrastructure over the past decade. We're looking at spending about $4 billion (of your federal tax dollars!) to replace a 6 lane bridge with an 8 lane bridge. And we have less than 4 million people. It completely makes sense to invest infrastructure spending on the densest, wealthiest travel corridor in the USA.

Shit, Spain has already spent ~$30 billion for high speed rail, are planning on spending a total of $150 billion, and they have what, 46 million people?

A billion dollar freeway interchange rebuild in the states is nothing.

[electricron]

Originally Posted by zilfondel

Are you kidding? Podunk Portland, Oregon has burned through around $6 billion (mostly federal) on transportation infrastructure over the past decade. We're looking at spending about $4 billion (of your federal tax dollars!) to replace a 6 lane bridge with an 8 lane bridge. And we have less than 4 million people. It completely makes sense to invest infrastructure spending on the densest, wealthiest travel corridor in the USA.

Shit, Spain has already spent ~$30 billion for high speed rail, are spending a total of $150 billion, and they have what, 46 million people?

A billion dollar freeway interchange rebuild in the states is nothing.

What about "I just wanted to add this additional argument about the NEC being self sustaining and not requiring subsidizes" did you not understand?

I'l agree with you that seaways, airways, railways, and highways are all subsidized.... But that wasn't the point I was trying to make! I was trying to point out that their supposedly breaking even NEC railroad isn't!

Sure, Portland is getting $Billions on highways, so is everyone else. But - for those suggesting Amtrak should only provide NEC services (killing "long distance" Amtrak services) because its profitable, are lying and aren't providing rail services to everyone else.

They want federally subsidized intercity rail services only for themselves.

[BevoLJ]

Originally Posted by zilfondel

Shit, Spain has already spent ~$30 billion for high speed rail, are planning on spending a total of $150 billion, and they have what, 46 million people?

While I agree with you in regards to the NY-NJ tunnel as being needed, I might suggest Spain with its financial situations is not the best example right now.

[Nexis4Jersey]

Originally Posted by electricron

I just wanted to add this additional argument about the NEC being self sustaining and not requiring subsidizes.

Who do you think is going to pay for the new proposed $10 Billion tunnel under the Husdon, and the expansion of Pennsylvania Station? NEC passengers through fares, or your average US citizen through income taxes?
From http://quickfacts.census.gov/qfd/states/00000.html
US population = 307,006,550
NY + NJ population = 19,541,453 + 8,707,739 = 28,249,192
US - NY - NJ population = 307,006,550 - 19,541,453 - 8,707,739 = 278,757,358

So, basically 100% of the US population is subsidizing the NEC and this $10 Billion project likely to be used by less than 10% of the US population on a regular basis (meaning at least several times a year). This is just one expensive ticket item Amtrak wants to do for the NEC. I don't care how close the NEC trains are in turning a profit operationally, we can argue that point forever, but let's agree they don't after including all the capital expenses needed to keep the NEC running....

Well deal with it , i'm tired of the other states whining.....we prop up half the US GDP and have over 17% of the population in less then 5% of the land......I'm tired of paying for the highways to nowhere or ridiculous DART expansions that are used by little....

[BevoLJ]

Originally Posted by Nexis4Jersey

...we prop up half the US GDP....

Please let us know how you came to that conclusion. $1.4 trillion / $15 trillion >! .5

[Nexis4Jersey]

Originally Posted by BevoLJ

Please let us know how you came to that conclusion. $1.4 trillion / $15 trillion >! .5

Its 20% my bad , but still we basically fuel this countries economy.....its also 2.48 Trillion $$$ not 1.4 trillion

[10023]

Originally Posted by tredici

There shouldn't be a train running between Atlanta and New Orleans?

Probably not, no.

[ardecila]

Originally Posted by tredici

True, about the train to Atlanta. But, the train trip to Atlanta isn't much shorter than the drive. Atlanta is so car based, it's even more convenient to drive, so really, I don't think that many people from Tuscaloosa are gonna take the train to Atlanta anyways.

Are you kidding? Driving is way faster than the train. The train takes 5h10, and driving is half that (plus traffic delays).

Atlanta's building a new downtown train station fairly soon, IIRC, which will have direct connections to Atlanta transit. The existing station is within walking distance of north Midtown and Atlantic Station, though... it's not exactly in the middle of nowhere.

I think many more people in cities like Tuscaloosa would be more inclined to ride the train if the depot wasn't so disgusting to look out. When you look at it, you can tell that the building was probably pretty nice back in the day. You could easily spend a couple million on it an increase ridership by a great deal.

Sure, upgrade the station. Tuscaloosa's got a pretty nice old Southern Railway depot that needs some love. But more effective than that would be to increase the speed of the train and increase the frequency to 2 per day. It's pretty pathetic right now, and could easily increase to 70/80mph with renewed track. (Fortunately NS is upgrading the corridor, which could mean improvements to the Amtrak schedule)

[JDRCRASH]

Originally Posted by 10023

Probably not, no.

Connecting New Orleans to Houston and Atlanta to Charlotte is probably more important, right?

[Beta_Magellan]

Goodbye Florida (from TTP):

Florida Governor Rick Scott Rejects Funding for Tampa-Orlando Intercity Rail Project

Just days after the White House revealed its ambitions for a $53 billion, six-year plan for an American high-speed rail network, the place where it was all supposed to begin now appears to be out of the running. Today, Florida Governor Rick Scott (R) announced that he would refuse $2.4 billion in federal funds to build a rail line between Orlando and Tampa. The project’s construction would have required $280 million in state aid to be completed, but projections had indicated that the line would cover its own operating costs.

The Obama Administration has funded the project more than any other outside of California and hoped that the scheme, which would have opened in 2016 as the first line in a nationwide network, would serve as a model for the rest of the country. Numerous private corporations — including international conglomerates such as Siemens, Alstom, and JR East — have indicated that they would be willing to pick up the state’s tab and cover construction and operations risks, in exchange for the right to operate the trains.

Yet Mr. Scott has moved to squash the project nonetheless, acting before those companies were supposed to respond to the state high speed rail authority’s request for proposals. This is a shortsighted move that will only benefit others: The federal funding will be redistributed to projects in states such as California and Illinois.

[brickell]

What a sick state of affairs. As far as I can tell this was cut on ideology alone.

[sammyg]

He really is Lex Luthor.

If they redistribute this, would that be enough money to stretch California HSR to Lancaster? There's no rail connection from LA to Bakersfield/Fresno, this could be a big start, and definitely mean much higher ridership.

[Beta_Magellan]

Encouragingly, Mica’s pissed. From the Orlando Sentinel:

"I am deeply disappointed in the decision to not move forward with the Orlando to Tampa passenger rail project," Mica said in a statement. "This is a huge setback for the state of Florida, our transportation, economic development, and important tourism industry.''

He said he had already asked the governor to reconsider his decision.

In a sense, this is relieving—I don’t think it will get Florida HSR back on the table, but it might represent a softening of Mica’s NEC-only stance. Another revealing quote:

Dockery also questioned whether Scott really understood the way the train was supposed to operate in Florida. The company chosen to build the train would have been contractually bound to cover any cost overruns in construction, as well as any operating deficits. […] ""The governor is saying to these teams that they must be lying when they agree to accept cost overruns and ridership risks," said Dockery, a longtime Republican fundraiser and husband of state Sen. Paula Dockery, R-Lakeland.

This doesn’t say much for the state’s business climate.

[OhioGuy]

From a news write-up on the NBC Orlando website:

Scott said he informed U.S. Transportation Secretary Ray LaHood of his decision earlier Wednesday.

Scott wrote to Hood that he did not believe high-speed rail would "create any meaningful" jobs beyond the construction phase and would not "economically sustainable" over the long haul.

Scott said he instead wants federal dollars to "invest in higher yield" projects like "widening Interstate 4 in Orange County."

Republican governors in Ohio and Wisconsin have also rejected high-speed rail plans.

LaHood Responds To Scott's Letter

U.S. Transportation Secretary Ray LaHood released the following statement Wednesday:

"We are extremely disappointed by Governor Rick Scott's decision to walk away from the job creating and economic development benefits of high speed rail in Florida. We worked with the governor to make sure we eliminated all financial risk for the state, instead requiring private businesses competing for the project to assume cost overruns and operating expenses. It is projects like these that will help America out-build our global competitors and lay the foundation needed to win the future. This project could have supported thousands of good-paying jobs for Floridians and helped grow Florida businesses, all while alleviating congestion on Florida's highways. Nevertheless, there is overwhelming demand for high speed rail in other states that are enthusiastic to receive Florida's funding and the economic benefits it can deliver, such as manufacturing and construction jobs, as well as private development along its corridors."

[UrbanImpact]

Please, everyone contact the Floridian Governor and give his office a peice of your mind (I understand it wont help, but at least it's a start):

http://www.flgov.com/contact-gov-sco...-the-governor/

[JACKinBeantown]

You know what... you vote for a republican and you can expect this. If that's what Florida's voters want, then let the more progressive parts of the country get funds for rail and let Florida drivers sit in the traffic jams they apparently want. (No offense to Floridians as people... just as voters)

[tdawg]

I can only imagine that if today's Republican party were in charge post-Depression instead of FDR, this country would have never become the powerhouse it is today. How near-sighted.