Halifax Stadium Discussion

[Keith P.]

Given the financial state of the province's books, you can forget about any provincial funding for something like this in Halifax. Meanwhile, once Shawn Graham sells off NB Power he will have pockets full of cash to toss at projects like a stadium.

I don't mind an economical stadium, but I don't like the "temporary stands and a football field" concept. You are tying up a valuable chunk of property and you need certain facilities to be installed to make it viable. Far better to design what you need and build it rather than cobble together a bunch of temporary junk that won't last.

[sdm]

Originally Posted by Keith P.

Given the financial state of the province's books, you can forget about any provincial funding for something like this in Halifax. Meanwhile, once Shawn Graham sells off NB Power he will have pockets full of cash to toss at projects like a stadium.

I don't mind an economical stadium, but I don't like the "temporary stands and a football field" concept. You are tying up a valuable chunk of property and you need certain facilities to be installed to make it viable. Far better to design what you need and build it rather than cobble together a bunch of temporary junk that won't last.

And if anything should illustrate how things will go, look at todays news.... City now on the hook for 40 millon.

N.S. government kicks in $2 million toward Bedford arena

By PATRICIA BROOKS ARENBURG Staff Reporter
Tue. Nov 17 - 9:47 AM

The province will lay down the cash to help Bedford residents hit the ice.

The Department of Health Promotion and Protection announced today that the Nova Scotia government will contribute $2 million to the four-pad arena being built on the Hammonds Plains Road.
The B-FIT program, which started in 2007, was created to replace and upgrade recreation facilities in Nova Scotia.

"The arena will provide more opportunities for local residents to live healthier and more active lives," Maureen MacDonald, Minister of Health Promotion and Protection, said in a news release.

Halifax Regional Municipality had expected the federal and provincial governments to cover half the cost of the $40-million project through the federal-provincial stimulus program, but was surprised in July when the feds rejected the project. At the time, the province indicated that it still wanted to support the project, and would try to do so through another funding program.

The facility, owned by HRM and operated by Nustadia Recreation Inc., is expected to open in September 2010 and will offer ice time for minor sports.

(pbrooks@herald.ca)

[Phalanx]

Originally Posted by Empire

Dexter should take a 20% pay cut for lying repeatedly to the electorate...we will balance the budget with no tax increases or program cuts. The rest of the NDP flunkies should also take a 20% pay cut for supporting the stupid lies.

Sure, right after the Tories do the same (and retroactively, at that) for getting the province into the mess in the first place. But sure, lets blame the people who have to clean it up...

[fenwick16]

Is it too late to combine a convention centre and an enclosed stadium (not a dome, more like the Lucas Oil Stadium idea on a smaller scale). This would provide a use for the stadium when there are no concerts or sporting activities. A football field would provide 90,000 square feet of floor space for convention exhibits. I remember that the floor space of the Nova Centre was to be 60,000 square feet. Convention halls tend to be very spartan in design so it seems like a natural fit. After all, that is the way the Metro Centre was designed; for use as both an arena and convention exhibit hall.

[spaustin]

Originally Posted by Phalanx

Sure, right after the Tories do the same (and retroactively, at that) for getting the province into the mess in the first place. But sure, lets blame the people who have to clean it up...

Dexter shouldn't have made the promises, but he would be stupider still to try and keep them. Nova Scotia is slowly, but surely going over the financial cliff and has been for generations and we don't have any magic solutions in our cupboard to draw upon. No real assets to sell like NB and no great resource bonanza waiting to be tapped like NFLD. Worse yet is the impending demographic crunch and the long-term decline in our offshore (Sable has peaked and Deep Panuke is small). Things are only going to get worse for us if we don't decide to either cut programs or raise taxes or some combination of the two to get our house in order. Dexter may find it was a really bad time to have been elected premier.

[fenwick16]

Originally Posted by spaustin

Dexter shouldn't have made the promises, but he would be stupider still to try and keep them. Nova Scotia is slowly, but surely going over the financial cliff and has been for generations and we don't have any magic solutions in our cupboard to draw upon. No real assets to sell like NB and no great resource bonanza waiting to be tapped like NFLD. Worse yet is the impending demographic crunch and the long-term decline in our offshore (Sable has peaked and Deep Panuke is small). Things are only going to get worse for us if we don't decide to either cut programs or raise taxes or some combination of the two to get our house in order. Dexter may find it was a really bad time to have been elected premier.

OK. Everybody take off for Ontario, Alberta and British Columbia ASAP.

Why can't Nova Scotia find ways to prosper? Other parts of Canada and the US have found ways to prosper from high tech industries. Having a highly educated workforce is an asset.

[Empire]

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[MonctonRad]

Originally Posted by spaustin

Nova Scotia is slowly, but surely going over the financial cliff and has been for generations and we don't have any magic solutions in our cupboard to draw upon. No real assets to sell like NB and no great resource bonanza waiting to be tapped like NFLD.

I wouldn't use the NB Power sale as an example here........Shawn (idiot) Graham is giving NB Power to Hydro Quebec. The 4-5 billion dollars he is getting is only enough to cover the utilities debt. All he is doing is throwing his hands into the air and telling Uncle Jean Charest "here you take it". In return, HQ is getting the distribution network, the hydro dams and Point Lepreau. We are being taken to the cleaners!!

The potential for revenue generation from NB Power (including from power transmission rights) will be lost. By the terms of the deal, HQ will not have to pay provincial taxes. There is little guarantee that over time the majority of the management structure from the utility will not be moved to Quebec. The ability to form meaningful energy policy in the province will be severely compromised. Finally, the cupboard will be bare and the province will have nothing else significant that they could sell to cover our provincial debt.

This energy deal is a disaster for the province. Shawn Graham is the greatest ass possible. He will not be returned in the next election......but by that time it will be too late.

How could one man be this stupid!!!!

[sdm]

Originally Posted by Phalanx

Sure, right after the Tories do the same (and retroactively, at that) for getting the province into the mess in the first place. But sure, lets blame the people who have to clean it up...

Wait a second, tories were in power yes, however if your memory is short who equally pushed the tories (who at any time could be voted out) to increase programs and such. The NDP can share the blame.

Bottomline, Dexter is misleading when he says he had no idea. Just days before the government was voted out they tabled the budget, which i may add they submitted (NDP).

[Empire]

Originally Posted by MonctonRad

I wouldn't use the NB Power sale as an example here........Shawn (idiot) Graham is giving NB Power to Hydro Quebec. The 4-5 billion dollars he is getting is only enough to cover the utilities debt. All he is doing is throwing his hands into the air and telling Uncle Jean Charest "here you take it". In return, HQ is getting the distribution network, the hydro dams and Point Lepreau. We are being taken to the cleaners!!

I agree. This is another Churchill Falls in the making. Ten years from now when comercial quantities of gas are discovered in NB who is going to build and operate 500 megawatt gas fired generating stations, HYDRO QUEBEC thats who. NB will not benifit from being next door to the states as HQ will control the province. The lower power bills for industry for the next five years in NB will end with that five year honeymoon. After that industry will move to Quebec where rates will be half of NB. It is too bad for NB.

[sdm]

Originally Posted by fenwick16

OK. Everybody take off for Ontario, Alberta and British Columbia ASAP.

Why can't Nova Scotia find ways to prosper? Other parts of Canada and the US have found ways to prosper from high tech industries. Having a highly educated workforce is an asset.

Simple, Nova Scotia is VERY un-business friendly.

Yes Uranium mining did have negative impacts in the past, but with proper rules it could provide huge returns, yet the province without looking into after many decades decides for us that no we aren't going to allow that.

Why not invest seriously into renewable resources in power (tidal, wind farms in the water where no NIMBY can say squat) and sell it to the US who are looking for greener, cleaner ways. Even get Danny to fork out and send the Churchill falls lines through NS.

Its endless, but as usual we elect (not that there is overwhelming choices) people who have no vision for us.

Look at HRM by Design that cap'd height to keep everyone happy. Think of all the tax revenue that would be created if density was allowed in the core, with all the associated costs of benefits of less need for expense related items due to urban sprawl.

[Empire]

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[Phalanx]

Originally Posted by sdm

Wait a second, tories were in power yes, however if your memory is short who equally pushed the tories (who at any time could be voted out) to increase programs and such. The NDP can share the blame.

Bottomline, Dexter is misleading when he says he had no idea. Just days before the government was voted out they tabled the budget, which i may add they submitted (NDP).

Not so much. The PCs were in power for almost a decade, and almost half of that was as a majority government. Even after becoming a minority government, they wouldn't fall unless the issue being voted on is a confidence motion... so no, they couldn't be 'voted out at any time'. Budgets are, by default, confidence moments, but this is where compromise comes into play. The budget is still drawn up by the sitting government, not the opposition parties - it is still their responsibility to ensure that the provinces finances are sound. If they have to concede a point for the sake of compromise, then they should understand that they may well have to cut from somewhere else. The last government didn't seem to grasp this and made many poor fiscal decisions.

The PCs were still in the driver's seat, and still have to be accountable for bad decision making.

Originally Posted by Empire

The NDP gov brought down the Tories because they said they couldn't balance the budget. What part of that didn't Dexter understand? When he says it is a surprise to find out the books are in bad shape IT"S A LIE.

Dexter knew full well that balancing the budget was impossible, that tax hikes would be necessary and programs would have to cut. He chose to get elected by preying on a very gullible electorate. The s^%* hasn't hit the fan yet. This province is hanging on by a thread and it is up to Stevie Harper how bad he wants to punish this province for voting in a majority NDP gov for all the wrong reasons. If the feds choose to cut back on federal transfer payments then Mr. Dexter will have to jack up the HST by more than 2% points and we will still be going in the hole.

I'll agree that Dexter is guilty of over-promising, but how many politicians aren't? And even if he hadn't made those promises, he was likely going to get elected. We've had 10 years of Tory governments, and people wanted a change. The Liberals were too weak this time around. And I still can't understand why you think the federal government is justified in 'punishing' the province just because it didn't elect a Conservative government. How in the hell is that justifiable? It sounds like a system more at home in Iran than Canada. The federal government is responsible to all Canadians. You don't win votes or respect by poking people in the eye, but that's exactly what you're saying should happen.

[fenwick16]

My predication is that in the short term the Nova Scotia financial revenue will improve because of increasing natural gas prices (this has occurred over the past couple of months) and the resulting higher royalties (I am quite sure that NS does receive offshore royalties). The NDP will probably get credit for the improving revenue stream and take credit for balancing the books next year even though they have nothing to do with world natural gas prices.

I thought Rodney MacDonald was doing a good job as Premier and was promoting Halifax as a financial center. The Nova Scotia economy has actually done better than most of the rest of Canada in withstanding the current recession. I think Rodney MacDonald got a raw deal when he lost the election and NS is the one that will lose from it. I don't think Dexter will have the same personal appeal as Rodney MacDonald when it comes to attracting business to the province.

[Phalanx]

This editorial in today's Herald sums up what happened with the province's finances. This isn't the right forum for it, so I won't post the full content of the piece, but it's worth a read.

I'm gonna quote the most relevant section, though:

Again, the answer is in the numbers. From 2003-2004 through 2008-2009, Mr. O’Neill wrote, Nova Scotia was the beneficiary of extraordinary growth in federal payments, which rose by an average eight per cent a year, to the province.

Those large increases were largely fuelled by substantial, but temporary, hikes in offshore royalties and federal transfers.

Previous Tory governments, unfortunately, responded by using the extra dollars to hike program spending — by about 7.4 per cent a year, on average — over the same five-year period. With offshore royalties and federal transfers now dropping, the province simply doesn’t have the money to keep funding all those previous commitments.

"In all categories save community services, program spending grew at a substantially higher rate than would be sustainable over the long term," wrote Mr. O’Neill."

In other words, everything looked good, but the provinces financial house was built on sand.

[fenwick16]

Originally Posted by Phalanx

This editorial in today's Herald sums up what happened with the province's finances. This isn't the right forum for it, so I won't post the full content of the piece, but it's worth a read.

I'm gonna quote the most relevant section, though:

In other words, everything looked good, but the provinces financial house was built on sand.

This is an interesting article. However, the Nova Scotia deficit seems tiny (fortunately) compared to the Ontario deficit, Canadian Federal deficit and US deficit ( http://www.thestar.com/news/canada/a...-than-expected ). It seems like the Ontario financial house was built on quick-sand. Unfortunately, this might be a drag on the Nova Scotia economy through lower transfer payments as Ontario increasingly becomes a have-not province.

[Phalanx]

Yes, Ontario has been in a bad spot since the early 90s. The economic downturn during the late 80s, mismanagement by the NDP, and then PC governments, the rising dollar and heavy dependence on manufacturing and exports to the US haven't helped.

Nova Scotia's deficit is small in comparison, but so is our population and our economy.

Maybe we should start a topic on provincial finances in the business and politics sub-forum.

[hfx_chris]

Maybe you guys could continue this discussion elsewhere, so we can get back to discussing the possibilities of a future stadium in HRM?

[beyeas]

Originally Posted by fenwick16

I thought Rodney MacDonald was doing a good job as Premier and was promoting Halifax as a financial center. The Nova Scotia economy has actually done better than most of the rest of Canada in withstanding the current recession. I think Rodney MacDonald got a raw deal when he lost the election and NS is the one that will lose from it. I don't think Dexter will have the same personal appeal as Rodney MacDonald when it comes to attracting business to the province.

I agree that in the long term Dexter won't have great appeal. I don't disagree with having to decrease spending costs etc (the real debate is how to do it, not whether we have to do it), but where I am pissed at Dexter is that he either lied or was stupid when he promised to be able to balance the budget with no spending cuts or tax increases. That was simply idiotic since even the average joe could see that this was coming. It may have helped them get elected in the 1st place, but in the end they lose all credibility.
[there you go Barrington_South... I told you I would be happy to criticize the NDP when they deserved it! *grin*]

I don't agree though that Rodney got a raw deal. He may have done some things right (e.g. promoted a CBD in Halifax), however the view from the ground was him stumbling from one issue to another, and basically just reacting to crises rather than leading.

At the end of the day, I can't stand any of them. Dexter is a liar, Rodney was a buffoon, and it is easy for MacNeil sitting in the cheap seats to say whatever he wants when it is really just that he can criticize based on the fact that the Libs haven't had to make a real policy decision in over a decade.

[fenwick16]

Back to the topic of a stadium. This quote from Wishblade was in the Central Library section:

Originally Posted by Wishblade

its simple. a new venue equals better facilities, and a larger seating capacity generally means larger events can be held there, thus filling more seats.

And the metro centre actually sells out quite a bit for events.

However, they are talking about a 12,000 - 15,000 seat facility (this was in the call for proposals). This isn't going to benefit the Mooseheads since their owner Bobby Smith already said that they don't need a larger Metro Centre to play in. So going to a bigger facility might mean a few extra concerts. However, if they are planning to spend $150 million then why not go much bigger and have an enclosed stadium with 30,000 bench style seats that will allow for events that even a new Metro Centre won't be able to host; large concerts for example (maybe get U2 to come to Halifax since they would be able to pack at least 40,000 into such a facility). And why not build it so that it can be a convention hall also (example AlamoDome). Now I have said that I don't really want a dome however, an enclosed stadium with lots of large windows for natural lighting would change my mind. This really would complement the Metro Centre whereas having the Metro Centre and a new Metro Centre will do little for Halifax. The only way this would make sense would be if Halifax was going for an NHL team which it really isn't ready for.