Ottawa Macdonald-Cartier International Airport (YOW/CYOW)

[nredding]

Originally Posted by mxg308

It appears starting July 1st and only for the summer that Air Canada is shifting AC888 earlier and it's now scheduled to depart at 18:40. Not sure if this was discussed previously. I guess with the Max out of service they are juggling the schedule.

That's awful. I'm flying to LHR in August and a late evening flight with a late morning arrival is quite convenient as you can get some sleep on the plane. By arriving at 0630 London time (0130 Ottawa time) you won't have slept at all!

[RomanR27]

Dummy bookings still show the mainline A320 for now. It's unfortunate to lose that.

If they kept in the summer, Rouge 319s are better for capacity than E90s, at least.

[Truenorth00]

I am curious to see what AC does with Transat's services out of YOW post-merger. All of TS' current destinations have year-round coverage from YUL and YYZ. Makes more sense to feed those in my opinion. Even if they lose a bit to Sunwing at YOW. Allows all those destinations to go to Rouge or mainline widebodies year-round. Flying a Rouge 767 with a stopover in YUL or YYZ still beats flying a WG narrowbody in my opinion.

And they can stick with much smaller aircraft seasonally from YOW, if needed. Here's where the CSeries/A220 would really shine:

http://www.gcmap.com/mapui?P=yow-puj...SG=0.8&SU=mach

[Truenorth00]

Originally Posted by nredding

That's awful. I'm flying to LHR in August and a late evening flight with a late morning arrival is quite convenient as you can get some sleep on the plane. By arriving at 0630 London time (0130 Ottawa time) you won't have slept at all!

Unless you're in J, most people aren't really sleeping well on the plane anyway. Most business travelers are getting there just in time to freshen up and get to work for 8am. From their perspective, this is decent timing.

Understandably crappy for everyone else. You won't even get your hotel room till 3pm. So either your luggage is in airport or hotel lockup or you lug it around.

But we live in a world where business travelers largely determine flight schedules for business destinations.

[CityTech]

I've always wondered why eastbound transatlantics are always red eyes. It would be nice to have a 9am or so departure so you arrive in Europe late evening and can just go to bed.

[Truenorth00]

Originally Posted by CityTech

I've always wondered why eastbound transatlantics are always red eyes. It would be nice to have a 9am or so departure so you arrive in Europe late evening and can just go to bed.

Business travelers. Especially those actually traveling in J. They sleep on the plane and go straight to work on arrival. The justification for paying J fares often includes the cost and per diem avoidance of an extra night.

[Tesladom]

Originally Posted by CityTech

I've always wondered why eastbound transatlantics are always red eyes. It would be nice to have a 9am or so departure so you arrive in Europe late evening and can just go to bed.

Long eastbound flights are typically red eyes, that allows the westbound flights to be same day. The opposite time configurations would be bad for westbound flights (since most planes do a back&forth)

[HighwayStar]

Originally Posted by Truenorth00

Unless you're in J, most people aren't really sleeping well on the plane anyway. Most business travelers are getting there just in time to freshen up and get to work for 8am. Decent time.

I'm on the side of nredding on this. It's a lousy time to arrive.

When I travel to the UK for work... J or (more commonly) not.. I get in the day before any meetings. Getting off a plane (J or not) at 6:30am and going straight to meetings just doesn't work for me on overseas flights.

I liked arriving late morning.. then hanging in there and getting other work done the rest of the day.. then getting a good nights sleep before going at it.

[Tesladom]

Originally Posted by Truenorth00

I am curious to see what AC does with Transat's services out of YOW post-merger.

I would think that AC will either terminate Rouge or terminate Transat to south destinations, can't see them keeping both going, likely merge the 2 into one of the banners
I think the regulators will likely balk at this acquisition anyway, AC will own too much of the Transatlantic market (80%+), I don't see it going through as-is

[Truenorth00]

Originally Posted by HighwayStar

I'm on the side of nredding on this. It's a lousy time to arrive.

When I travel to the UK for work... J or (more commonly) not.. I get in the day before any meetings. Getting off a plane (J or not) at 6:30am and going straight to meetings just doesn't work for me on overseas flights.

I liked arriving late morning.. then hanging in there and getting other work done the rest of the day.. then getting a good nights sleep before going at it.

As someone who never gets J when I travel, I am with you on this. And unless there's some reason I can't travel the day before, this is exactly what I do.

But the reality is that most business travelers are not us. They want to get a full day in on this end, sleep a bit on the plane, and then go to work on arrival. And that is who the service is designed around: the front half of the plane that is most profitable.

Let's be honest. There's also some slot prioritization going on. AC prefers to offer a breadth of departure times out of YYZ. And having some of those flights arrive mid and late morning is far more important to them than timing the YOW flight correctly. So if slots are an issue (as they are at LHR), they'll send AC888 earlier than mess with their YYZ schedule.

Going to LHR, there's an easy workaround I prefer. Take the 9am (AC868) out of YYZ. Leave early from YOW. Arrive at 9pm in LHR. Get to your hotel in London before midnight, just in time for bed. This only works if you don't have to connect. Alternatively, want to travel overnight and arrive mid-morning? Take AC858 departing at 11pm from Toronto. You can leave YOW as late as 850pm.

[RomanR27]

I am surprised the timing of AC889 hasn't changed, that plane will be sitting at LHR for about 10 hours.

[Truenorth00]

Originally Posted by Tesladom

I would think that AC will either terminate Rouge or terminate Transat to south destinations, can't see them keeping both going, likely merge the 2 into one of the banners

Absolutely. I wasn't suggesting the ops would stay as they are. I am mostly curious how the schedules will change and impact YOW. You look at TS out of YOW, it's all seasonal Sun destination flights. And all of those destinations are easy to consolidate at YUL and YYZ.

Originally Posted by Tesladom

I think the regulators will likely balk at this acquisition anyway, AC will own too much of the Transatlantic market (80%+), I don't see it going through as-is

We'll see. The combined carries would be around 63% according to this source:

https://flytrippers.com/air-canada-to-buy-air-transat/

Position wise, this ain't great for either Canada or the US:

https://www.anna.aero/2018/04/18/tra...airport-table/

A merged AC/Transat would be massively dominant in Canada and top dog across the Atlantic even for North America. But that would also bolster YYZ and YUL positions as major hubs for Americans.

They may be able to successfully argue that the rise of TATL LCCs and TATL capable narrowbodies would negate such a dominant market position. And that AC is positioned to slowly gain on TS anyway.

Or maybe the merger goes through with some concessions on slots and landing rights to other carriers.

[YOWflier]

I'm on team "earlier departure is better". You get the earlier arrival in LHR and access to the morning bank of connections. Earlier slots are more expensive so 888's use on it I think is telling.

[HighwayStar]

Originally Posted by ac888yow

I'm on team "earlier departure is better". You get the earlier arrival in LHR and access to the morning bank of connections. Earlier slots are more expensive so 888s use on it I think is telling.

For FRA... I'm also in this camp, as I'm *A and use FRA for onward connections.

When I fly to LHR.. it's typically to stay in the UK and don't need a connection.. so I like(d) the late departure

[roger1818]

Originally Posted by ac888yow

I'm on team "earlier departure is better". You get the earlier arrival in LHR and access to the morning bank of connections. Earlier slots are more expensive so 888s use on it I think is telling.

For those who are connecting, you are probably right, but for those travelling to London as their destination, the earlier departure is worse. You end up stuck in rush hour for your trip into London, and you will likely have an even longer wait until you can get into your hotel. I can't imagine many wanting to arrive at their final destination at what feels like 1:30 AM so that they can put in a full days work. Not many can fall asleep at 19:00 or even 20:00, so your night will be very short.

Originally Posted by RomanR27

I am surprised the timing of AC889 hasn't changed, that plane will be sitting at LHR for about 10 hours.

Actually the timing of AC889 is changing, though a month earlier. Currently it departs at 13:05 but as of June 1, it will depart at 16:15.

[CityTech]

Originally Posted by HighwayStar

For FRA... I'm also in this camp, as I'm *A and use FRA for onward connections.

When I fly to LHR.. it's typically to stay in the UK and don't need a connection.. so I like(d) the late departure

The 838 to FRA was moved a lot later this year.. It doesn't land in FRA until 10:55am local time.

With 838 I imagine reliability is paramount as almost all traffic is connecting with very little O/D to Frankfurt specifically, so any significant delay means AC having to rebook a potentially massive number of missed connections. Making sure the flight lands at FRA on time every time is critical and I wouldn't be surprised if they moved the flight later just to ensure this.

[Dominion301]

Originally Posted by RomanR27

Dummy bookings still show the mainline A320 for now. It's unfortunate to lose that.

If they kept in the summer, Rouge 319s are better for capacity than E90s, at least.

Sorry my bad. In my post I said about wondering about FLL and summer 2020. That should have said MCO, which is year-round. So instead, it's actually I wonder if FLL will return to year-round with Rouge and will Rouge remain on YOW-MCO next summer?

In any event, this summer's MCO flights are on mainline 319s.

For YOW-LHR's time change, it doesn't seem like this has any effect on the daily 763 Rapidair, which still departs at 1800 this summer. I guess the 763 rotation will be YYZ-YOW-LHR-YOW-FRA-YOW-YYZ.

[Truenorth00]

Originally Posted by ac888yow

I'm on team "earlier departure is better". You get the earlier arrival in LHR and access to the morning bank of connections. Earlier slots are more expensive so 888's use on it I think is telling.

Given that LHR is not a *A hub, I really wonder how many connections from YOW there are there. Reaching late morning was fine because you make the mid-day/afternoon bank.

I don't doubt that business travelers are driving this decision based on your logic and the desire to go to work right away.

[YOWflier]

I still prefer the early departure even when terminating in London. The early departure means I'm eating dinner more or less at the usual time, doing some pre-sleep work at more or less the usual time, and falling asleep at more or less the usual time. Of course the sleep is interrupted for arrival but as long as I've gotten 2-3 hours I can get through the new day. Flying in J I get my lie flat and can opt for the express meal if I want to maximize sleep. It's a no brainer in every way for me vs. departing at 10+ PM.

[Truenorth00]

Originally Posted by ac888yow

I still prefer the early departure even when terminating in London. The early departure means I'm eating dinner more or less at the usual time, doing some pre-sleep work at more or less the usual time, and falling asleep at more or less the usual time. Of course the sleep is interrupted for arrival but as long as I've gotten 2-3 hours I can get through the new day. Flying in J I get my lie flat and can opt for the express meal if I want to maximize sleep. It's a no brainer in every way for me vs. departing at 10+ PM.

Exactly. As I said earlier, this makes sense for everyone at the front of the airplane who has a bed. Less so for everyone else. But the rest of us aren't bringing home the bacon for AC.

Anybody who wants to depart earlier or later can take the one stop through YYZ or YUL. What I personally do when traveling to LHR.

I'm still really curious how many connections there are at LHR from YOW.....