Ottawa Macdonald-Cartier International Airport (YOW/CYOW)

[Dominion301]

Originally Posted by roger1818

I know this is the YOW thread but do you know anything about HFR? The plan is to for VIA Rail to have its own track (to avoid interference with the freight railways) on a route that is shorter than the existing route from Ottawa to Toronto (though Montreal/Toronto will be slightly further).

Where did you get the idea it would only reduce travel time by 45 minutes between Ottawa and Toronto (that sounds like the Montreal/Toronto time savings)? According to this article from the OBJ, the travel time to about 2.5 hours.

I agree that HFR is by no means certain and if approved, it will take over a decade for the plan to be fully implemented, but according to this Q&A, we would start to see benefits of HFR within 4 years of approval and funding.

Yes I'm quite familiar with the HFR proposal using the abandoned CP corridor through Peterborough and restore service to Trois-Rivières, but yes I didn't realize the estimated time savings are supposed to be greater than 45 minutes. However, that 2.5 hour trip time might not be realistic given they'd be contingent on Via gaining exclusive use of the Toronto-Peterborough CP subdivision that is still in use.

@TrueNorth, you also raise a lot of excellent points too. A lot of 'what ifs' have to come to fruition first before any of this is possible. Budget 2018 pretty much announced funding for more 'HFR studies' but nothing beyond that at this point. Those studies alone will take a least a couple of year to complete. I still say anything remotely close to 2.5 hours is at least a decade away. https://globalnews.ca/news/4302234/h...funding-spent/

The other thing to consider is if the hyperloop concept ever gets off the ground, that dooms both the short-haul plane and the train (at least between major cities)!

Back to the airport, I agree that expansion - building or runway isn't needed anytime soon (the taxiway widening makes sense though). A parallel runway will only ever be needed if some airline wanted to build a medium to large sized hub here that would double or triple traffic from current levels...not likely. Even if Porter built a mini Q400 (A220) regional hub some day, adding a couple of million pax a year, the traffic could easily be handled with the current runway capacity.

Same with the terminal. Aircraft movements are lower now than a few years ago. The difference is the average aircraft size is much bigger. Gone are the days of 19 seater Bearskin service taking up a couple of gates with few passengers. Even the 37 seat DH1s are down to only what the 2x YXU and 1x to YUL. Ground gates 29 and 30 currently see 1 flight a day on average. There's another 18 flights a day of capacity from those two gates alone...assuming the addition of loading bridges if the need ever arose, prior to any actual expansion of the building's footprint. Reconfigurations like the security and food court revamps within the building's existing footprint, will add a lot of terminal capacity.

[mxg308]

I'm not sure the that the Ottawa Airport Authority should just give up because of HFR although I wouldn't put it past them. Despite being close to YUL and YYZ, YOW could differentiate itself by pitching itself as a low cost alternative to LCCs. I realize that Canada is much smaller than the US but if BOS, LGA, JFK, EWR, PHL, IAD, DCA, BDL and BWI can all thrive in relative close proximity, I can't see why YOW can't carve out its own niche? Whether that's attracting an LCC, Porter or some future airline. I also believe the Amtrak does code shares as well in that northeast corridor as well. It's time to dream a bit bigger for Ottawa and stop thinking of ourselves as suburbs to Montreal and Toronto. How else are we going to grow industry? I'm sure Ciena, Shopify or Nokia would be thrilled if they could get access to a few more direct flights out of Ottawa.

[Truenorth00]

Originally Posted by Dominion301

However, that 2.5 hour trip time might not be realistic given they'd be contingent on Via gaining exclusive use of the Toronto-Peterborough CP subdivision that is still in use.

@TrueNorth, you also raise a lot of excellent points too. A lot of 'what ifs' have to come to fruition first before any of this is possible. Budget 2018 pretty much announced funding for more 'HFR studies' but nothing beyond that at this point. Those studies alone will take a least a couple of year to complete. I still say anything remotely close to 2.5 hours is at least a decade away. https://globalnews.ca/news/4302234/h...funding-spent/

Again. This is not High Speed Rail. And that is the entire point of HFR. It's specifically not to build high speed rail, which has also been a losing proposition in Canada, as soon as bill comes in. High Frequency Rail is exactly what the name says. It's what would be normal passenger rail service in most of the developed world, where trains operate at hourly to semi-hourly service at speeds between 100-125 mph.

This is what makes the proposal so attractive. It's not all that different than building a long GO Train or even CP/CN line. And none of those take 10 years of studies to pull off.

Originally Posted by Dominion301

The other thing to consider is if the hyperloop concept ever gets off the ground, that dooms both the short-haul plane and the train (at least between major cities)!

Hyperloop is a troll that Elon Musk put forward to cancel the California High Speed Rail project, which might hurt sales in Tesla's home and largest market. That people still think this is economically feasible is beyond me.

Most of us who are actual engineers consider it a joke. Even Elon doesn't put any of his own money into Hyperloop. And he puts in money into lots of crazy ideas. That should tell you a lot.

Originally Posted by Dominion301

Even if Porter built a mini Q400 (A220) regional hub some day, adding a couple of million pax a year, the traffic could easily be handled with the current runway capacity.

Porter built a hub at YTZ because that was the only way to protect themselves from predatory competition by AC and WS. YOW offers no such protection. If they opened a hub here, AC or WS would follow and undercut them until they quit or were bankrupt.

Originally Posted by Dominion301

Same with the terminal. Aircraft movements are lower now than a few years ago. The difference is the average aircraft size is much bigger. ....Reconfigurations like the security and food court revamps within the building's existing footprint, will add a lot of terminal capacity.

This is a good trend. And I'm happy those changes are coming along.

Originally Posted by mxg308

I'm not sure the that the Ottawa Airport Authority should just give up because of HFR although I wouldn't put it past them. Despite being close to YUL and YYZ, YOW could differentiate itself by pitching itself as a low cost alternative to LCCs.

Note. I've never said they should give up. I said they should wait to see what develops, so they can plan a more appropriate strategy. HFR will move some passengers to Montreal. But will enable YOW to also pull some passengers from YUL. Focusing on LCCs is the way to go, as you've correctly pointed out.

YOW should be ready to jump in and plan for regular bus transfers to Fallowfield and Tremblay for those LCC pax who may be arriving from Montreal or Eastern Ontario by train.

Originally Posted by mxg308

I realize that Canada is much smaller than the US but if BOS, LGA, JFK, EWR, PHL, IAD, DCA, BDL and BWI can all thrive in relative close proximity, I can't see why YOW can't carve out its own niche?

The Bos-Wash corridor has 52 million people in it and is responsible for 20% of US GDP. There's nothing even close to comparable in our case.

And that's before we talk about the fact that the Americans invest in their commercial aviation sector, and don't treat it like a cash cow with airport rents, high fuel taxes, etc.

Our context is closer to the Barcelona-Madrid corridor. Both those cities are quite contextually similar to Montreal and Toronto in distance apart, population size, GDP, etc. We'd be Zaragoza in this context.

Originally Posted by mxg308

Whether that's attracting an LCC, Porter or some future airline. I also believe the Amtrak does code shares as well in that northeast corridor as well. It's time to dream a bit bigger for Ottawa and stop thinking of ourselves as suburbs to Montreal and Toronto. How else are we going to grow industry? I'm sure Ciena, Shopify or Nokia would be thrilled if they could get access to a few more direct flights out of Ottawa.

Ironically, the best way to grow Ottawa would actually be to make it more of a suburb of Montreal with High Speed Rail, that makes commuting to and doing business in Montreal dead easy. If we had that, more companies might actually consider locating in Ottawa. This is something people really don't get. High speed rail increases your effective mobility radius. Where you could cover 100km in an hour by car, you can now 200 km by train. That gives a business a large pool of potential employees and customers.

If we had HSR to Montreal and Toronto, a lot more businesses would actually see Ottawa as a legitimate alternative to both those cities. And in the case of Montreal, HSR would basically turn Ottawa and Montreal into one giant urban region. The growth that would bring would actually drive more direct flights to new destinations, especially transborder.

I wish people in this city actually understood how development and all forms of public transport and infrastructure are inter-linked. These aren't zero sum situations where Montreal or Toronto has to lose out for Ottawa to grow.

[roger1818]

Originally Posted by Dominion301

However, that 2.5 hour trip time might not be realistic given they'd be contingent on Via gaining exclusive use of the Toronto-Peterborough CP subdivision that is still in use.

CP's Peterboro Subdivision (Agencourt to Havelock) is a branch line, and I don't think it sees many trains a day. I am sure CP would be happy to give it to VIA to upgrade and maintain in exchange for free access to the line overnight.

[OTSkyline]

I often look at YOW, YUL and YYZ when purchasing airline tickets and I've always found Ottawa to be the lowest price or very close (regardless of if the flight is direct from Ottawa or includes a stop in YYZ or YUL).

And the last thing I want to do, before or after a long trip is have to take a train for 1h to go back to Ottawa from Montreal.

If there would be a significant cost savings to book a train to/from Ottawa-Montreal and fly out of Montreal (which I doubt), I suspect perhaps half of the people would consider it, without it, who would want to do such itinerary?

[roger1818]

Originally Posted by OTSkyline

And the last thing I want to do, before or after a long trip is have to take a train for 1h to go back to Ottawa from Montreal.

You would rather wait a few hours for one of the nine daily 47 minute flights from YUL? Or would you rather drive?

If there would be a significant cost savings to book a train to/from Ottawa-Montreal and fly out of Montreal (which I doubt), I suspect perhaps half of the people would consider it, without it, who would want to do such itinerary?

I suspect it isn't so much about price, but convenience. I would pay a bit more for a direct flight out of Ottawa, but if I had to connect, a fast, frequent, reliable train to a direct flight out of YUL would be my second choice (especially in winter where flights are frequently cancelled or delayed). Currently VIA isn't any of those, but with dedicated tracks, all three will improve greatly.

When touring Europe, it is common to fly into one city an out off another. I might fly into London (which I could do out of Ottawa) but home from say Copenhagen or Rome (or vice versa). YOW might get direct flights from a few more cities in Europe, but YUL will always have more and being able to consider it as an alternate local airport for one way would be an attractive option (even if I had to take transit or a taxi between the train station and the airport in Ottawa).

[Truenorth00]

Originally Posted by OTSkyline

I often look at YOW, YUL and YYZ when purchasing airline tickets and I've always found Ottawa to be the lowest price or very close (regardless of if the flight is direct from Ottawa or includes a stop in YYZ or YUL).

You cross-shop airports that 500km apart and think a 1 hr train ride is the problem???

Originally Posted by OTSkyline

And the last thing I want to do, before or after a long trip is have to take a train for 1h to go back to Ottawa from Montreal.

And yet people have no issues taking the airline coaches to Dorval for over an hour after a transatlantic flight.

Originally Posted by OTSkyline

If there would be a significant cost savings to book a train to/from Ottawa-Montreal and fly out of Montreal (which I doubt), I suspect perhaps half of the people would consider it, without it, who would want to do such itinerary?

It's not just about savings. It's also about the destinations offered and convenience. It's not like YOW has a wide selection of destinations offered. So there's a high probability you have to connect. Except there's Oneworld or SkyTeam airlines in Canada which will fly you between Ottawa and Toronto or Ottawa and Montreal to connect. So now you just hop and the train and take the flight you want from Montreal.

Originally Posted by roger1818

You would rather wait a few hours for one of the nine daily 47 minute flights from YUL? Or would you rather drive?

Exactly. The comments here are strange. As if so many people don't drive or take coaches to Dorval for an international flight today.

Originally Posted by roger1818

I suspect it isn't so much about price, but convenience. I would pay a bit more for a direct flight out of Ottawa, but if I had to connect, a fast, frequent, reliable train to a direct flight out of YUL would be my second choice (especially in winter where flights are frequently cancelled or delayed). Currently VIA isn't any of those, but with dedicated tracks, all three will improve greatly.

Bingo. We live in a place where the risk of snow disrupting your travel plans takes up 5 months of the year. A reliable rail connection that can't be shut down (like roads or rail) is most useful.

And an hourly schedule would be huge. You can plan your connections to arrive comfortably and do whatever you need to do pre-departure.

Originally Posted by roger1818

When touring Europe, it is common to fly into one city an out off another. I might fly into London (which I could do out of Ottawa) but home from say Copenhagen or Rome (or vice versa). YOW might get direct flights from a few more cities in Europe, but YUL will always have more and being able to consider it as an alternate local airport for one way would be an attractive option (even if I had to take transit or a taxi between the train station and the airport in Ottawa).

Europe has also codeshares with rail at many major hubs. Example, if you fly Air France, you next "flight" when you connect at CDG maybe a train:

https://www.airfrance.us/US/en/commo..._airfrance.htm

I think people who find this idea foreign, haven't traveled much. In the rest of the developed world, aviation is reserved for trips > 500-800 km. Anything less than that is usually quicker and more convenient by rail. YOW wastes way too many slots with puddle jumpers to Toronto and Montreal.

[bikegypsy]

Originally Posted by Truenorth00

YOW wastes way too many slots with puddle jumpers to Toronto and Montreal.

Because there's a demand for it. Quite frankly, the vast majority of travelers who fly to Montreal are doing so because they're connecting to an other flight and that entering the system is far easier and more pleasant at YOW than it is at YUL.

[qprcanada]

Originally Posted by OTSkyline

I often look at YOW, YUL and YYZ when purchasing airline tickets and I've always found Ottawa to be the lowest price or very close (regardless of if the flight is direct from Ottawa or includes a stop in YYZ or YUL).

And the last thing I want to do, before or after a long trip is have to take a train for 1h to go back to Ottawa from Montreal.

If there would be a significant cost savings to book a train to/from Ottawa-Montreal and fly out of Montreal (which I doubt), I suspect perhaps half of the people would consider it, without it, who would want to do such itinerary?

The problem is when you want to fly with a LCC or ULCC out of YUL because the savings are substantial over a flight from YOW. Case in point is the Mexican airline Interjet and their cheap flights from YUL to CUN and MEX.

At the present time your only options are to drive or take a VIA train because those carriers don't have code share agreements with airlines that fly out of YOW.

I for one would welcome HFR from Ottawa to Montreal.

[lrt's friend]

Originally Posted by qprcanada

The problem is when you want to fly with a LCC or ULCC out of YUL because the savings are substantial over a flight from YOW. Case in point is the Mexican airline Interjet and their cheap flights from YUL to CUN and MEX.

At the present time your only options are to drive or take a VIA train because those carriers don't have code share agreements with airlines that fly out of YOW.

I for one would welcome HFR from Ottawa to Montreal.

The feds don't appear in any hurry to invest in VIA HFR unfortunately. If the Liberals won't invest in it, certainly a possible 2019 Conservative government will not.

[YOWflier]

Thankfully the lunacy being dreamed about by some in the last few pages won't come to fruition anytime soon, if ever. In the meantime those of us who give a shit about our city will continue to support the local situation while the rest of you schlep it up and down the highway.

[Truenorth00]

Originally Posted by qprcanada

The problem is when you want to fly with a LCC or ULCC out of YUL because the savings are substantial over a flight from YOW. Case in point is the Mexican airline Interjet and their cheap flights from YUL to CUN and MEX.

At the present time your only options are to drive or take a VIA train because those carriers don't have code share agreements with airlines that fly out of YOW.

I for one would welcome HFR from Ottawa to Montreal.

Nobody but AC really flies between YOW and YUL. This means you either fly and connect with Air Canada or drive to YUL if you want to use a non-Star Alliance carrier.

It's amazing that nobody here sees that as a problem. Do people not realize how much high travel limit the growth of Ottawa?

Originally Posted by lrt's friend

The feds don't appear in any hurry to invest in VIA HFR unfortunately. If the Liberals won't invest in it, certainly a possible 2019 Conservative government will not.

We'll see. There's plenty floating out there, that indicates there might be something in this year's budget, especially if it gives the provincial government a way out . If not, then I agree that the idea is dead.

And to be fair, polls seem to indicate that the Liberals will survive the election.

Originally Posted by ac888yow

Thankfully the lunacy being dreamed about by some in the last few pages won't come to fruition anytime soon, if ever. In the meantime those of us who give a shit about our city will continue to support the local situation while the rest of you schlep it up and down the highway.

I really don't get this. Is it lunacy when the large aviation hubs in Europe integrate rail? Are the folks who build high speed rail into Barcelona and Paris' airports lunatics? Are the HS2 folks pushing for an HSR connection at Heathrow insane in your books? And here we aren't even talking about high speed rail. We're talking about nothing more just regular full speed train service. What makes the idea of a regular rail service to Montreal "lunacy"? And why do you feel that support for such a service means the rest of us "don't give a shit about our city". Help me understand your thinking here.

Making Ottawa more accessible to the world is in the interest of all. And airplanes are not the only way to do it. I, for one, think, even our local businesses would appreciate rail service that gives Air Canada a run for its money. And I should hope that YOW would takes full advantage of any rail service to become the LCC hub for Eastern Ontario and Southern Quebec.

[roger1818]

Originally Posted by ac888yow

Thankfully the lunacy being dreamed about by some in the last few pages won't come to fruition anytime soon, if ever. In the meantime those of us who give a shit about our city will continue to support the local situation while the rest of you schlep it up and down the highway.

How is a proposal that will encourage AC (and to a lesser extent WS) offer flights to more destinations rather than diverting everyone to YYZ and YUL seen as not giving a shit about our city. I don’t get it. People on this forum complain that there aren’t enough destinations out of YOW yet something that will light a fire under AC to offer direct flights to more destinations if they don’t want to loose passengers to other airlines is considered a bad thing.

I guess 50 flights a day to YYZ (and hardly anywhere else) is good for YOW in your books.

[YOWflier]

My position on people using other airports to do their travel is well documented. On HFR I see a solution seeking a problem and people are dreaming if they think this will "light a fire" under the airlines to start more flights here. In fact I see nothing changing except more frequently running "empty" trains, at least in terms of service to/from Montreal. I've taken that VIA service at least bi weekly for the last 5 years and I see nothing suggesting a pent up demand for more (frequent) rail on this route. Toronto might be another story from what I read, by I don't travel that route.

Comments like "I guess 50 flights a day to YYZ is enough in your mind" are the exact opposite of what I'm all about.

[Dominion301]

On a happier note. Halifax continues to amass transatlantic service.

WestJet are shifting their YYT-DUB to YHZ next summer: https://www.newswire.ca/news-release...701072381.html

While everything but AC's LHR flight at YHZ is seasonal, how's this for a transatlantic offering:

LHR daily
LGW daily
DUB daily
CDG daily
GLA multiple weekly
KEF multiple weekly
FRA multiple weekly

Everything but FRA is on a 737NG or 737MAX...but the MAX is well within YOW's range for much of Europe. The YHZ Airport Authority's air service development team is pretty incredible.

[begratto]

Originally Posted by ac888yow

In fact I see nothing changing except more frequently running "empty" trains, at least in terms of service to/from Montreal. I've taken that VIA service at least bi weekly for the last 5 years and I see nothing suggesting a pent up demand for more (frequent) rail on this route. Toronto might be another story from what I read, by I don't travel that route.

Comments like "I guess 50 flights a day to YYZ is enough in your mind" are the exact opposite of what I'm all about.

I'd say there are two main reasons for this :
1) the train isn't faster than driving between Mtl and Ott at the moment. If taking the train was much faster than driving to the other city, more people would take it.
2) for people travelling from Montreal to Ottawa, the location of the train station in Ottawa is not convenient at all. Having to wait in line for a cab to get to downtown Ottawa adds to the travelling time (and costs). When the O-train is in service, maybe more business travellers will use transit to get downtown. I know I'll be one of them. It would be even better if Via included a O-train transfer when you purchase a train ticket.

Also, maybe your Ottawa-Montreal morning trains aren't full, but it isn't the case for the ones going from Montreal to Ottawa. Often, last minute booking is impossible. Same with late-afternoon trains coming back to Montreal.

[roger1818]

Originally Posted by ac888yow

My position on people using other airports to do their travel is well documented. On HFR I see a solution seeking a problem and people are dreaming if they think this will "light a fire" under the airlines to start more flights here.

I said destinations, not flights. Currently when travelling to a city without direct service from Ottawa, we have little choice but to accept a connection and AC knows that and will force a connection in YYZ, even if there is enough demand for a direct flight, because it is better for them. If you give people a better option with other airlines, the loss of modal share will encourage AC to provide more options to YOW.

In fact I see nothing changing except more frequently running "empty" trains, at least in terms of service to/from Montreal. I've taken that VIA service at least bi weekly for the last 5 years and I see nothing suggesting a pent up demand for more (frequent) rail on this route. Toronto might be another story from what I read, by I don't travel that route.

Which train numbers are you taking bi-weekly that are running "empty?" I only take the train to Montreal a few times a year, but when I do, it may not always be full, but it isn't anywhere close to empty either.

Much of the current lack of demand on the Ottawa-Montreal route relates to poor frequency and reliability (and speed to a lesser extent). Improving those will increase the ridership.

The Ottawa-Toronto train is an example of what happens when you increase the frequency. In recent years they have significantly increased the number of departures (they now have 10 per day) and demand has increased significantly, despite declines in reliability and speed. If we can similarly improve Ottawa-Montreal and Toronto-Montreal frequencies (and also improve the speed and reliability on all three routes), there should be a massive increase in ridership (VIA has estimated a 3.5 times the ridership, as shown in the table below, for what will likely be less than triple the number of departures).

It is kind of a no-brainier. People won't take the train if the schedule in one of the two directions doesn't work for them, so doubling a low frequency train will more than double the demand as there is a better chance that the schedule will work in both directions.

The other factor is that with the HFR plan, the Toronto-Montreal trains will travel through Ottawa, so many of the Ottawa-Montreal passengers will have started their journey in Toronto (or other points west of Ottawa), increasing the overall demand on the route

Comments like "I guess 50 flights a day to YYZ is enough in your mind" are the exact opposite of what I'm all about.

Fair enough. It was a knee-jerk reaction to your "give a shit about our city" comment and I apologize. In my mind, if we truly love our city, we should be promoting multiple modes of transportation to make it as easy as possible for people to visit us and not put YOW on this pedestal as the only gateway to Ottawa. Air is a very expensive and inefficient way of travelling short distances (under 600 km), so we should be encouraging other modes of transport to save YOW for destinations that air is best at.

[phil235]

Originally Posted by begratto

I'd say there are two main reasons for this :
1) the train isn't faster than driving between Mtl and Ott at the moment. If taking the train was much faster than driving to the other city, more people would take it.
2) for people travelling from Montreal to Ottawa, the location of the train station in Ottawa is not convenient at all. Having to wait in line for a cab to get to downtown Ottawa adds to the travelling time (and costs). When the O-train is in service, maybe more business travellers will use transit to get downtown. I know I'll be one of them. It would be even better if Via included a O-train transfer when you purchase a train ticket.

Also, maybe your Ottawa-Montreal morning trains aren't full, but it isn't the case for the ones going from Montreal to Ottawa. Often, last minute booking is impossible. Same with late-afternoon trains coming back to Montreal.

I would add that the current schedule is poorly timed and isn't frequent enough. Having no trains on weekdays between 6:30 am and 10:20 am just doesn't offer enough choice for most people. Likewise, the last train at 6:55 is way too early. More departures would clearly mean more uptake on that route.

[Dominion301]

Originally Posted by phil235

I would add that the current schedule is poorly timed and isn't frequent enough. Having no trains on weekdays between 6:30 am and 10:20 am just doesn't offer enough choice for most people. Likewise, the last train at 6:55 is way too early. More departures would clearly mean more uptake on that route.

As a result, I wouldn't be surprised if Montreal-Ottawa is nowadays Greyhound's most profitable route. I have a colleague who commutes daily into Ottawa from the West Island. He says there's 20 other people with him every day doing the same thing Monday-Friday.

[roger1818]

Originally Posted by phil235

I would add that the current schedule is poorly timed and isn't frequent enough. Having no trains on weekdays between 6:30 am and 10:20 am just doesn't offer enough choice for most people. Likewise, the last train at 6:55 is way too early. More departures would clearly mean more uptake on that route.

Tell me about it! A 6:30 departure is fine for day trippers so that you can get a full day in, but needlessly early if you are planning on staying for the week, but 10:20 means that you aren't into the office until after lunch. A departure sometime between 8:00 and 9:00 would be perfect as you can work on the train and still have most of the day in the office.

As for the evening, there used to be a later departure (about 8:30 PM and 20 minutes before that from Fallowfield) that I used to take. It was late enough that I could have dinner and a bit of an evening with the family and allowed me to get to my hotel around 11:00, so that I could get a good night sleep and get to work rested the next day. It was on the tail end of a train from Toronto, but without dedicated tracks, the schedule was unreliable and and a longer route for those travelling from Toronto to Montreal, so as a result it was never full and eventually got cancelled. HFR would make this type of train work better and thus more popular.