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  #9841  
Old Posted Apr 7, 2021, 12:33 PM
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I'm not quite sure of some of the cities you listed as something Salt Lake should emulate. IMO, I can think of many whose street engagements or environmental designs are far more worthy. For example, Tehran's typical street engagement is architecturally among the ugliest of any major city in the world. It does have some lovely mountain scenery nearby, but the majority of the city itself is a visual disaster, including the average landscaping (or lack thereof) design on its typical city center streets. It's unfortunate because the Persian people minus their brutal government control are among the most beautifully creative and artistic people in the world.

Los Angeles has a very large Persian community. It's amazing what the Persian people can do when given some freedom of choice.

Last edited by delts145; Apr 7, 2021 at 1:11 PM.
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  #9842  
Old Posted Apr 7, 2021, 1:46 PM
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I think trees and greenery are important for beautifying and cooling downtown. We can reduce temperatures between 2 and 8 degrees C in urban heat islands with strategic planting.

And increased greenery in our urban areas wouldn't really affect drought issues. 72% of our water goes to farming, most of it to crops that aren't appropriate for desert farming like alfalfa. That's where the reform is needed.
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  #9843  
Old Posted Apr 7, 2021, 2:03 PM
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Originally Posted by Atlas View Post
It's that 10-acre parking lot (Block 40) between 400 S and 500 S, Main St. and West Temple. It was actually an interesting place, once upon a time. I hope it can be again someday.





This side of downtown really needs some help. Here's a drone shot (a few years old) showing Block 40 on the right and the 370 South West Temple site in the center. It's kind of an urban desert between 400 S and 600 S, which is part of why I think there's a good case for "Midtown" being differentiated by name as that area comes into its own.


Source

Doesn’t the LDS Church own that block along with the other parking lot block between north and south temple. We are in the worst housing crisis the city has ever faced and the LDS church is allowed to continue hoarding land, and using it for giant surface parking lots... go figure.

The city also should’ve been requiring a lot more high-rise residential instead of all of these six story stucco apartment buildings that they’ve allowed for years... Now everyone’s going to start regretting the bad decisions to allow the land to be developed in such a low density way in the form of high housing costs.

As excited as I am to see North Temple get re-developed. I almost think that they should halt everything and implement new regulations that require any residential to be at least 15-20 stories high along that strip. We can’t continue to allow all of this low density residential.
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  #9844  
Old Posted Apr 7, 2021, 2:41 PM
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Originally Posted by ajiuO View Post
The city also should’ve been requiring a lot more high-rise residential instead of all of these six story stucco apartment buildings that they’ve allowed for years... Now everyone’s going to start regretting the bad decisions to allow the land to be developed in such a low density way in the form of high housing costs.

As excited as I am to see North Temple get re-developed. I almost think that they should halt everything and implement new regulations that require any residential to be at least 15-20 stories high along that strip. We can’t continue to allow all of this low density residential.
Six-story residential IS high density residential (especially compared to the typical density in SLC). And it's a lot less expensive than building 15-20 story high-rises. Any high-rise residential that goes up is going to cost more for renters than shorter, modest projects. And we have a lot of space in this city for modest projects.

If the city "required" only high-rise projects, we'd see the project pipeline grind to a halt.

Also, look at all the ugly high-rise residential in Vancouver. It hasn't decreased housing prices. There are many other factors at play in today's market.
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  #9845  
Old Posted Apr 7, 2021, 2:48 PM
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Originally Posted by ajiuO View Post
Doesn’t the LDS Church own that block along with the other parking lot block between north and south temple. We are in the worst housing crisis the city has ever faced and the LDS church is allowed to continue hoarding land, and using it for giant surface parking lots... go figure.
I've heard a lot of things said about that block, but this? This is easily the most laughable comment I've read.
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  #9846  
Old Posted Apr 7, 2021, 3:11 PM
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While I think that could be cool, I kind of wish we’d more embrace our arid high desert climate in terms of landscaping a bit more..
I second this. As much as I would like more trees, I would also like to see landscaping that is native to the surrounding area. In addition to being more environmentally sustainable, focusing on native plants and trees would also help us create a more unique sense of place. We have both the deserts to the west and the mountains to the east to draw from.
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  #9847  
Old Posted Apr 7, 2021, 3:21 PM
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The City is basically allowing developers to build as high as they can nearly everywhere in the City.

We have a lot of 6 story residential buildings because developers were able to build them quickly for decent profits. These 6 story buildings have reduced the available land, pushing up property values and pushing heights upward to ensure profits are aligned.

If you look at things over the last 10 years, we saw multiple 5 and 6 story residential projects proposed throughout the City. In the last 3 years, we have seen this shift towards more 6 and 7 story buildings with an occasional 8 to 10 story proposal and 1, 20+ story proposal.

Then look at the last 2-2.5 years, we continue to see a few 6 to 7 story proposals but there are more in the 8 to 12 story range. Additionally, we are seeing more highrise residential/mixed use proposals than at any time in the Cities history. There are 6 or so residential/mixed use proposals exceeding 25 stories currently public with many others still in the pipeline.

The biggest issue that we have right now is the lack of workers for all of the projects, so we are seeing them built in a wave rather than more happening at once. If we had more projects come online at the same time, housing costs would remain flat or at least not continue the increase as quickly as it has been over the same timeframe.
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  #9848  
Old Posted Apr 7, 2021, 3:29 PM
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Originally Posted by freeshavocado View Post
Six-story residential IS high density residential (especially compared to the typical density in SLC). And it's a lot less expensive than building 15-20 story high-rises. Any high-rise residential that goes up is going to cost more for renters than shorter, modest projects. And we have a lot of space in this city for modest projects.

If the city "required" only high-rise projects, we'd see the project pipeline grind to a halt.

Also, look at all the ugly high-rise residential in Vancouver. It hasn't decreased housing prices. There are many other factors at play in today's market.
Here is my own personal way of ranking things in SLC:

1-2 floors - low density
3-9 floors - mid density
10+ floors - high density
10-17 floors - high rise
18-~42 floors - tower
43 floors+(~500ft) skyscraper
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  #9849  
Old Posted Apr 7, 2021, 4:15 PM
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Originally Posted by ajiuO View Post
Doesn’t the LDS Church own that block along with the other parking lot block between north and south temple. We are in the worst housing crisis the city has ever faced and the LDS church is allowed to continue hoarding land, and using it for giant surface parking lots... go figure.
1) I don't subscribe to the theory that the government should be able to tell any private group whether a church or an individual that they MUST build residential units. While there may be certain programs to encourage not to leave something just an empty lot or a surface parking lot (e.g. tax breaks for better use or maybe even fees) requiring it seems like a bad idea.

2) The predominant church in SLC already built a ton of apartments at CCC, even more condos, and owns several more apts (e.g. The Brigham) all in nearby locations. It rarely turns out to be a good thing for one organization to monopolize apartments in an area. It seems to me the predominant church wanted to let others build residential high rises a bit (see Liberty Sky) before they built another one.
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  #9850  
Old Posted Apr 7, 2021, 6:29 PM
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Originally Posted by freeshavocado View Post
I think trees and greenery are important for beautifying and cooling downtown. We can reduce temperatures between 2 and 8 degrees C in urban heat islands with strategic planting.

And increased greenery in our urban areas wouldn't really affect drought issues. 72% of our water goes to farming, most of it to crops that aren't appropriate for desert farming like alfalfa. That's where the reform is needed.
Very much agree! Also, those who keep advocating some type of native tree need to realize that all of the native trees require regular watering. I'm sure there are some new hybrids out there that don't require quite as much water, but they're definitely not native. In fact, most if not all of the native valley trees here when the pioneers arrived are huge water pigs. If they're not located next to a stream or irrigation ditch they quickly dry up and die. Native mountain trees also are very particular about their elevation and sun exposure. Their water requirements can be completely different from their suburban valley relatives.

I would like to hear from some expert arborists on their opinions as to the type of trees which thrive along Salt Lake City streets. Trees that provide cooling shade, traditional beauty, resistant to winter weather, and require less water during the Summer months. Perhaps one of our forum members could give us some pointers.

Lawns are a much bigger issue, and there are a number of hybrid solutions or attractive xeriscaping.
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  #9851  
Old Posted Apr 7, 2021, 8:06 PM
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Planting forests in desert areas can lead to an increase in local rainfall:
https://phys.org/news/2019-09-plantations-rainfall.html

https://www.theguardian.com/environm...e-desert-green

Quote:
Originally Posted by delts145 View Post
Very much agree! Also, those who keep advocating some type of native tree need to realize that all of the native trees require regular watering. I'm sure there are some new hybrids out there that don't require quite as much water, but they're definitely not native. In fact, most if not all of the native valley trees here when the pioneers arrived are huge water pigs. If they're not located next to a stream or irrigation ditch they quickly dry up and die. Native mountain trees also are very particular about their elevation and sun exposure. Their water requirements can be completely different from their suburban valley relatives.

I would like to hear from some expert arborists on their opinions as to the type of trees which thrive along Salt Lake City streets. Trees that provide cooling shade, traditional beauty, resistant to winter weather, and require less water during the Summer months. Perhaps one of our forum members could give us some pointers.

Lawns are a much bigger issue, and there are a number of hybrid solutions or attractive xeriscaping.
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  #9852  
Old Posted Apr 7, 2021, 8:52 PM
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Originally Posted by delts145 View Post
I'm not quite sure of some of the cities you listed as something Salt Lake should emulate. IMO, I can think of many whose street engagements or environmental designs are far more worthy. For example, Tehran's typical street engagement is architecturally among the ugliest of any major city in the world. It does have some lovely mountain scenery nearby, but the majority of the city itself is a visual disaster, including the average landscaping (or lack thereof) design on its typical city center streets. It's unfortunate because the Persian people minus their brutal government control are among the most beautifully creative and artistic people in the world.

Los Angeles has a very large Persian community. It's amazing what the Persian people can do when given some freedom of choice.
Idk man, I think there’s something very beautiful about Tehran’s messy, brutalist layout and style, there seems to be a whole lot more real central street engagement, vibrancy, and life that struggles to exist in many American cities, including slc

As for landscaping specifically, I suppose I’m more pointing at some of the really ancient cities in the region like Samarkand, Tabriz, Bukhara, or Gaziantep. But also at at nearly anywhere in the area pre-cold war, places like Kabul or other cities in Iran. Everything is kept quite sparse and almost sort of Mediterranean, and with lots of what look like scraggly native junipers, very similar to what you see growing all over Utah and Nevada. I like that it feels actually representative of the landscape and region that the city inhabits, and I also feel like lots of our sibling cities like Albuquerque or Reno do this a bit more honestly than we do. In my opinion, capitol cities like slc should especially give extra thought to this sort of thing, as to better represent the geographical actuality of the state of which they govern and speak for

But again just my opinion, perceived beauty is so subjective. I think I happen to really like places that had big postwar construction booms hahah

Last edited by felixg; Apr 7, 2021 at 9:22 PM.
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  #9853  
Old Posted Apr 8, 2021, 6:20 AM
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Originally Posted by ajiuO View Post
I almost think that they should halt everything and implement new regulations that require any residential to be at least 15-20 stories high along that strip. We can’t continue to allow all of this low density residential.
While I appreciate the sentiment, that would stall out ANY development.

New fire code in the last 20 years allows wood-frame construction up to 4-5 stories with a fire suppression system. Add in a concrete/steel ground floor and you magically end up with the 5-6 story stuff popping up across the city.

To expand beyond that requires steel, purely out of safety (nobody wants to live in a 20-story stick frame wood building). Steel construction is vastly more expensive per square foot than wood -- which is why we see it in office buildings and almost never in non-luxury residential.

I'm a bigger fan of expanding the places we allow this 6-story construction. I say ALL "big" streets should automatically qualify, valley-wide. Does the property touch Redwood? It qualifies. Does it touch a TRAX station? It qualifies. Is at a big freeway offramp? It qualifies.
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  #9854  
Old Posted Apr 8, 2021, 6:41 PM
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Originally Posted by delts145 View Post
Very much agree! Also, those who keep advocating some type of native tree need to realize that all of the native trees require regular watering. I'm sure there are some new hybrids out there that don't require quite as much water, but they're definitely not native. In fact, most if not all of the native valley trees here when the pioneers arrived are huge water pigs. If they're not located next to a stream or irrigation ditch they quickly dry up and die. Native mountain trees also are very particular about their elevation and sun exposure. Their water requirements can be completely different from their suburban valley relatives.

I would like to hear from some expert arborists on their opinions as to the type of trees which thrive along Salt Lake City streets. Trees that provide cooling shade, traditional beauty, resistant to winter weather, and require less water during the Summer months. Perhaps one of our forum members could give us some pointers.

Lawns are a much bigger issue, and there are a number of hybrid solutions or attractive xeriscaping.
There are a few native or climate adapted alternatives that thrive in heat, dry, and poor soils, such as big-tooth maple, ponderosa pine, or chokecherry. These can correspondingly swap out the overwhelmingly more commonly planted and much thirstier Norway maple, Austrian pine, and flowering pear with a near identical growth habit and look. It’s mostly that the horticulture industry favors mass production, economy of scale, and species uniformity across the American Market (see Capitalism) and so it’s much more difficult and expensive to find native tree varieties. The garden center in Salt Lake sells trees from the same supplier providing trees to the garden center in Michigan.

However, trees comparatively consume a fraction of the amount of water that lawns do. We can still have large Sycamores, Ash, Maples, Lindens, and other non native but beautiful/large landscape trees that thrive off watering just once a week during peak summer heat. Utah’s spring and fall can typically accommodate most non native trees, it’s just the summer dryness where they really need supplemental watering, and even then it’s just a deep watering once a week in July. We just need to cut down on lawn grass... that requires frequent watering multiple times a week and sometimes (uneducated people) daily in peak summer.

Here is something that is shocking. Let’s talk park strips. JUST. Park strips. Most cities in Utah require homeowners to have grass in their park strip. The typical park strip is 5 feet wide, and about 50 feet of home frontage not including driveway. That is 250 sq feet of grass JUST in a park strip that no one is using, no kid is playing on, ends up dying, and the sprinklers just water the asphalt. Multiply that 250 sq foot by 4, the average amount of times a homeowner waters their lawn in a week for 1000sq feet watered a week. Typical watering is 1 inch per sq foot, which equals 1 gallon per sq foot. So that is 1,000 gallons a week JUST on the grass park strip. Multiply that by the 30 weeks a year people water their lawn, you get 30,000 gallons of water per house every YEAR. JUST on the park strip required by the city. Multiple that by the 1.5 million households in Utah, and you get 45,000,000,000 gallons of water EVERY YEAR. Just on grass park strips. Multiply that by 2 for schools, business, etc, and you get 90 BILLION gallons of water every year JUST ON GRASS PARKSTRIPS. That is a third of the volume of Utah lake. Every. Year.

Removing grass from parkstrips is such an easy low hanging fruit. Replacing it with Kinnickinick, Three Leaf Sumac, Native Bunchgrasses, or Desert 4 O’clock, gorgeous native plants that would fill in the whole space rapidly to keep down weeds/trash and require ZERO supplemental watering once established and are virtually indestructible (Please look some of these up and put them in your own park strip... Desert 4 o’clock is Incredible... blooms excessively from May through October, requires no watering, and will fill in the entire park strip) The problem resurfaces though... the horticulture industry just doesn’t provide these plants as they are currently extraordinarily niche.

Park strips are such an easy first step. But they are required to have grass in most cities in Utah, mostly from landscape ideals handed down from the East coast (and before that Europe) that in order for things to be “pretty” it has to be bright green and grassy.

Phew rant over.
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  #9855  
Old Posted Apr 9, 2021, 5:15 PM
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I don't really have much to add to the tree discussion other than to say that I love the trees we have in SLC. The more trees, the better. Lawns are another story but I do enjoy them in places like Liberty Park and Sugar House Park.

Since things are pretty slow right now, I thought I'd share an image I came across of a new tower in Austin because it gives an interesting perspective comparison for SLC's skyline. The "Hanover Brazos Street" tower (center) will be 519 ft tall and in the rendering below you can see it standing right next to the JW Marriott building. The roof of the JW Marriott is 408 ft, which makes it a very good comparison with the Wells Fargo Center in SLC (roofline: 400 ft). The Austonian (far left tower) is 683 ft tall. The Hampton Inn, which is the old building in the foreground, is about the same height as the Boston/Newhouse buildings in SLC.

So if you want to imagine a 519 ft or 683 ft tower in SLC, this is what it would look like next to the Wells Fargo Center.

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  #9856  
Old Posted Apr 9, 2021, 5:16 PM
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Does anyone have any information on a multifamily building being built on 1200 East and approximately 1950 South in Sugar House? It's just north of the seven story Irving Heights building, and they just demolished a house and parking lot, just trying to find out what's going in there.
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  #9857  
Old Posted Apr 9, 2021, 6:48 PM
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Curious now as to what Jedi is talking about. Also, the Atlas post comparison of the two towers above just goes to show that those heights could be a great fit in SLC at this point. The height does not look out of place at all. At this point, I would be happy to see SLC just progress to the level of 500-plus.

Really enjoyed your post Wasatch. Thank you for taking the time to give us some valuable insight. I'm a total tree hugger, I hate seeing trees neglected when many would just need a little attention through two or three months of the Summer.


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Originally Posted by Wasatch Wasteland View Post
There are a few native or climate adapted alternatives that thrive in heat, dry, and poor soils, such as big-tooth maple, ponderosa pine, or chokecherry. These can correspondingly swap out the overwhelmingly more commonly planted and much thirstier Norway maple, Austrian pine, and flowering pear with a near identical growth habit and look. It’s mostly that the horticulture industry favors mass production, economy of scale, and species uniformity across the American Market (see Capitalism) and so it’s much more difficult and expensive to find native tree varieties. The garden center in Salt Lake sells trees from the same supplier providing trees to the garden center in Michigan.

However, trees comparatively consume a fraction of the amount of water that lawns do. We can still have large Sycamores, Ash, Maples, Lindens, and other non native but beautiful/large landscape trees that thrive off watering just once a week during peak summer heat. Utah’s spring and fall can typically accommodate most non native trees, it’s just the summer dryness where they really need supplemental watering, and even then it’s just a deep watering once a week in July. We just need to cut down on lawn grass... that requires frequent watering multiple times a week and sometimes (uneducated people) daily in peak summer.

Here is something that is shocking. Let’s talk park strips. JUST. Park strips. Most cities in Utah require homeowners to have grass in their park strip. The typical park strip is 5 feet wide, and about 50 feet of home frontage not including driveway. That is 250 sq feet of grass JUST in a park strip that no one is using, no kid is playing on, ends up dying, and the sprinklers just water the asphalt. Multiply that 250 sq foot by 4, the average amount of times a homeowner waters their lawn in a week for 1000sq feet watered a week. Typical watering is 1 inch per sq foot, which equals 1 gallon per sq foot. So that is 1,000 gallons a week JUST on the grass park strip. Multiply that by the 30 weeks a year people water their lawn, you get 30,000 gallons of water per house every YEAR. JUST on the park strip required by the city. Multiple that by the 1.5 million households in Utah, and you get 45,000,000,000 gallons of water EVERY YEAR. Just on grass park strips. Multiply that by 2 for schools, business, etc, and you get 90 BILLION gallons of water every year JUST ON GRASS PARKSTRIPS. That is a third of the volume of Utah lake. Every. Year.

Removing grass from parkstrips is such an easy low hanging fruit. Replacing it with Kinnickinick, Three Leaf Sumac, Native Bunchgrasses, or Desert 4 O’clock, gorgeous native plants that would fill in the whole space rapidly to keep down weeds/trash and require ZERO supplemental watering once established and are virtually indestructible (Please look some of these up and put them in your own park strip... Desert 4 o’clock is Incredible... blooms excessively from May through October, requires no watering, and will fill in the entire park strip) The problem resurfaces though... the horticulture industry just doesn’t provide these plants as they are currently extraordinarily niche.

Park strips are such an easy first step. But they are required to have grass in most cities in Utah, mostly from landscape ideals handed down from the East coast (and before that Europe) that in order for things to be “pretty” it has to be bright green and grassy.

Phew rant over.

Last edited by delts145; Apr 9, 2021 at 6:58 PM.
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  #9858  
Old Posted Apr 9, 2021, 10:42 PM
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Post District and Hyatt Regency construction update, courtesy of the Wall Street Journal:

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  #9859  
Old Posted Apr 10, 2021, 2:28 AM
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Thanks for visual perspective Atlas. I hope that tower gets built. As far as the CCH, it will do wonders for the skyline as well as filling in that small gap if you’re facing east. Great projects happening all over the city!

I don’t know anything when it comes to trees, landscaping, etc, so I’m not going to mention or share my view on that subject but it’s great to read others ideas and perspectives on it though.
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  #9860  
Old Posted Apr 10, 2021, 3:00 AM
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Thanks for visual perspective Atlas. I hope that tower gets built. As far as the CCH, it will do wonders for the skyline as well as filling in that small gap if you’re facing east. Great projects happening all over the city!

I don’t know anything when it comes to trees, landscaping, etc, so I’m not going to mention or share my view on that subject but it’s great to read others ideas and perspectives on it though.
How is this troll not banned yet? This poser account is really Waimea who was banned, came back as Future _ _ Mayor, and was banned again. Please, everyone, report “New&Old” to the moderator. The account was created by Waimea, who was banned.

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Originally Posted by Old&New View Post
I really don’t think it’s appropriate for anyone (not to mention the likelihood this person was banned previously) to have an account with a username so similar to another forum member’s username, someone who happens to be one of our most respected contributors to this forum. It is meant to troll and cause confusion. Additionally, this poser’s despicable behavior is disparaging the real Future_Mayor. How would any of you like it if this troll created an account with a username almost identical to yours, and then continued to behave poorly? You’d be pissed. We cannot allow this person to mess with the reputation of another. Everyone please report this troll. We need to get the moderators’ attention. We cannot allow this to continue.

Last edited by Old&New; Apr 10, 2021 at 3:15 AM.
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