Next southern city to build a tower in the 85-100 story range

[Steely Dan]

Originally Posted by BG918

With as flashy as Dallas is I am surprised their skyline is still pretty much the same as it was in the 90’s.

the 3 big southern skyline growers of the 70s/80s have all kinda stagnated at the top end.

between 1971 and 1992, houston, dallas, and atlanta combined to build 20 towers over 700' tall! (~26% of the national output)

however, over the past three decades since then, they have only combined to build 2 such towers, both in houston, one is currently U/C. (~2% of the national output)

and this has been during the largest 700+' skyscraper building period in our nation's history (thanks in large part to the booms in NYC, chicago, and miami).

[TexasPlaya]

Originally Posted by mrnyc

miami for condo, but texas for office or mixed use.

I see mixed use being able to crack the criteria sooner than condos.

[MonkeyRonin]

Originally Posted by chris08876

I believe for Toronto the reference was to:

1) The One ; 1,013 FT / 309 M | 85 FLOORS

Looks like its on hold.



2) One Younge ; One Yonge | 307 M | 95 FL | 263 M | 80 FL | 216 M | 65 FL

For One Younge (lol) ... I'd image its in phases. Is the 95 floor component rising 1st?


Although CTBUH does like one at 83 floors, maybe someone can reference the permits?

Building permit for The One is listed at 86 stories, but SSP and Urbantoronto databases have it at 85 stories (I'm assuming they're excluding the mechanical penthouse). It's under construction - work is definitely ongoing, and has recently reached grade level.

One Yonge is a multi-tower project, but the 95-storey Sky Tower is listed as under construction on SSP and UT. I believe it's only in the excavation stage now though.

[WhipperSnapper]

SSP is the best source for Toronto.

[JManc]

Originally Posted by JAYNYC

Dallas could - and should, IMO - have the strongest (tallest and most dense) skyline in the Southwest + Southeast corridor (basically the area between Texas and the Carolinas). Problem is, the overwhelming majority of corporate office (both HQ and satellite / regional office) development in the area from the 90's until today has exploded north of 635 from the Galleria Area straight up the tollway into Plano, Frisco, etc. It seems that DFW companies large and small prefer the campus approach to building a 75-85 story tower downtown, and I'm assuming housing quality improves the further north one gets from downtown.

This issue seems to be far less prevalent in Greater Houston.

Not anymore. Campuses and mid-rises are far more popular than downtown high rises by a long shot.

[Northern Light]

Originally Posted by Steely Dan

Cool!

Which ones?

Neither are listed in the CTBUH database yet.

Did they start construction recently?

The highest floor count listed for Toronto in the CTBUH database is the U/C The One, which they list at 83 floors.

Top 3 under construction projects (height) in the Urban Toronto database are:

Pinnacle One Yonge 95floors/1,025ft

The One 85 Floors/1,012ft

YSL 85 Floors/981 ft

All are condos

In the 'proposed' space

Mirvish-Ghery is a condo project that been stalled a bit 91 Floors/1,079 ft

1200 Bay is a recent proposal 87 floors/1,070ft

Chelsea Green 85 stories/904ft

All the proposals are primarily residential

There are several office towers in the offing but none in this height range.

Union Park is the tallest office proposal at 58 floors/995ft

Commerce Court 3 clocks in at 64 floors but 990ft

[wwmiv]

Originally Posted by MonkeyRonin

I voted Houston, just because it's extant towers are both the tallest and the most recent. Dallas and Atlanta haven't seen much high-rise growth at the top end of height in recent years (Houston is also dominated by 80s towers, but at least has a couple from recent years and one U/C).

Though, I understand its growth is a bit sluggish at the moment - so it likely won't happen until the next boom cycle. Austin and Nashville are growing like gangbusters right now, but conditions there are likely still a long way of from making an 85+ storey tower viable. They lack the corporate base for an office tower of that height; and lack the high land values for a residential tower.

Austin does not lack the proper land values. That’s why the city is building up relative to its peers.

[Maldive]

Atlanta by a nose.

Apologies for adding to the T.O. tangent but a visit to SSP diagrams show proposed office towers Commerce Court 3 (302 metres architectural top + a 74 m flagpole) and Union Park (303 metres architectural top) to be legit supertalls... if the overlords at CTBUH approve. YSL remains a huge gaping hole with a new (much-loathed) developer taking over the project.

[C.]

When the OP was talking about the next southern city to build a tower in the 85-100 story range, I doubt he indented to mean southern Ontario.

Toronto would definitely win the contest since y'all put up a new 85 story tower every other month it seems like.

[Maldive]

^lol... good one. My first line was on topic ;-)

[WhipperSnapper]

Does it really matter when they are so many other North American cities ahead of the South? It's like saying Bismarck has the best skyline in the Dakotas (just a guess)

[craigs]

Originally Posted by WhipperSnapper

Does it really matter when they are so many other North American cities ahead of the South? It's like saying Bismarck has the best skyline in the Dakotas (just a guess)

No, Fargo has the best skyline in the Dakotas, hands down.


source

[plinko]

Considering there are only about 70 of these (85+ floors) in the world, it's definitely a unique club.

Miami seems like the only contender here amongst Southern cities.

[0214685226]

I went back and forth between Dallas and Atlanta. I ended up voting for Dallas based off of momentum in the state of Texas. I'm not sure when that will happen if ever, but it seems like the most logical place for a new 85 story building. I don't think any city outside of New York, Chicago and San Francisco actually need an 85 story building. There is plenty of land in all of these cities to build plenty of 50 story buildings.

[James Bond Agent 007]

Originally Posted by austlar1

I'm betting no southern city will build that tall in the next ten years, if ever.

This.

[dc_denizen]

with covid who knows, but I expect places like houston and dallas will continue to add tons of multi-family units (eg Dallas, which had 50-60,000 multifamily units under construction for several years), even without the trophy condo buildings inhabited by rich foreigners.

[JManc]

Originally Posted by wwmiv

Austin does not lack the proper land values. That’s why the city is building up relative to its peers.

Downtown Austin has momentum and appeal. There's Lady Bird Park/ Lake right there (huge plus) plus all the eateries and bars. I'd live there in a NY minute. Can't say the same about other Texas cities.

[Shawn]

I'm no construction industry expert, but on Arch Boston we have a bunch of actual developers, PMs, and architects working for the big guys. To a person, they're saying capital markets for large new projects are frozen solid and will be for the foreseeable future. To quote one of the more knowledgeable members, "Debt capital markets are freaked out about construction lending right now, credit is super expensive and the last thing that lenders like is uncertainty. They get paid to NOT take risks on stuff, and there is way way way too much going on to finance a project this size. Furthermore the big syndicates that would take pieces of a deal this size are kind of out of the market because of all the junk they need to deal with in their existing book, they're not going to float a $700MM loan on a ground up deal that's a total flier right now."

I don't see anything this size going up anywhere in the US in the next decade outside of NYC and maybe Chicago and Miami. No one has any appetite for this level of risk.

[plinko]

^Small projects (<$40-$50M) though seem to still be funded left and right. It’s been shocking and happy to still see.

[Shawn]

Originally Posted by plinko

^Small projects (<$40-$50M) though seem to still be funded left and right. It’s been shocking and happy to still see.

Same in Boston. Construction is booming now as everyone tries to get back on schedule from April and May's shutdown. But no one is getting an 80 story building for $50MM.

Maybe Miami can still do it, as a lot of those towers are spec and are funded by EMEA and LatAm groups, as opposed to local heavyweights and national firms like we have in Mass, who avoid spec like the plague.