City Analogues

[Andy6]

Originally Posted by MonctonRad

My reasons why I think Boston is a better analogue for Halifax than Portland:

- Both cities have city commons
- Both cities have public gardens
- Both cities are regional "capitals" (New England vs Maritimes)
- Both cities have multiple high quality institutions of higher education.
- Both cities have a long complex historical relationship.

I don't really see that much similarity - the cities are so far apart in size, wealth and economy. In Halifax the ocean and maritime stuff is far harder to miss than in Boston. I lived in the Boston area for a while and it could have been 1,000 miles inland for all the times I ever came across an ocean view or saw a ship. I think 100 years ago there would have been more similarity and a relationship, but (on the latter point) other than Montreal very few ordinary people in Boston seemed to know anything about Canada. If I said "Toronto" they knew the name but couldn't have told me a single thing about it other than that it was a place with some sports teams. I never tried "Halifax" but I doubt it would have exceeded the 0% recognition level for "Winnipeg" by much.

[ue]

Originally Posted by Acajack

Even freakier when it comes to Australia and Canada, all AFAIK of the major Australian cities have downtown enclosed shopping malls anchored by large national department store chains, either Myer or David Jones.

In several cities, the mall is even known as the Myer Centre. Shades of the Eaton Centres that existed back in the day in Canada. (Ottawa's Rideau Centre actually was an Eaton Centre without the name. At one point they wanted to rename it the Rideau-Eaton Centre, but the idea was scrapped.)

Is the state of department stores in Australia better than in Canada or the United States?

Also as far as Australia-Canada comparisons go...

Sydney - Vancouver with a bit of Toronto
Melbourne - Toronto and Montreal (combines some of the better elements of both)
Adelaide - Ottawa/Winnipeg/Edmonton
Brisbane - Vancouver
Perth - Calgary or Vancouver to a much lesser degree
Hobart - Halifax or St John's
Geelong - Hamilton
Newcastle - Victoria

[ue]

Originally Posted by Andy6

I don't really see that much similarity - the cities are so far apart in size, wealth and economy. In Halifax the ocean and maritime stuff is far harder to miss than in Boston. I lived in the Boston area for a while and it could have been 1,000 miles inland for all the times I ever came across an ocean view or saw a ship. I think 100 years ago there would have been more similarity and a relationship, but (on the latter point) other than Montreal very few ordinary people in Boston seemed to know anything about Canada. If I said "Toronto" they knew the name but couldn't have told me a single thing about it other than that it was a place with some sports teams. I never tried "Halifax" but I doubt it would have exceeded the 0% recognition level for "Winnipeg" by much.

Many New Englanders will vacation in Nova Scotia, even having summer homes. It's really not uncommon to see Massachusetts, New Hampshire, or Maine plates in the province in normal (pre-covid) times. I'd wager a guess that it's absolutely second fiddle to Montreal, but it's not exactly Narnia either.

There are strong historical relationships with the Maritimes too, as there are with Quebec and Newfoundland. This is perhaps more of a one-sided relationship, as industrial New England cities (and New York) were a major draw for Eastern Canadians. I do think this relationship has somewhat severed and become strained post-9/11, and particularly since the passport requirements came into effect later. But this is true of nearly all cross-border relationships.

I've only been to Halifax, not Boston, but the vibes of the two cities seem different. Like yeah, they're both big university cities, but they translate differently. Boston seems heavy on the STEM fields and while that certainly exists in Halifax's schools, there's also well regarded humanities, arts, and social science programs. The effect is that Halifax has a quirky, arty vibe, not unlike Portland (OR) or the like. Boston also seems more manicured and preppy and corporate.

[someone123]

Hobart and Tasmania, population-wise and geographically, are somewhat similar to St. John's and Newfoundland.

[niwell]

Originally Posted by ue

Is the state of department stores in Australia better than in Canada or the United States?

Also as far as Australia-Canada comparisons go...

Sydney - Vancouver with a bit of Toronto
Melbourne - Toronto and Montreal (combines some of the better elements of both)
Adelaide - Ottawa/Winnipeg/Edmonton
Brisbane - Vancouver
Perth - Calgary or Vancouver to a much lesser degree
Hobart - Halifax or St John's
Geelong - Hamilton
Newcastle - Victoria

This seems like a good list. At least I've always felt the same about the first two - Melbourne isn't strictly a Toronto copy, and Sydney has aspects of TO.

[hipster duck]

Toronto is kind of similar to Queens, NY in terms of its demographics, general density and urban development history.

[esquire]

Originally Posted by niwell

This seems like a good list. At least I've always felt the same about the first two - Melbourne isn't strictly a Toronto copy, and Sydney has aspects of TO.

Sydney didn't remind me of any Canadian city. Brisbane felt a bit like an amalgam of Vancouver and Calgary to me.

[someone123]

Sydney reminds me more of San Francisco than of a Canadian city. But its street network is more jumbled up which makes it look more interesting. The Australian suburbs seem to be mostly detached houses and office parks, closer to the norm in the US.

Vancouver has a sunny beach town feel for about 6 weeks a year, between Junuary and forest fire smoke season. I am jealous that Sydney is like this for most of the year.

[someone123]

Originally Posted by Andy6

I think 100 years ago there would have been more similarity and a relationship, but (on the latter point) other than Montreal very few ordinary people in Boston seemed to know anything about Canada.

Boston's official generic holiday tree is provided by NS every year explicitly as thanks for the Halifax Explosion aid, which is an interesting historical tie although the practice began in the 70's and has a bit of a tourism promotion feel.

When I lived in Halifax there weren't a lot of personal ties to Boston that I could detect. There's the odd person who might go to MIT or Harvard, but they are top schools in the world. Boston is a short flight from Halifax, just like Toronto or Montreal or NYC. Perhaps there was a vestigial sense that New England should be important as a neighbouring region but then in practice the bigger trend in recent years was probably immigration from overseas and exports/imports to/from China.

The NS-MA relationship dated back to when people mostly travelled by ship and it was much easier to go from say Halifax or Yarmouth NS to Boston than to Montreal or Toronto. That system was in decline by about 1870. The blue collar migration probably peaked around the early 1900's and was a more rural rather than urban phenomenon, much like Alberta from the 90's to 2010's. Less relevant for Halifax specifically, maybe partly because the military and marine industries historically offered a blue collar employment path.

[Andy6]

Originally Posted by someone123

Boston's official generic holiday tree is provided by NS every year explicitly as thanks for the Halifax Explosion aid, which is an interesting historical tie although the practice began in the 70's and has a bit of a tourism promotion feel.

When I lived in Halifax there weren't a lot of personal ties to Boston that I could detect. There's the odd person who might go to MIT or Harvard, but they are top schools in the world. Boston is a short flight from Halifax, just like Toronto or Montreal or NYC. Perhaps there was a vestigial sense that New England should be important as a neighbouring region but then in practice the bigger trend in recent years was probably immigration from overseas and exports/imports to/from China.

The NS-MA relationship dated back to when people mostly travelled by ship and it was much easier to go from say Halifax or Yarmouth NS to Boston than to Montreal or Toronto. That system was in decline by about 1870. The blue collar migration probably peaked around the early 1900's and was a more rural rather than urban phenomenon, much like Alberta from the 90's to 2010's. Less relevant for Halifax specifically, maybe partly because the military and marine industries historically offered a blue collar employment path.

Well, for a long time everyone in the Maritimes had a sister or a cousin or a son in Massachusetts. My grandfather had an aunt in Boston through his PEI family - it would have been a rare person who didn't. And Nova Scotia was a very popular summer travel destination for the Boston middle class. I have literally hundreds of postcards in my collection from circa 1905 of Massachusetts matrons doing the grand tour from Yarmouth to the sacred sights of the Land of Evangeline and sometimes to PEI and back down through Saint John and home. People today are in many ways less worldly than they were then, at least when it came from knowing about and having seen other parts of North America.

[JHikka]

Originally Posted by Andy6

Well, for a long time everyone in the Maritimes had a sister or a cousin or a son in Massachusetts. My grandfather had an aunt in Boston through his PEI family - it would have been a rare person who didn't. And Nova Scotia was a very popular summer travel destination for the Boston middle class. I have literally hundreds of postcards in my collection from circa 1905 of Massachusetts matrons doing the grand tour from Yarmouth to the sacred sights of the Land of Evangeline and sometimes to PEI and back down through Saint John and home. People today are in many ways less worldly than they were then, at least when it came from knowing about and having seen other parts of North America.

9/11 and border control really severed a lot of ties between Maritime Canada and Maritime US. What used to be fairly routine trips became longer than usual hassles, and the connections from the past soon eroded. They're still well-connected today, of course, but not as much as they were in the decades previous.

Places like St.Andrews are still loaded with American license plates but I have a faint feeling even those are less frequent than they would have been in the 90s. It would be great for PEI/NS/NB to have a closer connection to ME/NH/VT/MA/RI but unfortunately that hasn't been the case in recent history.

[someone123]

Originally Posted by Andy6

Well, for a long time everyone in the Maritimes had a sister or a cousin or a son in Massachusetts. My grandfather had an aunt in Boston through his PEI family - it would have been a rare person who didn't. And Nova Scotia was a very popular summer travel destination for the Boston middle class. I have literally hundreds of postcards in my collection from circa 1905 of Massachusetts matrons doing the grand tour from Yarmouth to the sacred sights of the Land of Evangeline and sometimes to PEI and back down through Saint John and home.

Yes although none of this is really Halifax specific. Today in NS there's relatively high foreign ownership of homes (maybe the highest % in Canada in the numbers I saw a few weeks ago) but it's higher in rural areas than in the city. Americans like places like Chester and Digby.

With Alberta there were huge numbers moving from rural NS but it wasn't very noticeable in the urban cohort I was in back in the early 2000's. I could see something similar having been the case farther back in the past, with surplus labourers from primary industries moving to work in factories.

[rousseau]

Originally Posted by MolsonExport

pittsburghmagazine

Just coming into this thread to say what a handsome picture that is, and what a nice change it is from the same-old same-old Canuck skyscraper photos we're used to.

[Hali87]

At a global scale, Wellington NZ seems like the closest analogue for Halifax (and possibly Victoria as well).

Halifax is similar to Boston in a lot of ways and is sort of analogous in terms of its "place" regionally and nationally. Providence RI seems like a closer fit in terms of architectural details and actual urban environments, with institutions that are closer in scale to the Halifax ones. I guess Boston seems like a "Greatly Scaled-Up, American Version of Halifax" while Providence seems more simply like an "American Version of Halifax".

There are also a lot of parallels between Halifax and San Fransisco/Bay Area. The geographic layout is pretty similar and a lot of the planning-related oddities in Halifax (the Citadel, the Cogswell Interchange) have direct analogues in SF (the Presidio, the Embarcadero Expressway). In many ways Oakland seems like the closest analogue for Dartmouth out there.

Portland ME is close to Halifax in size and the closest major New England city geographically but it reminds me a lot more of Saint John and Fredericton in terms of architecture/urban form. Portland OR actually seems a couple degrees more similar to Halifax than Portland ME does, at least culturally. Although if Portland OR has a main analogue in Canada I think that would be Victoria.

Philadelphia always seemed kind of like a flatter, non-Québecois version of Montreal.

Minneapolis-St. Paul kind of seems like equal parts Edmonton, Winnipeg, and Saskatoon.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by ue

Is the state of department stores in Australia better than in Canada or the United States?

I think they probably are.

I don't think Walmart is in Australia yet nor do they have as many category-killer stores in the Walmart style.

Walmart when you think really started out as a cheapo department store.

A whole bunch of stuff people used to buy at department stores like Eaton, Sears, The Bay, people instead began buying at Walmart 20-30 years ago: toys, bedsheets, bras, toasters, etc.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by someone123

Yes although none of this is really Halifax specific. Today in NS there's relatively high foreign ownership of homes (maybe the highest % in Canada in the numbers I saw a few weeks ago) but it's higher in rural areas than in the city. Americans like places like Chester and Digby.

With Alberta there were huge numbers moving from rural NS but it wasn't very noticeable in the urban cohort I was in back in the early 2000's. I could see something similar having been the case farther back in the past, with surplus labourers from primary industries moving to work in factories.

The work-related migration from Atlantic Canada to New England and the NE US in general really fell off a cliff around 1960s. I think that's when borders and citizenship started becoming way more important.

There is a clear generational shift in migration patterns in both of my Acadian Maritime families (and their friends and neighbours) between people who'd be aged 85-90+ today (predominantly NE US) and those younger who started out their adult lives starting in the 60s (almost exclusively in Ontario and Quebec).

[Boreal]

While you might have to squint a little, I have always found Winnipeg and Milwaukee to be very similar. You have to be there, boots on the ground to get the feel. Images won't sell a person on this...

Beyond that, Omaha.

[Razor]

Originally Posted by kool maudit

For Montreal, Philadelphia always struck me as a good comparison.

I sometimes think the same, but on the ground they are more different then similar. Both Montreal and Philadelphia are both historic to their relative countries and have a signature sandwich, but that's where the similarities stop.

On that appealing to tourist level, Philadelphia really capitalizes on that "big belt buckle" Ben Franklin-Quaker/Amish/ father of confederation shtick..Montreal doesn't seem to play up to any equivalent to that..I didn't notice a food restaurant scene like I do in Montreal either, but we were only there for a few days..Montreal just seems more apparent with their fine dining options. I suppose they both have a strong blue and white collar element, but most large cities have that.
it's really hard to encapsulate into words, a"feel " to a city. I suppose walking around inner Philadelphia with their old brownstones were a little like Montreal's row houses.Not so much in style, but more in quantity..Ditto for some of the cobblestone streets. Both cities are friendly and laid back, so that's a similarity. Montreal definitely has more of a vibrant pulse when you enter it, whereas Philadelphia is more subdued in it's core. like most large U.S cities, it's more suburban..It goes on forever it seems.

Originally Posted by Boreal

While you might have to squint a little, I have always found Winnipeg and Milwaukee to be very similar. You have to be there, boots on the ground to get the feel. Images won't sell a person on this...

Beyond that, Omaha.

I can see that..Maybe because Winnipeg has/had a manufacturing element to it, and is older..I can see Calgary and Denver/sunbelt cities, but am having a hard time aesthetically comparing Edmonton to another city. Same with Ottawa, but the Adelaide comparison from posters that have visited both were interesting..I thought that it would of been the obvious Canberra myself initially. How about London ON?

[kwoldtimer]

I wonder if Scranton-Wilkes-Barre might not feel familiar to somebody from K-C-W? About the same size and industrial pasts. S-W-B seems to lack the education/high tech aspect that has grown in K-C-W. I've been to Scranton, for a day, but didn't form much of an opinion, beyond "very Rust Belt".

[someone123]

Originally Posted by Hali87

At a global scale, Wellington NZ seems like the closest analogue for Halifax (and possibly Victoria as well).

Wellington is a interesting. It follows the CBD-and-detached-house-suburbs model that reminds me of say California, but it has far more train service than any similar California city would. Probably in part because some of its suburbs have such limited road connections due to the geography. When you have narrow choke points like that, you want high-density transportation options. A lot of people don't seem to understand this at all (you can tell because they make arguments like "there's no space for trains; every lane is taken up by cars!").

One thing I notice in the Aus/NZ cities is they tend to have spacious looking retail storefronts with big windows and canopies. Some will argue that this is because of climate but Canadian cities looked more like that back in 1940 or so.

I guess Boston seems like a "Greatly Scaled-Up, American Version of Halifax" while Providence seems more simply like an "American Version of Halifax".

What I notice:

- Fewer mid-range multi-unit residential and mixed use developments from after WWII
- Architectural style is more slanted toward red brick and has evolved only a little since the 80's era of restrained New England postmodernism (Rowes Wharf being an example of this). Many of these buildings look nice and use high quality materials.
- Full downtown freeway system
- Clearly there was a boom period around 1900 while Halifax mostly missed out on those buildings. Halifax's large historical-looking masonry buildings are mostly from around 1925-1940 (Nova Scotian Hotel, Lord Nelson, Bethune, Dominion Building, Bank of NS, etc.).
- The Brown campus looks nice and is well-integrated into the surroundings. Dalhousie has more big buildings and parking lots, and feels rough around the edges in comparison.

Portland OR actually seems a couple degrees more similar to Halifax than Portland ME does, at least culturally. Although if Portland OR has a main analogue in Canada I think that would be Victoria.

Portland OR and Seattle both have areas that vaguely remind me of the feel of Halifax, with this being more prevalent in Portland. I expected Portland to be an undeniably much larger-feeling and more cosmopolitan-feeling city. But that's not what it's like in person. Portland reminds me a bit of what you might get if you took many copies of Victoria and placed them all next to each other. It is not unlike the feel of LA in that abstract sense.