Ottawa LRT - Citadis Spirits (General Discussion)

[Dundas]

I feel like this turn vibration and horrible noise kills the experience for me. It makes it feel like the trains are older than they are.

[rakerman]

Originally Posted by J.OT13

At least we're not alone?

Is it normal for simple trams to have so many issues? Alstom was always sold as a great rail stock company, but this displays a pattern. I know Bombardier is full of problems as well, but what about Siemens, Kinki-Shario and others.

The Spirit and the Dualis are not trams, they're tram-trains. Tram-trains have higher top speeds than trams, and can switch overhead voltages, so they're able to go from urban surface rail service to main line railway service (in France, where the main line is electrified). In reality they're mostly being used either as trams or as trains, rather than switching part way during their routes.

There are only 78 Citadis Dualis tram-trains in service, compared with over 2300 Citadis trams.

The tram-train (e.g. Metrolinx describing the Spirit) gets jumbled together with the tram which misleading. They are different vehicles.

Over 2,300 Citadis vehicles sold to 55 cities around the world, the Alstom LRV can handle the toughest winter and hottest summer.

It really should say "78 Citadis Dualis sold to three French cities."

[Lightspotting]

I guess it's all semantics at this point but I definitely see the spirit as a tram with some train like capabilities but definitely not the other way around.

It probably depends if we classify it on its platform (very much a tram platform) rather than its capabilities.

[Catenary]

Originally Posted by OCCheetos

I don't know if this was a change for the new vehicles, or if it's being retroactively applied to all of the older vehicles as well but 1138 has a panel above the door to cover the door electronics.

Previously the electronics were completely exposed, not that I recall this necessarily being a problem. In any case; a good change.

All the new trains have these installed, and in the past week they've started rolling out on the original trains as well now.

[PHrenetic]

Originally Posted by Catenary

All the new trains have these installed, and in the past week they've started rolling out on the original trains as well now.

Good Day.

A thought..... it may have had something to do with needing access to the mechanisms during all the door problems and difficulties,
and now that this has been 'cured', they are installing the covers that were meant to have been there all along ???

FWIW.

[OCCheetos]

Here's 1147 spotted in delivery from Brampton:

https://twitter.com/chrisjamesdrew/s...63322920243200

[rakerman]

Brampton Economic Development

The first Alstom Citadis Spirit produced in @AlstomCanada brand new factory in #Brampton, left the site on September 2 [2020].

https://twitter.com/BramptonEcoDev/s...01089281855490

[TheMatth69]

Don't know who wrote this, but this is a detailed comparaison between Citadis Spirits and Citadis Dualis. Very interesting. It appears that the problems with the Spirits are vey similar to the ones encountered in France with the Dualis... astonishing that Alstom did nothing to resolve the issues and worst replicated the same mistakes on another model.

Citadis Dualis and Citadis Spirit tram-train


to create the Spirit, [Alstom] had adapted the Citadis Dualis vehicle, then in service in Nantes and Lyons. He said changes had been made to the propulsion system in order to accommodate different braking and acceleration “parameters.” Crucially, the vehicle’s systems had been “winterized” to accommodate temperatures as low as -40 C. … “This is not a huge redesign” – Ottawa Citizen – March 2020 – Inside the slow-rolling disaster of Ottawa’s $9-billion LRT project – above information based on a 2013 International Railway Journal article

So Ottawa has the Citadis Spirit vehicle, which is based on the Citadis Dualis tram-train

(...)

Both of the Paris trams that use the Dualis are outside the Boulevard Périphérique, the ring road that defines the traditional core of Paris.

The T4 and the T11 Express lines also carry dramatically fewer passengers than Ottawa’s LRT Line 1 was projected to carry; the T4 carried as many passengers in all of 2019 as Ottawa’s Line 1 carried in a month and an entire year of T11 Express passengers in 2019 would only be two months of Ottawa Line 1 passenger volume.

Also, the T11 Express is the second worst tram line for reliability. (The T4 line is the worst, but the data are from before the Dualis was added to the line in September 2019.)

(...)

The Citadis Spirit is basically a winterized, North American version of the Dualis. The Spirit was announced in 2013. Ottawa uses it solely as a train: LRT Line 1 is completely grade-separated (it is always separated from car traffic; it never intersects with any streets, always going either over or under them).

Alstoms Citadis-Dualis tram-train with a configuration similar to that of Ottawa has been operating for nearly two years in the Nantes suburbs and more recently in the city of Lyon at a speed of up to 100 km/h.
– Alstom – 13 February 2013 – Alstom to provide 34 light rail vehicles and maintenance services for Ottawa

With a similar configuration to Citadis Dualis tram-trains used in the French cities of Nantes and Lyon, the version of the Citadis Spirit for Ottawa will be a 100% low-floor LRV with a top speed of 100 km/h and space for bicycles. It will be equipped to operate in ‘extreme’ winter conditions.
– Railway Gazette – 14 February 2013 – Alstom launches North American light rail vehicle with Ottawa contract

(...)

https://manifestomultilinko2.wordpre...it-tram-train/

[OCCheetos]

Originally Posted by TheMatth69

Don't know who wrote this.

rakerman, the user right above you^, did

[rakerman]

Originally Posted by TheMatth69

Don't know who wrote this, but this is a detailed comparaison between Citadis Spirits and Citadis Dualis. Very interesting. It appears that the problems with the Spirits are vey similar to the ones encountered in France with the Dualis... astonishing that Alstom did nothing to resolve the issues and worst replicated the same mistakes on another model.

Thanks. I wrote it.

[Gat-Train]

Am I the only one disappointed we didn't got with an urban maglev?

[DarthVader_1961]

Originally Posted by Gat-Train

Am I the only one disappointed we didn't got with an urban maglev?

Maglevs are cool, I have been on the one in Shanghai, but they are expensive to build

[TheMatth69]

Originally Posted by Gat-Train

Am I the only one disappointed we didn't got with an urban maglev?

You really trust Watson, RTG, SNC Lavalin & co. To build such a sofisticated transit mode
They can't even build a working LRT system ... Of course your comment was sarcastic but just thinking about it gives me nightmares

[OCCheetos]

Stumbled across this photo on Unsplash: https://unsplash.com/photos/TMp8ivmjrZ4

Seems to show some Stage 2 trains back before they entered service.

Also: https://rtg-rtm.com/maintenance/pict...ance-du-maire/

[Dundas]

I took the train the other day, a round trip from Blair to Rideau and the last time I was on it was several months ago in August 2020. I wanted to see if the vibration and noise got better with the on-going maintenance RTG is doing.

This time was actually worst than I remembered, every turn the train makes, it vibrates and the noise is insane. There's no way you can have a conversation while riding this train, the noise and vibration is absolutely dreadful. This kills the overall experience of riding the train, I would be embarrassed to bring friends from out of town on this train.

Do they actually intend on just leaving things as is with this problem??

[OCCheetos]

Originally Posted by Dundas

I took the train the other day, a round trip from Blair to Rideau and the last time I was on it was several months ago in August 2020. I wanted to see if the vibration and noise got better with the on-going maintenance RTG is doing.

This time was actually worst than I remembered, every turn the train makes, it vibrates and the noise is insane. There's no way you can have a conversation while riding this train, the noise and vibration is absolutely dreadful. This kills the overall experience of riding the train, I would be embarrassed to bring friends from out of town on this train.

Do they actually intend on just leaving things as is with this problem??

The last (regular) transit commission meeting suggested that there was track work that would happen to coincide with the spring thaw. I have no idea if that's been done by now.

[kmcamp]

Originally Posted by Lightspotting

For me the sound itself doesn't really bother me, it's the extreme vibration pulling in into hurdman.

It feels like the train is inches away from jumping the tracks.

Does the KW ion have similar curves? At least we could compare low floor to low floor

I haven't been on Ion, but on plenty of streetcar systems around North America and Europe before. The vibration isn't uncommon, but on those systems the curves are even sharper yet much shorter (basically a 90 degree turn at an intersection) so it seems less bad as it doesn't go on for so long. The Hurdman curves seem to be designed to drag out that kind of vibration for the longest possible time

[Dundas]

Seriously! I feel the same way. With all the vibration and the noise it is like the train will drop off the rail.

It's not just the Hurdman curb anymore, pretty much every turn it takes it vibrates heavily. I wouldn't complain if it was some minor noise and vibration that I could understand but this is out of the ordinary.

[Kitchissippi]

Trains negotiating the curve east of Rideau seem really noisy now, I don’t remember it being so bad before. The last train I rode also had a terrible constant rumble, like riding a vehicle with no shock absorbers. I was wondering if this was somewhat temperature related