LRT Stage 3

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by Truenorth00

More broadly, you don't have to always build subways under streets themselves. This is often done to cut costs in North America, where streets are linear. But it's not a hard requirement. And that North American perspective is what is driving this obsession with subways under those avenues. Get away from looking at only the street and you start to see the need for a North-South corridor (Trillium Line) and East-West corridor (Confederation Line). This is where the planners are coming from.
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The best corridor for a surface rail solution near Bank is Queen Elizabeth, but we now how that will go with the NCC.

But if you look at it it's pretty good: it would serve the southern part of the Elgin corridor and the Golden Triangle, it's generally about 500 m from the Bank St. corridor through the Glebe, there are two pedestrian bridges across the canal and a few road bridges, it could serve Old Ottawa South, and link up to the Trillium Line at Carleton.

[Uhuniau]

Originally Posted by Acajack

The best corridor for a surface rail solution near Bank is Queen Elizabeth, but we now how that will go with the NCC.

But if you look at it it's pretty good: it would serve the southern part of the Elgin corridor and the Golden Triangle, it's generally about 500 m from the Bank St. corridor through the Glebe, there are two pedestrian bridges across the canal and a few road bridges, it could serve Old Ottawa South, and link up to the Trillium Line at Carleton.

Or continue past Dows Lake to link to Trillium at Carling.

Either way, yeah, I'm a big partisan of running transit along that route.

[Multi-modal]

Originally Posted by Truenorth00

And especially when that same $7 billion could build LRT to Kanata and Barrhaven, twin and electrify Trillium, build the connection to Gatinueau, build the Carling LRT and the Baseline-Heron-Walkley BRT. People need to understand opportunity cost and the improtance of ridership. In summary, $7 billion would practically pay for their ultimate network as planned today, or just the subways on Bank and Montreal-Rideau with nothing else.

This is actually a fairly close trade-off IMO.

In my opinion, the City's next projects should be in this order (Note I consider the Baseline BRT from Algonquin to the SE Transitway as part of Phase 2, as there is $140 M budgeted for this in 2020 and 2021):

1. Kanata extension to Terry Fox
2. Trillium Line extension to Gatineau and Trillium Line improvements to 10 minute frequencies
3. Montreal Subway to St. Laurent, transitioning to surface LRT from St. Laurent to Blair
4. Carling Avenue LRT that utilizes Queen Elizabeth Place to get to downtown as others have suggested (I know, NCC ... but who knows - attitudes are slowly changing)
5. Baseline BRT extension to Bayshore + Heron BRT to Elmvale
6. Barrhaven LRT
7. Cumberland LRT as a Montreal Subway extension
8. Bank Street Subway

Barrhaven LRT will be impossible politically to delay that long... but I think its too expensive for what we are getting out of it.

Bank Street Subway may happen earlier depending on whether the Trillium Line reaches capacity earlier, or on how well the Carling LRT can relieve Confederation Line capacity between Bayview and Lyon Station.

P.S. I love that the approval of Stage 2 has suddenly turned "transit fantasy" discussions into "Stage 3" discussions.

[CityTech]

Honestly.. No stage 3. Not for a while. Stage 1 and 2 built a big network. I think we should take a breather, wait until stage 2 is done and see what's needed with how the city evolves. Stage 3 can be planned 2025-2028, procured 2028-2029 and constructed in the 2030s. By then the city will have paid down a good chunk of the first two phases and will have funds available.

[Gat-Train]

An LRT on Queen Elizabeth should continue through Union Station across the Alexandria Bridge.

[JohnnyRenton]

Originally Posted by CityTech

Honestly.. No stage 3. Not for a while. Stage 1 and 2 built a big network. I think we should take a breather, wait until stage 2 is done and see what's needed with how the city evolves. Stage 3 can be planned 2025-2028, procured 2028-2029 and constructed in the 2030s. By then the city will have paid down a good chunk of the first two phases and will have funds available.

I think there is a lot of transit fatigue right now. People just want phase 1 open and phase 2 to get underway. The LRT debate/discussion/planning/construction has been going on for over a decade now (you could probably point to around 2008 or 09 when it really started).

And I do think you have a point that things just need to settle out a bit. There are still a lot of unknowns. How much ridership is it going to attract when its open? How much development is it going to fuel? How effective will the automated systems be after a few years of experience running the system? What is Gatineau going to do about their proposed SLR? Etc, etc.

I don't think there is anything wrong with having a couple projects in their back pocket in the event additional higher level funding becomes available. But, especially after the last 6 months, some time to stop and process everything would do a world of good.

[Truenorth00]

Anybody who thinks there will be subways under Bank or Rideau-Montreal in our lifetimes (I'm in my 30s) can't be helped. Unless the way we fund transit construction, the capital required and the ridership numbers will never see that happen. Even a "short" subway, from say Rideau Centre to St. Laurent and then surface running the LRT till Blair would be a $2+ billion project. This would cost as much as we spent on Stage 1. Not happening.

And that's before we even get into politics. How long do you think Barrhaven and Kanata will hold out for? How well do you think it would go down if $2 billion in funding came and it was dedicated entirely to a Rideau-Montreal or Bank St. subway?

[corynv]

Are there many people saying we should do the bank subway for stage 3 and only that? Most of what i've read says that for a stage 4 or later there should be something there.

[Truenorth00]

Originally Posted by JohnnyRenton

- Single track extensions for some of the suburban stretches (such as Fallowfield to Marketplace where a single track providing 10 minute frequencies could be sufficient for that market).

Ummm no. The whole single track problem was a one-off for Trillium owing to cost (not just track laying but tunneling, bridges, etc.) , existing single track and other logistical and operational constraints. Nobody would happily replicate this elsewhere when building an entirely new corridor, where the cost to add another track is marginal. They also have an existing Transitway past Fallowfield that they can convert, which has room for twin tracks.

Originally Posted by JohnnyRenton

- Battery powered MUs. Mostly thinking about the single track sections but this would allow extensions to avoid the cost of electrification, while still using electric trains that could use the DT tunnel. Obviously there is a cost associated with having infrastructure to support charging point and/or constant charging, but it is worth finding out how much cost savings could be in that option.

There's no substantial cost savings unless you want to avoid electrification entirely. If the Trillium Line were to connect to the Confederation Line to be interlined, it makes far more sense to spend the little bit more and electrify and facilitate a common fleet and possibly avoid the cost of a yard even.

[Truenorth00]

Originally Posted by corynv

Are there many people saying we should do the bank subway for stage 3 and only that? Most of what i've read says that for a stage 4 or later there should be something there.

A Bank St. subway is so far down the list of feasibility, that beyond the mind of a handful of railfans, it wouldn't make the first half dozen stages for any planner.

If the city were to get a guaranteed quarter billion from the feds and Queen's Park every year for the next 30 years? Sure. Bank St subway might happen in our lifetimes. I don't see Trudeau and Ford rushing to make that announcement....

[Truenorth00]

Originally Posted by CityTech

Honestly.. No stage 3. Not for a while. Stage 1 and 2 built a big network. I think we should take a breather, wait until stage 2 is done and see what's needed with how the city evolves. Stage 3 can be planned 2025-2028, procured 2028-2029 and constructed in the 2030s. By then the city will have paid down a good chunk of the first two phases and will have funds available.

Look at funding. What you've laid out is the best case scenario.

Provincial and federal governments are just facing such massive fiscal demands that we'll be lower on the totem pole.

Look at some of the large demands coming through for the feds and province. Look at something like GO RER. That's $12 billion by itself (before a shovel has touched dirt....I wouldn't be surprised if it came in at $20 billion). Toronto's Transit city when first announced was supposed to be something like $6 billion. The Eglinton Line is only finishing the central portion and is over $5 billion. They'll eventually build a subway or LRT on Sheppard for billions more. There's LRTs to be built in Hamilton and Mississauga. There's BRT possibly in London. Maybe a second stage of LRT in Waterloo. And of course, Toronto is insisting they won't support any more subway expansion to the 905 without the DRL, that's easily another $7-10 billion.

And amidst all these demands we have an aging population with healthcare consuming a larger and larger proportion of the provincial budget. We're at 39% already and the bow wave of boomers hasn't even hit. All while Ontario is carrying record level of debt as a province.

And people think governments have billions to spare on subways for what would be nothing but suburban avenues in the GTA. I am, quite frankly shocked, Stage 1 and Stage 2 are going through rather unmolested. And part of that is pure dumb luck as all our competitors have bickered and equivocated on various transit plans while Ottawa has plowed through. If we're really lucky Stage 2 will go through just fine and then hopefully, the feds and province will find spare change in the cushions to fund extensions to Terry Fox and Fallowfield something in the next 15-20 years.

[Uhuniau]

Originally Posted by lrt's friend

We want to satisfy the bicycle lobby and I am fine with that as long as we can find a way to satisfy the other 95% as well.

We can't close off Montreal Road or Bank Street as these are key roads for all traffic.

So if we need to allow regular traffic and we want bicycle tracks, at some point we need to bite the bullet and run transit underground.

Alternatively, we can run the bike infrastructure in parallel to the main streets, where transit would take priority, but holy hell, the screech from the cyclists over even the small parallel route between the Rideau River and the Vanier Parkway as part of the Montreal Road project.... aieeesh.

There is absolutely no pleasing those people. And there is no one effectively speaking up for transit users in any of these road reconstruction projects, and no one listening at city hall anyway.

[Uhuniau]

Originally Posted by CityTech

Honestly.. No stage 3. Not for a while. Stage 1 and 2 built a big network. I think we should take a breather, wait until stage 2 is done and see what's needed with how the city evolves. Stage 3 can be planned 2025-2028, procured 2028-2029 and constructed in the 2030s. By then the city will have paid down a good chunk of the first two phases and will have funds available.

So, maybe, perhaps, sorta, in 20+++ years, subject to other (i.e. more suburban) projects taking fiscal and political priority, it might finally be possible to travel four or five km within the urban core, along major urban main streets, using public transit, in less than 45 minutes, assuming that the problems with congestion and total mismanagement of the bus service don't get worse?

This is a great transit policy if you're the suburbs. But yet again, it means turning our backs on the parts of the city that are most transit-dependent and transit-conducive. We just get the distinct pleasure of the implicit tax transfer out to Barrhaven and Kanata.

[Multi-modal]

Originally Posted by Truenorth00

Anybody who thinks there will be subways under Bank or Rideau-Montreal in our lifetimes (I'm in my 30s) can't be helped. Unless the way we fund transit construction, the capital required and the ridership numbers will never see that happen. Even a "short" subway, from say Rideau Centre to St. Laurent and then surface running the LRT till Blair would be a $2+ billion project. This would cost as much as we spent on Stage 1. Not happening.

Ignoring politics, which I acknowledged make barrhaven lrt almost #1 or #2 in terms of the City's priorities, I think 2+ billion for montreal road rapid transit is arguably better ROI than 2+ billion for the barrhaven extension.

And I know you think you are saving us all from our fantasies or something, but your attitude and efforts to shut down discussion... to say, "be realistic we won't get any significant investment from upper levels of government for 15+ years!!"... is not really in the spirit of this forum. It's sort of the nature of everyone in this forum to think big. What do you want us to say - "my priority for phase 3 is lrt to kanata, if we're lucky"... what an interesting conversation that would be.

[Mikeed]

Stage 3 should be:

- Confederation Line to Terry Fox and Fallowfield
- Crosstown Transitway, the full length of Baseline, Heron and Walkley
- Fallowfield to Limebank Transitway

Both of these BRT lines should be marketed and designed as lines in the Otrain network.

[lrt's friend]

Originally Posted by Gat-Train

An LRT on Queen Elizabeth should continue through Union Station across the Alexandria Bridge.

That would be difficult since they are on opposite sides of the canal.

[lrt's friend]

Yes, the diversity of opinion and ideas in this discussion group is why I participate. I may not agree with everybody but I do appreciate and learn from everybody's contributions. A big thank you.

[AuxTown]

Originally Posted by CityTech

Honestly.. No stage 3. Not for a while. Stage 1 and 2 built a big network. I think we should take a breather, wait until stage 2 is done and see what's needed with how the city evolves. Stage 3 can be planned 2025-2028, procured 2028-2029 and constructed in the 2030s. By then the city will have paid down a good chunk of the first two phases and will have funds available.

I live in Kanata and I don't disagree. Let's try to keep much of the LRT inside the Greenbelt to promote development/redevelopment there.

[Truenorth00]

Originally Posted by Multi-modal

And I know you think you are saving us all from our fantasies or something, but your attitude and efforts to shut down discussion... to say, "be realistic we won't get any significant investment from upper levels of government for 15+ years!!"... is not really in the spirit of this forum. It's sort of the nature of everyone in this forum to think big. What do you want us to say - "my priority for phase 3 is lrt to kanata, if we're lucky"... what an interesting conversation that would be.

Getting all spun up over something that is highly improbable isn't exactly productive.

But even more to the point it takes away discussion on what could and should be beyond just LRT itself. Transit isn't just about who gets tracks.

Originally Posted by Mikeed

Stage 3 should be:

- Confederation Line to Terry Fox and Fallowfield
- Crosstown Transitway, the full length of Baseline, Heron and Walkley
- Fallowfield to Limebank Transitway

Both of these BRT lines should be marketed and designed as lines in the Otrain network.

Glad you brought up cross-town transit. It's the pieces that's needed to make transit somewhat more functional in this city. Not everybody is heading downtown or needs to go through downtown.

[J.OT13]

When the Confederation Line reaches capacity, and it will happen within 30 years or so with the TOD planned around the stations, the City will have no choice but to look into building a second rapid transit line, and Montreal Road in the east is the only option. Bonus is that it can be extended as the Cumberland Transitway, serving the precious suburbs.

In the west, Carling would be the only logical route, but linking it to the Montreal Road subway would be tough.

That brings us to the Bank Street subway. They will be able to increase the capacity ever so slightly with minor frequency increases to Trillium through piece-meal double tracking, but it won't be long before a full shut-down for a proper double track upgrade is no longer feasible, That's when the Bank Street subway comes in (sometime in the next 30-40 years).

Back to Carling, it could be a spur branch of the Montreal-Rideau-Bank subway.

The Bank line can be surface/elevated south of Billings to South Keys or the Airport (giving all of Trillium capacity to Riverside South), Carling can be surface/elevated west of Trillium to Kanata North and Montreal can be surface/elevated east of St-Laurent all the way to Millennium. This massive project would need to be phased in as needed, just like the current Confederation/Trillium project, over 20-30 years starting around 2048.