HomeDiagramsDatabaseMapsForum About
     

Go Back   SkyscraperPage Forum > Regional Sections > Canada > Ontario > Ottawa-Gatineau > Transportation


Reply

 
Thread Tools Display Modes
     
     
  #1  
Old Posted Jul 29, 2020, 7:02 PM
OTownandDown OTownandDown is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jul 2018
Posts: 1,326
Bank Street Canal Bridge Improvements

Regarding the Cummings Bridge, this City needs to get used to providing new cantilevered sidewalks/mup attached to the exterior of these heavy concrete structures. It's totally do-able, and if we pick the right architect, it can actually ADD to the 'heritage' value of the structure. The bridge is currently not wide enough to allow for all uses in a safe manner, especially leaving the speeding, downhill, eastbound cyclists to the mercy of drivers who do not know whether to slow down or pass at such a fast speed, until everyone arrives at the bottom of the bridge and slams on the breaks. Now, the majority of traffic to the west and east is handled by just two lanes for most of the day, so why cant the bridge be permanently reduced to just two lanes? Surely it can't have a huge impact.

I've voiced my opinions on the matter to Councillor Menard on his Bank Street bridge 'improvements' survey. In that case, they're proposing reducing the bridge to three traffic lanes, two northbound to allow for a bus lay-by area for Lansdowne events (as if four buses laying up on the bridge will be super important when there's a couple hundred per game). The resulting 'shared lanes' for bikes and pedestrians will neither be wide enough for cyclists nor pedestrians to all use the space at the same time... I think it would be a waste of resources.

If we were to provide new cantilevered sidewalks/mup on each side of the bridge, we can leave the existing bridge railings in place and just add the extra lanes to the outside. Of course the upfront cost is higher than adjusting lanes, but its lower than a new bridge.

https://www.shawnmenard.ca/bank_stre...e_improvements

Here's a few examples of what I mean:

https://www.compositeadvantage.com/p...ered-sidewalks

On the extreme scale: Jubilee Bridges in London, England:

https://media-cdn.tripadvisor.com/me.../photo3jpg.jpg
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #2  
Old Posted Jul 29, 2020, 7:27 PM
Multi-modal Multi-modal is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jul 2014
Posts: 1,138
Quote:
Originally Posted by OTownandDown View Post
Regarding the Cummings Bridge, this City needs to get used to providing new cantilevered sidewalks/mup attached to the exterior of these heavy concrete structures. It's totally do-able, and if we pick the right architect, it can actually ADD to the 'heritage' value of the structure. The bridge is currently not wide enough to allow for all uses in a safe manner, especially leaving the speeding, downhill, eastbound cyclists to the mercy of drivers who do not know whether to slow down or pass at such a fast speed, until everyone arrives at the bottom of the bridge and slams on the breaks. Now, the majority of traffic to the west and east is handled by just two lanes for most of the day, so why cant the bridge be permanently reduced to just two lanes? Surely it can't have a huge impact.

I've voiced my opinions on the matter to Councillor Menard on his Bank Street bridge 'improvements' survey. In that case, they're proposing reducing the bridge to three traffic lanes, two northbound to allow for a bus lay-by area for Lansdowne events (as if four buses laying up on the bridge will be super important when there's a couple hundred per game). The resulting 'shared lanes' for bikes and pedestrians will neither be wide enough for cyclists nor pedestrians to all use the space at the same time... I think it would be a waste of resources.

If we were to provide new cantilevered sidewalks/mup on each side of the bridge, we can leave the existing bridge railings in place and just add the extra lanes to the outside. Of course the upfront cost is higher than adjusting lanes, but its lower than a new bridge.

https://www.shawnmenard.ca/bank_stre...e_improvements

Here's a few examples of what I mean:

https://www.compositeadvantage.com/p...ered-sidewalks

On the extreme scale: Jubilee Bridges in London, England:

https://media-cdn.tripadvisor.com/me.../photo3jpg.jpg
Yes I too am not a fan of the MUP plan on the Bank Street canal bridge. If they are going to reduce it to 3 lanes I would rather they install bike lanes and keep the existing sidewalk rather than these silly MUPs.

The cantilever idea would be best applied to the Billings Bridge, in my opinion.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #3  
Old Posted Jul 29, 2020, 7:36 PM
TransitZilla TransitZilla is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Posts: 2,736
Quote:
Originally Posted by Multi-modal View Post
Yes I too am not a fan of the MUP plan on the Bank Street canal bridge. If they are going to reduce it to 3 lanes I would rather they install bike lanes and keep the existing sidewalk rather than these silly MUPs.

The cantilever idea would be best applied to the Billings Bridge, in my opinion.
I agree the cantilever idea would be perfect for Billings Bridge.

I think the proposal for the Bank Street Bridge is pretty good though. It's not perfect but it's probably the best possible solution within the amount of space available.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #4  
Old Posted Jul 29, 2020, 8:12 PM
Catenary Catenary is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Dec 2012
Posts: 1,307
Quote:
Originally Posted by OTownandDown View Post
I've voiced my opinions on the matter to Councillor Menard on his Bank Street bridge 'improvements' survey. In that case, they're proposing reducing the bridge to three traffic lanes, two northbound to allow for a bus lay-by area for Lansdowne events (as if four buses laying up on the bridge will be super important when there's a couple hundred per game). The resulting 'shared lanes' for bikes and pedestrians will neither be wide enough for cyclists nor pedestrians to all use the space at the same time... I think it would be a waste of resources.
I think the issue with buses for RedBlacks games isn't storage, but access. Traffic barely moves after a game, and they load buses every couple of minutes. Once one set of buses is full, the next set is ready to roll in, and a supervisor dispatches more from Billings Bridge. If there was only one northbound lane, the buses would be sitting in mixed traffic waiting to get to the stops.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #5  
Old Posted Jul 29, 2020, 8:34 PM
OTownandDown OTownandDown is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jul 2018
Posts: 1,326
Quote:
Originally Posted by Catenary View Post
I think the issue with buses for RedBlacks games isn't storage, but access. Traffic barely moves after a game, and they load buses every couple of minutes. Once one set of buses is full, the next set is ready to roll in, and a supervisor dispatches more from Billings Bridge. If there was only one northbound lane, the buses would be sitting in mixed traffic waiting to get to the stops.
But logically 'sitting in mixed traffic' occurs along the full length of Bank Street during game day? On either side of the bridge if the road reopened to 4 lanes at slow speed, surely the delay is the same?

If traffic were dense and moving at 60km/hr and you asked 4 lanes to squeeze to two, yes there might be a slow-down. But at 10km/hr, the bottleneck of the bridge squeezing traffic equally opens up on the other side. Heck, the entire road squeezes to two lanes at Sunnyside and also at Holmwood on a regular busy day. Why not just keep the two lanes starting at Sunnyside and extend all the way to Wilton, where you provide a left-hand turn lane for northbound travellers?

Sorry, I know this isn't the conversation for this thread. Is there a Bank Street bridge thread?

I understand the hesitation that a 'bottleneck' appears to be at the bridge, but isn't the bottleneck at Lansdowne, and then Bank Street streetlights and pedestrian crossings?
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #6  
Old Posted Jul 29, 2020, 9:23 PM
lrt's friend lrt's friend is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Posts: 11,841
Quote:
Originally Posted by Catenary View Post
I think the issue with buses for RedBlacks games isn't storage, but access. Traffic barely moves after a game, and they load buses every couple of minutes. Once one set of buses is full, the next set is ready to roll in, and a supervisor dispatches more from Billings Bridge. If there was only one northbound lane, the buses would be sitting in mixed traffic waiting to get to the stops.
Generally post game, buses are lined up across the bridge waiting to pick up passengers.

If we narrow this to one lane, we are in trouble both pre and post game. I know if something has gone wrong with traffic in the past, travel times can easily double or triple along Bank Street. This eliminates the attractiveness of transit for accessing Lansdowne if the service becomes routinely unpredictable and unreliable.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #7  
Old Posted Jul 30, 2020, 2:09 AM
Uhuniau Uhuniau is online now
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Posts: 7,999
Quote:
Originally Posted by lrt's friend View Post
Generally post game, buses are lined up across the bridge waiting to pick up passengers.

If we narrow this to one lane, we are in trouble both pre and post game. I know if something has gone wrong with traffic in the past, travel times can easily double or triple along Bank Street. This eliminates the attractiveness of transit for accessing Lansdowne if the service becomes routinely unpredictable and unreliable.
Transit on Bank Street already sucks on event days. As with other truly urban transit problems, there is no appetite or budget to do anything to fix the problem, and in many cases an eagerness to make it worse through poorly-thought-out but heavily-advocated-for bike projects.
__________________
___
Enjoy my taxes, Orleans (and Kanata?).
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #8  
Old Posted Jul 30, 2020, 8:21 PM
Catenary Catenary is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Dec 2012
Posts: 1,307
Quote:
Originally Posted by lrt's friend View Post
Generally post game, buses are lined up across the bridge waiting to pick up passengers.

If we narrow this to one lane, we are in trouble both pre and post game. I know if something has gone wrong with traffic in the past, travel times can easily double or triple along Bank Street. This eliminates the attractiveness of transit for accessing Lansdowne if the service becomes routinely unpredictable and unreliable.
Yes, this is the issue with transit on Game Days. Generally, the bottleneck is at Bank/Exhibition, so there are delays upstream in both directions, but traffic moves well downstream. For this reason, getting to the game usually takes much longer than getting home, where you jump on a bus and it quickly moves into relatively free-flowing traffic.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #9  
Old Posted Jul 31, 2020, 3:39 AM
OTownandDown OTownandDown is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jul 2018
Posts: 1,326
Quote:
Originally Posted by Catenary View Post
Yes, this is the issue with transit on Game Days. Generally, the bottleneck is at Bank/Exhibition, so there are delays upstream in both directions, but traffic moves well downstream. For this reason, getting to the game usually takes much longer than getting home, where you jump on a bus and it quickly moves into relatively free-flowing traffic.
Exactly. Traffic is F*cked during game day anyways. What does a two-lane bridge 100m from the venue do to make it any better or worse? If traffic at Sunnyside crawls towards Lansdowne, it'll crawl over the bridge, and continue crawling in front of the venue. There's no big change if the bridge is 2 or 4 lanes.

Why not allow people to comfortably cross the bridge the other 99% of the time?

Also, sharrows have been abandoned by the City, in favour of severely over-designed segregated and zig-zaggy bike paths.

Anybody else notice, on an entire different topic (because I'm drunk) that there are WAY too many road signs lately? Any given intersection can have over 20 different signs!?!?
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #10  
Old Posted Jul 31, 2020, 5:12 AM
lrt's friend lrt's friend is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Posts: 11,841
Quote:
Originally Posted by OTownandDown View Post
Exactly. Traffic is F*cked during game day anyways. What does a two-lane bridge 100m from the venue do to make it any better or worse? If traffic at Sunnyside crawls towards Lansdowne, it'll crawl over the bridge, and continue crawling in front of the venue. There's no big change if the bridge is 2 or 4 lanes.

Why not allow people to comfortably cross the bridge the other 99% of the time?

Also, sharrows have been abandoned by the City, in favour of severely over-designed segregated and zig-zaggy bike paths.

Anybody else notice, on an entire different topic (because I'm drunk) that there are WAY too many road signs lately? Any given intersection can have over 20 different signs!?!?
Believe me, if we narrow the canal bridge to two lanes on game days, traffic that is relatively free moving with event parking restrictions south of the bridge, will back up all the way to Billings Bridge and traffic will come to an almost complete standstill. Buses have more or less free access to the curb lane north of Sunnyside. A standstill situation happened once and it resulted in travel times of one hour from South Keys when normal times are 10 to 15 minutes.

Sharrows are no longer recommended in transportation planning. Jeff Speck spoke about this in one of the videos I posted.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #11  
Old Posted Jul 31, 2020, 5:05 PM
rocketphish's Avatar
rocketphish rocketphish is online now
Planet Ottawa and beyond
 
Join Date: Feb 2009
Location: Ottawa
Posts: 12,264
Bank Street Canal Bridge Improvements

Office of Shawn Menard



The Bank Street Canal Bridge is an iconic structure for Capital Ward and for the city, and it serves as an important link between the various communities on each side of the Rideau Canal. Bank Street is home to residential buildings, shops, restaurants, offices, community buildings and, of course, Lansdowne Park.

It is a thriving, livable street that serves both as a link between communities and a hub of activity.

It has also long been a source of concern for the residents of Capital Ward (and residents across the city). There is often speeding on the bridge, there is no safe space for bicyclists, and the sidewalks can be too narrow for pedestrians and those in wheelchairs.

Our office wants to make the bridge as safe as possible for all road users, understanding that there are unique demands for this stretch of Bank—it’s a bus route, a truck route and it is part of the transportation plan for Lansdowne Park. We talked about this extensively during the last election.

Recently, residents in the area would have received a construction notice for the bridge this aummer. The plan was to repair the top of the bridge (repave and also repair the sidewalk) and the bottom of the bridge (some concrete is falling and needs attention).

There is still a plan to proceed with the works underneath the bridge this Summer, but after significant public feedback, we worked with city staff to discuss what can be done to the top of the bridge before construction took place. The pylons that our office purchased (at a much-reduced cost than renting them) will remain on the bridge for the near future to enhance safety and distancing.

Working with city staff, we will be consulting on a design that should better satisfy all the uses of the bridge while also improving safety for all road users.

We can now re-imagine the layout of the bridge, and implement a new design that will better serve all residents.

Current Design

Currently, the bridge with four motor vehicle lanes, two each in the northbound and southbound directions. The curb lanes measure 3.65m and the centre lanes measure 3.0m.

Bicyclists are expected to share the curb lane with cars, trucks, buses and transport trucks.

The sidewalk on each side of the bridge measures 2.0m.



Safety Concerns

The current design of the bridge provides no safe facilities for bicyclists. Bicyclists are expected to share the curb lane with cars, trucks, buses and transport trucks.

The danger is exacerbated by the pitch of the bridge, limiting a driver’s ability to see bicyclists on the other side of the crest of the bridge, as well as the tendency of some drivers to speed over the bridge.

For safety reasons, many bicyclists are forced onto the sidewalk, fostering conflict with pedestrians, as the sidewalks are only two meters wide.

The width of the sidewalks can also pose issues for people walking, using wheelchairs or mobility aids, people pushing strollers, or people with small children in hand. Conflict can arise when people walking in opposite directions need to pass each other. This issue is more severe in winter, when snow makes the sidewalk narrower.

These issues are nothing new. The local communities have been seeking improvements to the bridge for years, and in the municipal election, I ran on improving transportation safety in the ward and along Bank Street, including over the bridge.

Re-Designing the Bridge

With the construction planned for the bridge, our office saw this as an appropriate opportunity to address the longstanding safety issues with the bridge. We approached city staff, asking for recommendations to provide added safety measures for pedestrians and bicyclists.

This was not a simple task. Being both a bus and truck route, any re-design of the bridge must accommodate large, heavy vehicles. The bridge is used as part of the Lansdowne transportation plan, allowing buses to queue for RedBlacks games and other large events. Finally, the bridge’s heritage status must be considered.

After months of collaboration with city staff, we can now present a proposed design that would provide significant safety improvements while also respecting the unique context and uses of the bridge.



The proposed design for this new layout would consist of three motor vehicle lanes--two northbound and one southbound--each measuring 3.5m. The northbound curb lane would continue to serve as the location for buses to queue for RedBlacks games and other large events.

On each side of the bridge, a multi-use pathway (MUP) would be installed. Each MUP would measure 3.1m (for reference, standard MUPs along the Rideau Canal measure 3.0m). The MUPs would be shared by pedestrians and bicyclists. A metal railing extension would be added, as the current bridge railings would not be high enough to meet provincial standards for a MUP.

It would be expected that bicyclists would ride on the right side of the street and pedestrians would walk in either direction, just as happens along Bank Street on either side of the bridge.

The MUPs would be cleared and maintained in the winter, just as the sidewalks currently are.

This design would provide two extra advantages over the current design. First, a narrowing of the roadway should help to calm traffic and slow vehicles. Speeding is a significant issue for residents in the area, and any improvements we can make would be welcome.

Additionally, this would provide extra space for pedestrians attending special events at Lansdowne. Currently, the sidewalks do not provide sufficient space for people walking to Lansdowne Park for RedBlacks games or other large events, and many people choose to walk in the roadway. The proposed MUPs would offer more space and more safety for attendees.

To view our report on on the Bank Street Canal Bridge Re-Design, including alternate designs that were considered, click here [PDF].

Public Consultation

It is our intention to consult with residents and community associations over the summer. Due to COVID-19, we will not be able to conduct normal, in-person consultations. Digital consultations will be held, but the timing and format has not been finalized.

In the meantime, you are welcome to email us at CapitalWard@ottawa.ca.

No final decisions have been made. Any decisions will be made after consultations and will be released publicly.

Timeline

A report by the city’s Traffic Services department will be presented to the September meeting of the Transportation Committee. Any re-design of the bridge would be included in that report.

Any re-design of the bridge will be implemented in 2021.

Construction on the underside of the bridge will begin this summer. Since there will be no change to the structure of the bridge, this work can be done while consultation about the design of the bridge is being conducted.


https://www.shawnmenard.ca/bank_stre...e_improvements
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #12  
Old Posted Jul 31, 2020, 5:12 PM
Multi-modal Multi-modal is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jul 2014
Posts: 1,138
Quote:
Originally Posted by rocketphish View Post
To view our report on on the Bank Street Canal Bridge Re-Design, including alternate designs that were considered, click here [PDF].
Thanks rocketphish, I'd never seen the report with the alternative designs. I continue to prefer any of the bike lane options, but I'm probably more comfortable in on-road bike lanes than most and I am not a fan of MUPs in urban locations
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #13  
Old Posted Jul 31, 2020, 6:26 PM
TransitZilla TransitZilla is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Posts: 2,736
Thanks rocketphish for posting! I'd seen this before but I don't think it's been posted on SSP before.

I think the recommended solution is probably the best of all the options. I get how a MUP in this context is a bit odd, but in practice it should be OK because bike traffic on the MUPs should be one way.

It's a compromise to ensure the bike lanes are protected and the pedestrian space is also wide enough. I did see a couple of options with the lanes a bit narrower (down to 3.3m). If they narrowed the lanes in this option to 3.3m, they would have an extra 60cm to add a bit more width or a barrier to protect each MUP.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #14  
Old Posted Jul 31, 2020, 9:49 PM
zzptichka zzptichka is online now
Registered User
 
Join Date: Dec 2015
Location: Outaouias
Posts: 1,722
Not sure why they are proposing a MUP. Seems like a sidewalk/cycletrack side-by-side shouldn't take up any more space.
Like on Main or Churchill for example.



Reply With Quote
     
     
  #15  
Old Posted Aug 1, 2020, 1:34 AM
TransitZilla TransitZilla is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Posts: 2,736
Quote:
Originally Posted by zzptichka View Post
Not sure why they are proposing a MUP. Seems like a sidewalk/cycletrack side-by-side shouldn't take up any more space.
Like on Main or Churchill for example.
Sidewalks are 2m wide, and the cycle track would be at least 1.5m. So they would need at least 3.5m per side, or an extra 1m total compared to having 3.0m MUPs on each side.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #16  
Old Posted Aug 2, 2020, 12:46 PM
Aylmer's Avatar
Aylmer Aylmer is offline
Still optimistic
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Montreal (C-D-N) / Ottawa (Aylmer)
Posts: 5,383
They could actually get the full 3.5m if they just narrowed the lanes a bit. It frustrates me to no end that we nickle and dime the sidewalks to their legal minimum, yet keep full-size lanes. The City's and OC's guidelines allow for 3.2m lanes, which would be enough to get adequate and fully-separated sidewalks.

Even 3.2 is wider than most jurisdictions, where 3 is accepted.
__________________
I've always struggled with reality. And I'm pleased to say that I won.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #17  
Old Posted Aug 2, 2020, 4:02 PM
On Edge On Edge is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Oct 2012
Posts: 153
What a disaster in the making. If the bridge can be widened a little they should have simply made two lanes bus-only, and widen sidewalks a bit so bikes can be walked across. Bank Street is terrible for transit movement through here, not to mention car traffic backups. Like it or not Bank is a main north-south artery and will continue to be more so as development grows in the south and no transit improvements are in the pipeline.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #18  
Old Posted Jun 10, 2022, 10:11 PM
DarthVader_1961 DarthVader_1961 is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Posts: 357
Bank street bridge

Cunstruction signs up on either end of the Bank Street bridge, signs say construction between Sunny-side and Exhibition

Last edited by DarthVader_1961; Jun 10, 2022 at 10:13 PM. Reason: Correct typo
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #19  
Old Posted Jun 20, 2022, 12:56 PM
DarthVader_1961 DarthVader_1961 is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Posts: 357
Looks like they are ramping up.. traffic has been rearranged, via the use of pylons, so they west side of the bridge has no cars in it
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #20  
Old Posted Jun 20, 2022, 5:03 PM
lrt's friend lrt's friend is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Posts: 11,841
Traffic was at a standstill prior to Friday night's Redblacks game. We gotta off the bus and walked. Awful!
Reply With Quote
     
     
This discussion thread continues

Use the page links to the lower-right to go to the next page for additional posts
 
 
Reply

Go Back   SkyscraperPage Forum > Regional Sections > Canada > Ontario > Ottawa-Gatineau > Transportation
Forum Jump


Thread Tools
Display Modes

Forum Jump


All times are GMT. The time now is 4:48 PM.

     
SkyscraperPage.com - Archive - Privacy Statement - Top

Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.