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  #681  
Old Posted Jan 30, 2009, 9:21 PM
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Originally Posted by kph06 View Post
A friend of mine worked at the Harbour Side Market last summer and she said then that all the current tenants were leaving, but did hear Subway was on the way in.
I was there a while ago and the only thing that still seemed to be operating was the coffee place, though it did appear that it was more of a seasonal shutdown.
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  #682  
Old Posted Jan 30, 2009, 10:46 PM
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I was there a while ago and the only thing that still seemed to be operating was the coffee place, though it did appear that it was more of a seasonal shutdown.
Timothy's coffee is the only place that stays open year round, everything else in that food court shuts down for winter. But it looks like the article is correct... I'm just as surprised as you Haliguy, but I was there a few weeks ago and everything is gone. And I don't just mean closed up, the signs are gone, the menus are gone, the counters and ovens and deep fryers, everything is completely gone. They're just empty shells.
I used to get lunch at the seafood place there once a week when I was working in the area.
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  #683  
Old Posted Jan 30, 2009, 11:43 PM
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That was quoted in the paper from the developers under oath testimony.

It is well know in the industry that this has happened, just the public hasn't been made aware.
SDM you are buying this Ben McCrea song and dance hook line & sinker. He is losing money because is a poor business manager. If he was worthy of the Chamber of Commerce distinction he received he would not be in this pickle. Waterside is a bad development, it destroys what little we have left of heritage properties, it creates very little in terms of new office space, it is an ugly building and the jobs created are short term construction jobs if they can find anyone to work on the project at all. The world is not waiting for Waterside and Waterside will NOT save the food court in Historic Properties.. The offshore financial companies will have options with the new Trade Centre, International Place etc. If these projects are not viable then neither is Waterside. If Rodney MacDonald wants to do something constructive then he can give a loan guarantee to a real office project.
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  #684  
Old Posted Jan 31, 2009, 1:24 AM
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Originally Posted by Empire View Post
SDM you are buying this Ben McCrea song and dance hook line & sinker. He is losing money because is a poor business manager. If he was worthy of the Chamber of Commerce distinction he received he would not be in this pickle. Waterside is a bad development, it destroys what little we have left of heritage properties, it creates very little in terms of new office space, it is an ugly building and the jobs created are short term construction jobs if they can find anyone to work on the project at all. The world is not waiting for Waterside and Waterside will NOT save the food court in Historic Properties.. The offshore financial companies will have options with the new Trade Centre, International Place etc. If these projects are not viable then neither is Waterside. If Rodney MacDonald wants to do something constructive then he can give a loan guarantee to a real office project.


Gee, I am pleasantly surprised to see such a positive commented post from you regarding this development and developer.

You obviously have some personal hatred on for not only the project but, as now further shown, the person developing it.

I mean to comment that the developer is a "poor manager" because he is losing money because tenants are either going bankrupt or doing what is required of them to protect their businesses is not only a ignorant comment, its just plain stupid. Then, only to finish it off, a less then appropriate comment that the recent recognition awarded is unwarranted.

Not sure if you caught the news yesterday, but Nova Scotia Crystal is now filing for Bankruptcy protection.

To me the signal is loud and clear, not song and dance. The feasibility of Downtown retail is failing further. Without people and projects, regardless of personal opinions if they are quality or not, means worse news is yet to come.
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  #685  
Old Posted Jan 31, 2009, 1:36 AM
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Originally Posted by sdm View Post
Gee, I am pleasantly surprised to see such a positive commented post from you regarding this development and developer.

You obviously have some personal hatred on for not only the project but, as now further shown, the person developing it.

I mean to comment that the developer is a "poor manager" because he is losing money because tenants are either going bankrupt or doing what is required of them to protect their businesses is not only a ignorant comment, its just plain stupid. Then, only to finish it off, a less then appropriate comment that the recent recognition awarded is unwarranted.
Do you know that Ben McCrea said at the URAB hearing he didn't realize the buildings at Waterside were structurally unsound when he purchased them??
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  #686  
Old Posted Jan 31, 2009, 1:45 AM
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Do you know that Ben McCrea said at the URAB hearing he didn't realize the buildings at Waterside were structurally unsound when he purchased them??
Yeah and i bought a car once and didn't realize the thing burnt oil? Your point is?

I am not sure what the intentions of your post are? Your obviously looking to either argue over the internet on subject that neither of us control, and or need to vent your hatred.

Oh, and it's UARB, not URAB
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  #687  
Old Posted Jan 31, 2009, 1:54 AM
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Jonovision Jonovision is offline
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I don't fully understand all this pleading they are doing for this development. NSBI mentions they need roughly 22 storeys of office space in the next 5 years. Well, it seems to me that just 1 block away from this development is International Place which is set to start at any time.
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  #688  
Old Posted Jan 31, 2009, 2:04 AM
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I don't fully understand all this pleading they are doing for this development. NSBI mentions they need roughly 22 storeys of office space in the next 5 years. Well, it seems to me that just 1 block away from this development is International Place which is set to start at any time.
I am taking a guess here, but the pleading is that the development of office buildings, regardless of the project(s), is a strong message to send to investors and businesses looking at Halifax.

Knowing the Industry I can say that the amount of office space needed in the next 24 months is expected to be below the historical norm of 80,000 square feet of positive NET absorption. Therefore, unless we exceed the above amount by a significant margin, we won’t see the larger projects come to life soon. And in this day of age of financing it requires significant pre-leasing to secure (above 70% now).

So for a building like International place they would need to see at least 280,000 square feet leased before they would begin construction. Now they certainly could start sooner, but run the risk that plagued most of the 90’s office development downtown when Purdys II can to market and basically leased space at a loss due to over supply. This then caused the economic rent numbers to be dragged down to a level that made it unattractive to build and unable to be financed.
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  #689  
Old Posted Jan 31, 2009, 1:31 PM
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Yeah and i bought a car once and didn't realize the thing burnt oil? Your point is?

I am not sure what the intentions of your post are? Your obviously looking to either argue over the internet on subject that neither of us control, and or need to vent your hatred.

Oh, and it's UARB, not URAB
Cool it cowboy, you are way out of line. Ben McCrea has said repeatedly that he is a structural expert but yet he buys five buildings that have massive structural defects and doesn't know it? That is poor buisness management. He also said he didn't realize that they were registered heritage properties.
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  #690  
Old Posted Jan 31, 2009, 2:00 PM
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Originally Posted by Empire View Post
Cool it cowboy, you are way out of line. Ben McCrea has said repeatedly that he is a structural expert but yet he buys five buildings that have massive structural defects and doesn't know it? That is poor buisness management. He also said he didn't realize that they were registered heritage properties.

So... the fact is the buildings are worthless as it stands now without a major overhaul which is what he wants to do. Your and the HT agruments against this development makes no sense. If the HT is gainst this developement then they should buy the buildings at market value or shut up about it.

Last edited by Haliguy; Jan 31, 2009 at 5:22 PM.
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  #691  
Old Posted Jan 31, 2009, 2:32 PM
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Originally Posted by Empire View Post
Cool it cowboy, you are way out of line. Ben McCrea has said repeatedly that he is a structural expert but yet he buys five buildings that have massive structural defects and doesn't know it? That is poor buisness management. He also said he didn't realize that they were registered heritage properties.
I am out of line? Correct me if I am wrong, but i am not the one publicly questioning the business ethic's of the developer. Then on top of that questioning the fact if he is actually qualified structural expert..

Regardless of what was known or unknown, you fail to recognize the fact that the developer is trying to save the buildings, albeit the facades.
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  #692  
Old Posted Jan 31, 2009, 2:37 PM
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Originally Posted by Haliguy View Post
So what the fact is the buildings are worthless as it stands know without a major overhaul which is what he wants to do. Your aanf the HT agruments against this development make no sense. If the HT is gainst this developement then thaye should buy the buildings at market value or shut up about it.
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  #693  
Old Posted Jan 31, 2009, 2:37 PM
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Originally Posted by Empire View Post
Cool it cowboy, you are way out of line. Ben McCrea has said repeatedly that he is a structural expert but yet he buys five buildings that have massive structural defects and doesn't know it? That is poor buisness management. He also said he didn't realize that they were registered heritage properties.
Cool it? I am not the one publicly questioning the business ethic's of a person.

Regardless of what was known or unknown, you fail to recognize the fact that the developer is trying to save the buildings, albeit the facades.
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  #694  
Old Posted Jan 31, 2009, 3:10 PM
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Cool it? I am not the one publicly questioning the business ethic's of a person.

Regardless of what was known or unknown, you fail to recognize the fact that the developer is trying to save the buildings, albeit the facades.
What I am saying is, it is very unusual for a notworthy developer to buy five historic buildings in the middle of downtown Halifax and not know of structural defects or that they are registered heritage buildings. Poor buisness management is a generous description of the situation.
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  #695  
Old Posted Jan 31, 2009, 4:16 PM
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I have to agree with Empire that this was clearly not a good investment for Ben. He should have known the mess he was getting into.

As for Ben saying that this building will save the Historic Properties mall and food court... WTF?! You have a huge hotel, the two Purdy's Towers and 1801 practically at the doorstep of that mall and food court already. Thousands of potential customers right there. Not to mention all of the current tenants of Historic Properties and the Law Courts. But somehow a tiny office building is going to save it? Please. I'm supportive of this development... but really... you have to come up with some better reasoning than that Ben. The mall is killing itself all on it's own. It has nothing do to with a lack of customers. There are thousands upon thousands of potential customers already within a 3 min walk of that mall. The problem is that the mall doesn't cater to locals and neither does the food court. The average office worker is looking for a quick and easy lunch around the $5 price range. It's a tourist mall. Period. More office workers will have no effect whatsoever.

Last edited by Takeo; Jan 31, 2009 at 4:26 PM.
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  #696  
Old Posted Jan 31, 2009, 4:19 PM
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What I am saying is, it is very unusual for a notworthy developer to buy five historic buildings in the middle of downtown Halifax and not know of structural defects or that they are registered heritage buildings. Poor buisness management is a generous description of the situation.
So no one is allowed to make mistake in life? The world is not perfect Empire, well maybe for you it is.

Besides, there might not have been signs of structural issues when the developer purchased them and only recently has it been found.
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  #697  
Old Posted Jan 31, 2009, 4:28 PM
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I have to agree with Empire that this was clearly not a good investment for Ben. He should have known the mess he was getting into.

As for Ben saying that this building will save the Historic Properties mall and food court... WTF?! You have a huge hotel, the two Purdy's Towers and 1801 practically at the doorstep of that mall and food court already. Thousands of potential customers right there. Not to mention all of the current tenants of Historic Properties and the Law Courts. But somehow a tiny office building is going to save it? Please. I'm supportive of this development... but really... you have to come up with some better reasoning than that Ben. The mall is killing itself all on it's own. It has nothing do to with a lack of customers. There are thousands upon thousands of potential customers already within a 1 min walk of that useless tourist trap of a mall.
As for an investment, well i invested in a number of quality bank stocks and they don't look so great these days.

Problem is only tourist shops will set up down there. Back in the days there were bass river chairs, Roots, A&W, royal diaper and some other quality retail. They all moved to Halifax shopping centre and or spring garden road because of the lack of traffic in the winter months.

I agree, this building will not save historic properties retail, but i certainly believe it will help the Harbourside in the winter by providing a nearby service.

One thing to remember regarding the other buildings; the hotel, purdy's is that they are on the pedway system and therefore people are less likely to endure the elements if they have the option not to go outside.
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  #698  
Old Posted Feb 1, 2009, 4:31 PM
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I have to ask. How long is this appeal going to continue? I thought I heard somewheres it was supposed to take 8 days but its now been over 10 days and they still have it listed as continuing on monday.
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  #699  
Old Posted Feb 1, 2009, 5:19 PM
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I have to ask. How long is this appeal going to continue? I thought I heard somewheres it was supposed to take 8 days but its now been over 10 days and they still have it listed as continuing on monday.
I saw in a recent article that it concludes Feb 4th, albeit there is no requirement for additional days. And according to the new rules the board needs to render a decision 45 days from the last day of the hearing. So one could expect a final decision in march, although that may not be final decision depending on the outcome as either party (HT, City, or Developer) have an option to appeal the decision of the board. If that happens it could be another 6 months plus.
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  #700  
Old Posted Feb 5, 2009, 11:02 AM
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No approval, no buildings
Armour: Downtown Halifax site will be demolished if Waterside rejection upheld

Thu. Feb 5 - 5:50 AM


Ben McCrea’s Armour Development wants to build a $16-million, nine-storey office building in downtown Halifax. (Staff)





The downtown Halifax buildings that make up the exterior of the proposed Waterside Centre will be demolished if a provincial regulator doesn’t overturn council’s rejection of the controversial project, a hearing heard Wednesday.

"There will be nothing left on that site by the end of this year if this project is not permitted to proceed," Armour Group lawyer George MacDonald told a Nova Scotia Utility and Review Board panel.

Armour Group is appealing regional council’s rejection — after a 9-9 tie vote — of the $16 million, nine-storey project designed for the corner of Duke, Upper Water and Hollis streets.

The applications for the demolition permits for each of the four buildings are already in hand, but the approval is delayed for one year because they are registered heritage properties.

The upper floors of the buildings used to house studios and classrooms for NSCAD University and have been described by Armour Group chairman Ben McCrea as a "rabbit warren."

Such a unique use could not be adapted for anyone else, Mr. MacDonald said Wednesday, and it’s a "fairy tale" to assume the university may return.

The university is now in new digs on the Halifax waterfront.

All that’s left are "functionally obsolete" buildings, he said.

The bills for the four properties are costing the Armour Group $250,000 annually.

A Lydon Lynch Architects plan to redesign the properties would incorporate the exteriors of the buildings and two infilling projects, providing the downtown with much-needed class A office space.

Trying to renovate the existing buildings into separate class B office buildings would cost between $2.5 and $6 million, Mr. MacDonald said.

He said the steep costs that would have to be paid to make the buildings functional could never be recouped through leases.

But Heritage Trust president Phil Pacey said he believes alternatives are possible.

Class C office space or school classrooms are a possibility without drastic alterations in the buildings, Mr. Pacey told reporters outside the hearing in downtown Halifax.

"We are working for a reasonable solution . . . and we hope that all parties, the provincial and municipal governments in particular, will join us in trying to work (toward) preserving the buildings in their entirely."

His group says the project violates the city’s heritage strategy, diminishes the heritage character of the streetscape and overpowers the remaining historical elements of the neighbourhood.

A land transfer for vacant city and province-owned vacant lots has been proposed as an alternative to development of the site.

One of the four heritage buildings affected by the proposed development was up for discussion Tuesday during a closed-door session of regional council.

However, the property matter under discussion for the Imperial Oil building, as the building which houses O’Carroll’s is called, did not involve a land swap, a regional councillor said Wednesday.

Cathy MacIsaac, a spokeswoman for Transportation and Infrastructure Renewal, said Wednesday that there are no negotiations regarding a land swap for Mr. McCrea’s buildings on Upper Water Street.

Mr. Pacey admitted that the buildings could possibly be demolished.

"Council made a clear and simple decision . . . and followed their own policy, which is exactly what they are supposed to do."

Although closing arguments in the eight-day appeal wrapped up late Wednesday afternoon, the sides still have until Feb. 16 to file any final written submissions.

From there, the panel has 60 days to file its decision.
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