Halifax Stadium Discussion

[Keith P.]

Originally Posted by Takeo

Bear in mind that any site would probably have to be at least 200 meters square to accommodate a stadium of any size to allow for stands and parking... etc. The field alone is what... 160 feet x 360 feet? (approx. 50m x 110m). Few spots on the Peninsula fit that bill. I like the North End (near Superstore / Willow DND area). Makes sense. Great traffic connections to the MacKay and Bi-High. And Young Street is already a retail area so I some nicer bars and restaurants could spring up as a result.

I was looking at the Windsor St DND lands on Google and they seem to widen out considerably at the north end of the parcel, so it may be a feasible site yet.

[someone123]

I like that area for the potential spin-off effects. It's already kind of spread out, so in the worst case a stadium wouldn't hurt anything. In the best case it could become part of a new neighbourhood.

I don't think a stadium needs acres and acres of parking, nor would it be wise to add it. 50,000 people showed up for the Rolling Stones concert on the Common and it wasn't all turned into a parking lot. The fact is that in most parts of the city there is already a lot of parking and if there is a market for it it will spring up. Free or paid stadium parking would just go unused most of the time and would encourage everybody to drive when in reality maybe only half of them need to if the stadium's in the city.

[Empire]

Originally Posted by Keith P.

I was looking at the Windsor St DND lands on Google and they seem to widen out considerably at the north end of the parcel, so it may be a feasible site yet.

Does anyone have a contact at DND? No point waiting for councillors as they have proven how slow and disconnected they are time and time again. That whole area of Windsor/Kempt Rd, is being wasted with car lots. A stadium, new housing developments, parks, retail etc. The whole area from Young to Bedford Basin is poorly utilized considering it is on the peninsula.

[hfx_chris]

Originally Posted by Wishblade

I work for DND and the buildings in this park are in a pretty bad state of disrepair (I've worked in them) and I believe DND is in the process of finding another location and want to tear down a good portion of willow park. This could free up the land needed if DND were willing to sell the land. The only thing is I've heard their targeting between 2015-2017 so its a little too far into the future perhaps.

I know the Willow Park buildings are in rough shape, I just was unaware they were planning to replace them. I guess working at Shearwater I got used to the idea of operating out of ancient buildings/hangars

Originally Posted by fenwick16

I have tried a 30,000 seat stadium (Calgary's McMahon with a tier of seats removed thus making it about 30K seats) on different sites throughout the Halifax/Dartmouth area.

Umm..why hack up a stadium, when there are existing CFL stadiums with a 30k capacity?
Mosaic Stadium in Regina and Winnipeg Stadium are both what you're looking for, and you don't have to chop them up.

Next to the Dartmouth Sportsplex

Part of this land is already set aside for a future bus terminal, and the local residents are shitting themselves enough over that. I would love to see the looks on their faces if you proposed this to them (hint: prepare to be beat up)

On some mostly vacant land to the west of the Dartmouth Shopping Centre

Umm... there's a liquor store there and some streets which you seem to be forgetting about. Never seen a stadium built on stilts before, but...

At the foot of the MacDonald Bridge, to the north, right on the harbour

More DND property, and this time I'm quite certain there are no plans to displace this facility.

On a hillside park to the south of the Dartmouth Sportsplex. One section of stands could be built right into the hill.

Leighton Dillman Park (part of the Dartmouth Common) is basically Dartmouth's version of the Public Gardens. No, not as grand (or popular), but quite nice. I think building a stadium on stilts would be easier.

Next to the Citadel High School where the skate-park is

I've already expressed my thoughts on building a stadium on the Common, and how that would be virtually impossible.

[isaidso]

Originally Posted by hfx_chris

Umm..why hack up a stadium, when there are existing CFL stadiums with a 30k capacity?
Mosaic Stadium in Regina and Winnipeg Stadium are both what you're looking for, and you don't have to chop them up.

McMahon's a better stadium to use. It's symmetrical and one tier. You get a better representation of how many people you can fit into a certain size stadium without having to revert to more tiers (another variable).

[Dmajackson]

Originally Posted by Empire

Does anyone have a contact at DND? No point waiting for councillors as they have proven how slow and disconnected they are time and time again. That whole area of Windsor/Kempt Rd, is being wasted with car lots. A stadium, new housing developments, parks, retail etc. The whole area from Young to Bedford Basin is poorly utilized considering it is on the peninsula.

No but I can jump the fence in my backyard and see if anybody works in the forest.

There's tonnes of space at the Magazine Hill DND and Bedford Rifle Range DND (convient locations too right off of expressways) for any transportation infastructure required.

[fenwick16]

Originally Posted by isaidso

McMahon's a better stadium to use. It's symmetrical and one tier. You get a better representation of how many people you can fit into a certain size stadium without having to revert to more tiers (another variable).

My thoughts exactly. The seats that I cut out would amount to about 4,000 - 5,000 (since the capacity is actually around 35,000). I also like the fact that the end zones are open so temporary seating can easily be added to increase the capacity when required.

Like many US college stadiums and CFL stadiums, this started out much smaller at 22,000 seats and was expanded over the years ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/McMahon_Stadium ). It is interesting to note that when it was first built in 1960, Calgary would have been much smaller than Halifax currently is. Calgary would have been at the current Halifax metro population back in 1970 (about 400,000).

[isaidso]

Originally Posted by fenwick16

My thoughts exactly. The seats that I cut out would amount to about 4,000 - 5,000 (since the capacity is actually around 35,000). I also like the fact that the end zones are open so temporary seating can easily be added to increase the capacity when required.

Like many US college stadiums and CFL stadiums, this started out much smaller at 22,000 seats and was expanded over the years ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/McMahon_Stadium ). It is interesting to note that when it was first built in 1960, Calgary would have been much smaller than Halifax currently is. Calgary would have been at the current Halifax metro population back in 1970 (about 400,000).

All very true. It's also of note that Edmonton built Commonwealth Stadium back in 1978 when their city had a metropolitan population of just over 600,000. Commonwealth now seats 62,000 fans, but I believe started off at around 40,000. Can any one verify?

I'm sure you're aware of this, but a football field is 65 yards (195 feet) by 150 yards (450 feet) including the end zones. Through rough extrapolation you can estimate how much larger a stadium can get by continuing a grand stand to the end zones to create a horseshoe. The curve at the corners is a little trickier, but it's not hard to get a somewhat accurate total.

Another factor one should consider is sunken bowls. Winnipeg's proposed new stadium is drastically reducing construction costs by using a site where this is possible. The amount of concrete needed and the actual size of the structure is greatly reduced. From grade, one would actually walk down to the lower bowl, and up to get to the upper bowl.

There's also a steel company in Montréal (maybe Canam Manac) that has designed football stands that are made of steel frame rather than concrete. This is another way to significantly reduce costs and is gaining traction with cash strapped high schools, colleges, and municipalities.

Side note: I have a College football facilities and stadia thread that I started a few months ago. Here's the link:

http://www.cisfootball.org/forums/showthread.php?t=6064

I hope you find it interesting on some level. By the way, I'm a Dalhousie alumnus now living in Toronto. Marshaling forces to get a football stadium for Halifax has been a long time interest of mine. I'm obviously somewhat biased, but discussion about a football stadium in Halifax shouldn't just revolve around a CFL team and SMU. Dalhousie once had a team too, and should be part of the equation.

[fenwick16]

Originally Posted by hfx_chris

I know the Willow Park buildings are in rough shape, I just was unaware they were planning to replace them. I guess working at Shearwater I got used to the idea of operating out of ancient buildings/hangars


Umm..why hack up a stadium, when there are existing CFL stadiums with a 30k capacity?
Mosaic Stadium in Regina and Winnipeg Stadium are both what you're looking for, and you don't have to chop them up.


Part of this land is already set aside for a future bus terminal, and the local residents are shitting themselves enough over that. I would love to see the looks on their faces if you proposed this to them (hint: prepare to be beat up)

Umm... there's a liquor store there and some streets which you seem to be forgetting about. Never seen a stadium built on stilts before, but...

More DND property, and this time I'm quite certain there are no plans to displace this facility.

Leighton Dillman Park (part of the Dartmouth Common) is basically Dartmouth's version of the Public Gardens. No, not as grand (or popular), but quite nice. I think building a stadium on stilts would be easier.

I've already expressed my thoughts on building a stadium on the Common, and how that would be virtually impossible.

Thanks for the info on the Dartmouth locations. The one with the liquor store is a bit tight anyway and yes one street would have to be shortened (it isn't a through-way though, just a very short residential street).

I was afraid that the one site east of the Sportsplex was the location of the new bus terminal, however, why not combine a bus terminal and stadium? Seems like a good match since people will be getting off the bus to go to the stadium.

I prefer to think of the one location as the skate-park area as opposed to the Commons. After all, who would have thought of building a skate-park on the Commons?

[Keith P.]

Originally Posted by Bedford_DJ

There's tonnes of space at the Magazine Hill DND and Bedford Rifle Range DND (convient locations too right off of expressways) for any transportation infastructure required.

Both of those are active facilities and both sites have huge environmental remediation issues. Don't hold your breath.

[Empire]

Originally Posted by fenwick16

I prefer to think of the one location as the skate-park area as opposed to the Commons. After all, who would have thought of building a skate-park on the Commons?

The skate park at the Commons used to be a bad wading pool. The new skate park cost a lot of money $100-200k and had input from numerous youth groups. Dawn Sloan claims it as her baby. All of the common land is sacred. When they tear down QEH which is built on cheap common land there will be any outcry to return it to park common land. Citadel high is on common land but replaced a community college so it wasn't seen as robbing more land.

[isaidso]

fenwick17:

Could you do a depiction of McMahon for the Halifax Mainland North Common where Halifax West High School is? I'm interested in the parcel of vacant land where the new soccer fields are. If you're unfamiliar with this area, the lot would be between Thomas Radall Drive and where Chadwick Place ends.

Further south are football fields. At the corner of Lacewood and Thomas Radall they are building a recreation centre with an indoor swimming pool. There are already baseball diamonds here as well. The whole Common is turning into a massive sports and recreation focused area.

Not only is Lacewood right there, but Highway 102 is literally only 1 km away. A looked the lot over last summer. It's great, and the view of Halifax from a stadium here would be spectacular. As you know, this is at the top of Clayton Park which over looks Bedford Basin! It's an awesome site.

If it's too tight a site, there's plenty of land on the other side of the soccer fields.

[fenwick16]

Originally Posted by isaidso

All very true. It's also of note that Edmonton built Commonwealth Stadium back in 1978 when their city had a metropolitan population of just over 600,000. Commonwealth now seats 62,000 fans, but I believe started off at around 40,000. Can any one verify?

True, and it has a sunken bowl. ( http://www.edmonton.ca/attractions_r...th-stadiu.aspx )

I'm sure you're aware of this, but a football field is 65 yards (195 feet) by 150 yards (450 feet) including the end zones. Through rough extrapolation you can estimate how much larger a stadium can get by continuing a grand stand to the end zones to create a horseshoe. The curve at the corners is a little trickier, but it's not hard to get a somewhat accurate total.

Yes, Canadian stadium dimensions are significantly more than US stadium dimensions.

Another factor one should consider is sunken bowls. Winnipeg's proposed new stadium is drastically reducing construction costs by using a site where this is possible. The amount of concrete needed and the actual size of the structure is greatly reduced. From grade, one would actually walk down to the lower bowl, and up to get to the upper bowl.

It also provides shelter to the stadium and results in a low height for those who are conscientious of such things. I think a sunken bowl is the best choice.

There's also a steel company in Montréal (maybe Canam Manac) that has designed football stands that are made of steel frame rather than concrete. This is another way to significantly reduce costs and is gaining traction with cash strapped high schools, colleges, and municipalities.

Side note: I have a College football facilities and stadia thread that I started a few months ago. Here's the link:

http://www.cisfootball.org/forums/showthread.php?t=6064

You have a great compilation of stadiums (i.e. stadia) on here.

I hope you find it interesting on some level. By the way, I'm a Dalhousie alumnus now living in Toronto. Marshaling forces to get a football stadium for Halifax has been a long time interest of mine. I'm obviously somewhat biased, but discussion about a football stadium in Halifax shouldn't just revolve around a CFL team and SMU. Dalhousie once had a team too, and should be part of the equation.

It is a small world. I was there from 1976 - 1980. Part of the time at TUNS which is now the Sexton campus of Dalhousie. I think that if the HRM council would set up a stadium Trust fund they would get contributions not only from Halifax area residents but ex-Nova Scotians throughout Canada.

[fenwick16]

Originally Posted by isaidso

fenwick17:

Could you do a depiction of McMahon for the Halifax Mainland North Common where Halifax West High School is? I'm interested in the parcel of vacant land where the new soccer fields are. If you're unfamiliar with this area, the lot would be between Thomas Radall Drive and where Chadwick Place ends.

Further south are football fields. At the corner of Lacewood and Thomas Radall they are building a recreation centre with an indoor swimming pool. There are already baseball diamonds here as well. The whole Common is turning into a massive sports and recreation focused area.

Not only is Lacewood right there, but Highway 102 is literally only 1 km away. A looked the lot over last summer. It's great, and the view of Halifax from a stadium here would be spectacular. As you know, this is at the top of Clayton Park which over looks Bedford Basin! It's an awesome site.

If it's too tight a site, there's plenty of land on the other side of the soccer fields.

ok. I will post it later tonight once it is done. Someone on this forum convinced me that the most important thing was having the stadium in a central area with very good public transit. Being in that location, do you think that it will be less successful since most people will need cars to get there?

[Dmajackson]

Originally Posted by Keith P.

Both of those are active facilities and both sites have huge environmental remediation issues. Don't hold your breath.

Don't worry I'm well aware of the land remediation problems (a.k.a. unexploded ammunition under the ground in my backyard). I think the Other Halifax Explosion and nice crater down the street shows that well.

The Magazine Hill site is well underused in my opinion. It might be costly to remove all of the ammunition and clean-up the ground but will be well worth it in the long run with it being more accessible and well if a fire ever breaks out here again the more vehicles available the better.

I'm not sure what use they have right now but the brick buildings at the top of the hill with the highway entrance/exit could be a good choice for transportation sheds and offices since I imagine the area has been cleared for dangerous ammunition.

[Phalanx]

Originally Posted by isaidso

...
There's also a steel company in Montréal (maybe Canam Manac) that has designed football stands that are made of steel frame rather than concrete. This is another way to significantly reduce costs and is gaining traction with cash strapped high schools, colleges, and municipalities. ...

Out of curiosity, do you know anything about the construction of BMO Field? I'm curious if they used an all steel system or not. I know the decking is metal of some sort. I'm just wondering because of the trouble they had with it shaking itself apart.

[someone123]

I'm still unconvinced that highway accessibility somehow trumps everything else, even if we're only talking about people coming by car. That 102 exit as it is barely handles Bayers Road traffic. I am guessing that the approach of relying on highway access would result in one or two huge bottlenecks and long waits that would be worse even for drivers than a location in the city. The reality is simply that it takes a lot of infrastructure to move 10,000+ cars in 30 minutes (even waiting that long to get out of a parking lot is very annoying) and it never ends up getting built.

It would even be slightly worse than that because Clayton Park is less central. It's farther away for people living in Dartmouth.

[fenwick16]

Originally Posted by Phalanx

Out of curiosity, do you know anything about the construction of BMO Field? I'm curious if they used an all steel system or not. I know the decking is metal of some sort. I'm just wondering because of the trouble they had with it shaking itself apart.

I remember hearing on the Toronto news that some of the bolts had to be tightened because they were coming loose. Didn't sound like a major problem. I have been in Camden Yards in Baltimore for a baseball game and the section that I was in was steel.

It would make sense to me to have a sunken bowl made of concrete so that it will be a retaining wall for the dirt/gravel of the sunken bowl and then have a second tier above ground of steel framing.

[Phalanx]

The CTV News article I read said that there were a number of locking nuts that actually fell off. They ended up re-tightening all of the structural bolts and adding a second locking nut.

[fenwick16]

Originally Posted by isaidso

fenwick17:

Could you do a depiction of McMahon for the Halifax Mainland North Common where Halifax West High School is? I'm interested in the parcel of vacant land where the new soccer fields are. If you're unfamiliar with this area, the lot would be between Thomas Radall Drive and where Chadwick Place ends.

Further south are football fields. At the corner of Lacewood and Thomas Radall they are building a recreation centre with an indoor swimming pool. There are already baseball diamonds here as well. The whole Common is turning into a massive sports and recreation focused area.

Not only is Lacewood right there, but Highway 102 is literally only 1 km away. A looked the lot over last summer. It's great, and the view of Halifax from a stadium here would be spectacular. As you know, this is at the top of Clayton Park which over looks Bedford Basin! It's an awesome site.

If it's too tight a site, there's plenty of land on the other side of the soccer fields.

Is this the correct area? If it is then there is lots of space.