Pseudo-Downtowns

[MonkeyRonin]

Originally Posted by urbandreamer

Whenever I'm in York Cemetery I'm always reminded that Willowdale was once an urban/small town strip with beautiful homes and churches; now almost completely redeveloped into a generic boring high rise strip with fake mcmansions replacing classic red brick bungalows. NYCC may have ethnic scripts on the facades but that doesn't make it cool.

Was North York Centre ever cool? Does it even need to be cool? It's busy, diverse, has a ton of fantastic restaurants, and is a destination retail strip for many communities.

In an alternate universe where North York never went high-rise, the Yonge St. strip would probably look something like Bloor St. through Etobicoke:

https://goo.gl/maps/LitP5ws2nwB2bf6A7

Which is a fine enough street I guess, but pretty hum-drum and with mediocre retail offerings. Could be anywhere from Kitchener to Mississauga. North York Centre is certainly a lot more interesting - and unique, in part because its high density, suburban high-rise retail strip is a built typology that isn't otherwise common.

[Doady]

Is a bungalow more beautiful than a farmstead? I'd rather see a bungalow destroyed instead of farmland or conservation area destroyed.

Honestly, I don't find North York City Centre very convincing as a "downtown". It's basically just a single corridor. Eventually you will see other suburban corridors like Yonge in Thornhill or Dundas in Mississauga or Queen in Brampton also redeveloped in a similar way, that won't make them "downtowns". Etobicoke City Centre is probably a better example of a "downtown".

[J.OT13]

On Gatineau, I would not qualify Hull as a pseudo-downtown. It's an extension of downtown Ottawa, with cultural institutions, walkable streets and a historic core of bars and restaurants. What it lacks are some basic services like grocery stores, which should come soon (within 2-3 years).

Gatineau's Aylmer and Buckingham also have their own downtown but both are historic cores of former villages, so I would not include them.

Agora between Hull and Aylmer is quite an impressive pseud-downtown. A mid-rise development around a pedestrian core, all retailers/restaurants are local. The area also includes a library, large central park and much more to come. The proposed tramway will likely serve it.

Photo_6553769_DJI_169_jpg_4469269_0_202148121322_photo_original by harley613, on Flickr

The other successful pseudo-downtown is in old Gatineau's De la Cité sector which was started in the 1990s. The area includes governmental and private office buildings, apartment/condo blocks, a Cegep, the city's central library, a performance space (Salle Odyssée), aa CLSC (Qubec medical clinic), a sports complex, National Archives cinema, restaurants, the Centre Slush Puppie (QMJHL and 3 community ice rinks) and a RapiBus station. More development is planned that will add density, a hotel and more retail space. The area though has an abundance of surface parking and lacks basics like a grocery store and pharmacy.

The pics only show a small part. See Google: https://www.google.com/maps/@45.4764...!3m1!1e3?hl=en

Photo_6553653_DJI_53_jpg_4376047_0_2021319125318_photo_original by harley613, on Flickr

[IMG]Photo_6553660_DJI_60_jpg_4114870_0_2021319125536_photo_original by harley613, on Flickr[/IMG]

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by J.OT13

On Gatineau, I would not qualify Hull as a pseudo-downtown. It's an extension of downtown Ottawa, with cultural institutions, walkable streets and a historic core of bars and restaurants. What it lacks are some basic services like grocery stores, which should come soon (within 2-3 years).

Yes, this mirrors what I said earlier about downtown Vieux-Hull. In the Canadian context it's kind of like downtown Lévis or Dartmouth. And while the latter two might have certain attributes that Vieux-Hull doesn't have, I'd say that overall Vieux-Hull actually feels more like an urban downtown than either of them.

Looking across the border a decent analogue for Vieux-Hull might actually be Jersey City, New Jersey. (With everything being proportionately super-sized there of course.)

[J.OT13]

Originally Posted by Razor

It's a no brainer for older cities that have amalgamated with other ones, but the lines get a little blurred with calling gathering areas in newer expanding far flung suburbs Pseudo downtowns..In Ottawa/Gat., The Quebec side (Hull) has a true downtown in the classic sense, but even though Kanata in Ottawa's West markets the Centrum as a downtown, it's really just a concentration of auto centric strip malls, restaurants and a movie theatre. People gather there, for sure, but the parking lot(s) are just as large in area as all the businesses. March road in Kanata is just a high tech corridor..I wouldn't even say that Ottawa has a pseudo downtown..Older urban neighbourhoods with a main street for sure..Having said that, I can see Kanata becoming like a future Mississauga or Scarborough given 50 years..You can almost see the seeds planted.

I would agree with this. Ottawa doesn't have anything outside of the pre-WWII city that can be considered a successful pseudo-downtown. As mentioned, Kanata has the high-tech hub, with around 25,000 workers, but it's surrounded by surface parking. It also has Centrum with a small Disney-fied pedestrian retail strip, but it's again surrounded by surface parking. Orleans has something similar, but it also has an old main street (St. Joseph) with potential to become something of value, and it's relatively close to Stage 2 of the O-Train (more or less 500 meters).

We also have Centrepoint in Nepean, with a library and performance space, City offices and Algonquin College, but again, very car oriented for an area that has been served by the Transitway for over 30 years (and soon by the O-Train).

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by J.OT13

The other successful pseudo-downtown is in old Gatineau's De la Cité sector which was started in the 1990s. The area includes governmental and private office buildings, apartment/condo blocks, a Cegep, the city's central library, a performance space (Salle Odyssée), aa CLSC (Qubec medical clinic), a sports complex, National Archives cinema, restaurants, the Centre Slush Puppie (QMJHL and 3 community ice rinks) and a RapiBus station. More development is planned that will add density, a hotel and more retail space. The area though has an abundance of surface parking and lacks basics like a grocery store and pharmacy.
]

I'd actually argue it has those amenities as there are four grocery stores and two pharmacies (and a bunch of other retail) directly across Maloney which is a five-minute walk away. Unfortunately they are not right in the sector itself and across a busy arterial boulevard, but it's not that unpleasant to cross these days as pedestrian infrastructure has been greatly improved. It remains a wide road but there are connecting sidewalks basically anywhere you want to go.

In terms of walkability in Gatineau city limits that would be my second choice as a place to live, behind the Wrightville-Les Galeries area in north-central Hull.

I'd rank both of these higher than the actual downtown in Vieux-Hull. Though as you say this might change in a few years and more everyday amenities come on board there.

[J.OT13]

Originally Posted by Acajack

I'd actually argue it has those amenities as there are four grocery stores and two pharmacies (and a bunch of other retail) directly across Maloney which is a five-minute walk away. Unfortunately they are not right in the sector itself and across a busy arterial boulevard, but it's not that unpleasant to cross these days as pedestrian infrastructure has been greatly improved. It remains a wide road but there are connecting sidewalks basically anywhere you want to go.

In terms of walkability in Gatineau city limits that would be my second choice as a place to live, behind the Wrightville-Les Galeries area in north-central Hull.

I'd rank both of these higher than the actual downtown in Vieux-Hull. Though as you say this might change in a few years and more everyday amenities come on board there.

I didn't consider what's across from Maloney. One has to cross the two lane RapiBus corridor, a train track and a 7 lane highway (with slip-lanes) all at once before then crossing classic suburban surface parking lots.

That said, Gatineau in general has done a far better job designing functional, or at the very least semi-functional, pseudo-downtowns. They are far ahead than Ottawa in that department. They also prove that we don't need high-rises to achieve this.

[esquire]

Originally Posted by Metro-One

Richmond is a pseudo-downtown that has largely been a success. You may not like it’s particular brand of urbanity but it definitely has an identity and sense of place.

Richmond is the "pseudo-downtown" that I am most familiar with and I agree that it is a success. It avoids that "condos around a mall" feeling that you get with other pseudo-downtowns in that region, and it actually feels like an organic city.

What I do like about it is that many parts feel old and established, it doesn't feel like it was all built 10 years ago. There are layers to the urbanity, as you would expect in a city. But what's interesting is that the older layers don't reflect traditional urbanity as you would expect in most places... the older layers mostly reflect the post-WWII suburban car culture. So you end up with some holdout run down convenience store like this one, with parking out front, surrounded by new, much denser developments.

[MonkeyRonin]

Originally Posted by Doady

Is a bungalow more beautiful than a farmstead? I'd rather see a bungalow destroyed instead of farmland or conservation area destroyed.

Honestly, I don't find North York City Centre very convincing as a "downtown". It's basically just a single corridor. Eventually you will see other suburban corridors like Yonge in Thornhill or Dundas in Mississauga or Queen in Brampton also redeveloped in a similar way, that won't make them "downtowns". Etobicoke City Centre is probably a better example of a "downtown".

What makes Etobicoke City Centre more "downtown-like" than North York's? There's just kind of...nothing there. It's a similar linear high-rise set up but smaller and without the retail density or civic centre component (though that's on the way).

It's not really a downtown because it's not an independent municipality, but NYCC does functional as a regional node.

[MonkeyRonin]

I think GTA downtowns could generally be categorized into 3 groups:

Brampton, Burlington, Oakville, Milton, Aurora, Newmarket, Whitby, and Oshawa - all have traditionally urban, pre-war cores that still function as their local downtowns (and in the case of Brampton, Oakville, and Burlington are seeing a fair bit of development & growth).

Mississauga, Markham, and Richmond Hill - these have traditional, pre-war sections as well (sometimes multiple), but also have newly developed "pseudo-downtowns" intended to serve as their city centres.

Vaughan, Ajax, and Whitby - which are entirely suburban and have no pre-war cores of substance (though in Vaughan's case is least is building a new urban centre).

[niwell]

"Centre Slush Puppie" is an incredibly funny corporate branding for an arena. Up there with the Smoothie King Center in New Orleans.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by niwell

"Centre Slush Puppie" is an incredibly funny corporate branding for an arena. Up there with the Smoothie King Center in New Orleans.

It is so far over the top on the tacky side that it sounds good.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by J.OT13

I didn't consider what's across from Maloney. One has to cross the two lane RapiBus corridor, a train track and a 7 lane highway (with slip-lanes) all at once before then crossing classic suburban surface parking lots.

That said, Gatineau in general has done a far better job designing functional, or at the very least semi-functional, pseudo-downtowns. They are far ahead than Ottawa in that department. They also prove that we don't need high-rises to achieve this.

Fair enough about Maloney.

Though in recent years I had to walk across the intersection of Maloney and La Cité fairly regularly, and it wasn't that bad.

There are limits to what you can do, but Gatineau has actually put some effort into making a few of the intersections and crosswalks along Maloney more pedestrian-friendly.

La Cité is one of them, as is the one in front of Les Promenades (Rue de l'Alliance, near the Rapibus station of the same name).

[J.OT13]

Originally Posted by Acajack

Fair enough about Maloney.

Though in recent years I had to walk across the intersection of Maloney and La Cité fairly regularly, and it wasn't that bad.

There are limits to what you can do, but Gatineau has actually put some effort into making a few of the intersections and crosswalks along Maloney more pedestrian-friendly.

La Cité is one of them, as is the one in front of Les Promenades (Rue de l'Alliance, near the Rapibus station of the same name).

I haven't crossed that intersection since the mid-2000s, before the RapiBus, so I can't speak to improvements. I think a pedestrian bridges might be warranted between the RapiBus stations and the south side of Maloney.

[hipster duck]

Originally Posted by MonkeyRonin

Vaughan, Ajax, and Whitby - which are entirely suburban and have no pre-war cores of substance (though in Vaughan's case is least is building a new urban centre).

Whitby has an actual downtown, albeit small.

***

Canadian suburbs have pseudo-downtowns because they are just creations of the province where a former rural township of a vast area was amalgamated into a single municipality when it became apparent that they were in the path of sprawl and needed urban servicing.

These places had a handful of existing villages, but since these places were both very small and positioned in far corners of this new entity, most of these newly-formed municipalities just chose a centralized plot of land with good highway access and designated it their new town centre.

Mississauga, Laval, Surrey, Vaughan, Markham, Scarborough and many other giant suburbs are exactly that.

Then there are other municipalities that were amalgamations of a collection of fully-grown towns or cities, like Gatineau, St. Catharines, Cambridge or Thunder Bay. These places have real downtowns, but maybe not as impressive or important as they could be given the population and are multi-nodal.

[esquire]

^ My impression of Thunder Bay is that it's a lot like Minneapolis-St. Paul... basically two cities with separate downtowns side by side with each other.

That's one thing that is interesting about MSP... you basically have two full-fledged urban downtown areas maybe 20-odd km apart? Downtown Minneapolis is basically along the lines of downtown Calgary, and downtown St. Paul is a bit like downtown Winnipeg. But they are two totally different beasts.

[niwell]

Whitby's downtown is actually pretty nice from what I remember. It started getting more upscale establishments before Oshawa's real downtown which was seen as rundown and kinda dodgy. It also helps that it's fairly close to the GO station, and I had a few coworkers who moved out there to take advantage of being to live walking distance from amenities and a relatively easy commute to downtown Toronto.

[hipster duck]

Originally Posted by esquire

^ My impression of Thunder Bay is that it's a lot like Minneapolis-St. Paul... basically two cities with separate downtowns side by side with each other.

That's one thing that is interesting about MSP... you basically have two full-fledged urban downtown areas maybe 20-odd km apart? Downtown Minneapolis is basically along the lines of downtown Calgary, and downtown St. Paul is a bit like downtown Winnipeg. But they are two totally different beasts.

What's funny is that in the 1970s the Ontario government forced Fort William and Port Arthur to amalgamate, and Galt, Preston and Hespeler to amalgamate into Cambridge, but they didn't give Kitchener and Waterloo the same treatment.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by J.OT13

I haven't crossed that intersection since the mid-2000s, before the RapiBus, so I can't speak to improvements. I think a pedestrian bridges might be warranted between the RapiBus stations and the south side of Maloney.

I am not a big fan of pedestrian bridges or underpasses to cross arterial roads. In my experience they're often little-used and can feel isolated and desolate. Women in particular don't generally feel safe using them when it's dark.

[manny_santos]

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