PHILADELPHIA | Lowrise/General Developments Thread

[PHL10]

Originally Posted by cafeguy

How come Philly never built subway stops from city hall to 30th in the early 1900s when the city's population was booming? I mean... how could they not have planned that an entire mile stretch would be important to have stops? I know it wasn't built up in west center city, but there was no forethought to predict that? We aren't talking early 1800s or anything... its technically the age of the modern society we live in today!

I'd imagine it was a combination of the Chinese Wall and the fact that the Subway trolley stops at 19th and 22nd Streets.

Even today, if your destination is west of say, 18th Street (3 blocks from the 15th Street stop), transferring to the trolley for free at either 13th Street or 15th Street is pretty easy especially with the frequency of the sum of the trolley routes.

[cafeguy]

Originally Posted by PHL10

I'd imagine it was a combination of the Chinese Wall and the fact that the Subway trolley stops at 19th and 22nd Streets.

Even today, if your destination is west of say, 18th Street (3 blocks from the 15th Street stop), transferring to the trolley for free at either 13th Street or 15th Street is pretty easy especially with the frequency of the sum of the trolley routes.

Transferring certainly is easy, but the amount of time it takes to walk through the labyrinth and to the trolley stop, then jump on...it seems like it would only ever be worth it if you are maaaaybe going to 22nd street. Since there is nothing at 22nd street and market to do, you would likely be heading to rittenhouse or the parkway and at that rate, just walking diagonally from city hall would make more sense than transfering.

[br323206]

Originally Posted by PHL10

I'd imagine it was a combination of the Chinese Wall and the fact that the Subway trolley stops at 19th and 22nd Streets.

Even today, if your destination is west of say, 18th Street (3 blocks from the 15th Street stop), transferring to the trolley for free at either 13th Street or 15th Street is pretty easy especially with the frequency of the sum of the trolley routes.

This is correct. The Chinese wall occupied that space, making it impractical. I agree with the other poster that there are too many stops east of Broad. Today, it would make more sense to have 19th, 15th, 11th, 5th, 2nd--eliminating 13th and 8th and adding a stop at 19th.

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[cafeguy]

Originally Posted by br323206

This is correct. The Chinese wall occupied that space, making it impractical. I agree with the other poster that there are too many stops east of Broad. Today, it would make more sense to have 19th, 15th, 11th, 5th, 2nd--eliminating 13th and 8th and adding a stop at 19th.

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Add a stop to 19th or 22nd would make sense. But you can't get rid of 8th or 13th since those are vital connections to the patco and the trolley line. I'd elliminate 11th if anything..maybe 5th...but both have their place for the historic center and jerfferson station direct access. Maybe if they build something tall along west market with density, they will subsidize the creation of a subway stop along market somewhere. although...probably wouldn't be easy since the tunnel is so much skinnier. I can't imagine a way to make a stop without the need of spending lots of money to increase the tunnel or move some trolley tracks

[allovertown]

Originally Posted by br323206

This is correct. The Chinese wall occupied that space, making it impractical. I agree with the other poster that there are too many stops east of Broad. Today, it would make more sense to have 19th, 15th, 11th, 5th, 2nd--eliminating 13th and 8th and adding a stop at 19th.

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Getting rid of subway stations is tricky because infrastructure and decisions have already been made based on the existence of stations east of Broad.

For example, getting rid of 8th would be a terrible idea as it connects with the Broad Ridge Spur and the PATCO high speed line. 5th is necessary as it provides direct access to the biggest tourist destinations in the city. 11th connects to Jefferson Station.

The least necessary are 13th and 2nd, but there are also problems there. 2nd street is only a few blocks from 5th and is fairly low volume, but Philadelphia is trying to bring energy and vitality to Penn's Landing and the riverfront, removing the closest station would be a step back from those goals and if Philadelphia is actually successful in revitalizing the waterfront the demand for the station will be there in the future. 13th street is hard because it's connected to SEPTAs headquarters and for simply selfish reasons it seems unlikely to go anywhere. And even beyond the location of SEPTA's headquarters, 13th street provides by far the easiest transfer from the MFL to the green line trolleys. Transferring between the two lines is much harder at both 15th street and 30th street.

Ideally SEPTA would take the opportunity to increase the ease of transfer between the two lines while they redo the transportation nexus under city hall in the coming years, making 13th largely irrelevant and then at least that could be removed. Beyond that it's hard to remove another stop.

Adding a stop at 19th has been desired for decades, but it would be costly and in system with a limited budget where deciding to do one thing means not doing something else it will always be hard to justify creating a stop there when other projects can do more with less money. Hopefully some day in the future.

[1487]

11th is really the only one you could close without significant impact

[br323206]

You guys are right. I never thought about the trolley transfer or the PATCO transfer. Oh well, it's just a thought experiment anyway. I'm confident that removing stops is something that won't actually ever happen.

[wondertwinalpha]

I am pretty sure I am not the only person on here that hopes one day we will fill these lots with wonderful buildings. I feel that since these lots are basically vacant or at least not fully developed, they present an opportunity. Now I am certainly no engineer and this may be pie-in-the-sky, but my dream for the future would be for SEPTA, the city (streets department, ect), and developers to work together to consolidate these lots and put a new subway station under two new skyscrapers (dare I say supertalls). The idea is that since large expensive holes will need to be dug to clean these lots and to build large buildings, that could serve as a cost cutting opportunity for SEPTA to rework the tracks and station to accommodate a subway stop and transfer point for the trolleys. I know there are many obstacles including money and demand for such buildings, but when dreaming, anything is possible. So this is my basic photoshop mock-up for the idea. Possible, not worth the cost, not needed, crazy......?

[cafeguy]

Originally Posted by wondertwinalpha

I am pretty sure I am not the only person on here that hopes one day we will fill these lots with wonderful buildings. I feel that since these lots are basically vacant or at least not fully developed, they present an opportunity. Now I am certainly no engineer and this may be pie-in-the-sky, but my dream for the future would be for SEPTA, the city (streets department, ect), and developers to work together to consolidate these lots and put a new subway station under two new skyscrapers (dare I say supertalls). The idea is that since large expensive holes will need to be dug to clean these lots and to build large buildings, that could serve as a cost cutting opportunity for SEPTA to rework the tracks and station to accommodate a subway stop and transfer point for the trolleys. I know there are many obstacles including money and demand for such buildings, but when dreaming, anything is possible. So this is my basic photoshop mock-up for the idea. Possible, not worth the cost, not needed, crazy......?

If only I could read your writing on that image. hahaha.

The subway would definitely need to be a straight shot, but putting large turns in that trolley probably wouldn't work. But, I think with the right kind of platform, you wouldn't need to move the trolley tracks too far outward...maybe even replacing where the platform is right now with trolley tracks and placing the platform inbetween like you have. That could probably work. They could even shut down the 22nd street trolley stop while they do that construction without disrupting much of anything other than a single stop for a few years!

If Comcast can put money towards having a brand new concourse built to connect to suburban station each time it builds a skyscraper... then I can imagine if another large building comes to this lot, it would definitely have the opportunity of working with septa to build a station. 22nd street is really the half way point between city hall and 30th st station anyway, making this a prime location for an entire other "downtown" central point!

[Late1]

Originally Posted by wondertwinalpha

I am pretty sure I am not the only person on here that hopes one day we will fill these lots with wonderful buildings. I feel that since these lots are basically vacant or at least not fully developed, they present an opportunity. Now I am certainly no engineer and this may be pie-in-the-sky, but my dream for the future would be for SEPTA, the city (streets department, ect), and developers to work together to consolidate these lots and put a new subway station under two new skyscrapers (dare I say supertalls). The idea is that since large expensive holes will need to be dug to clean these lots and to build large buildings, that could serve as a cost cutting opportunity for SEPTA to rework the tracks and station to accommodate a subway stop and transfer point for the trolleys. I know there are many obstacles including money and demand for such buildings, but when dreaming, anything is possible. So this is my basic photoshop mock-up for the idea. Possible, not worth the cost, not needed, crazy......?

You are definitely not the only person to hope that, as just the other day I was thinking the same thing regarding a supertall on that lot including a modern subway station (i.e., wide stairwells or even an escalator instead of the ridiculously narrow stairwells typical of Philly subways.) And wouldn't it be nice if it linked to a 22nd St subway line making up part of a finally-completed Center City loop incorporating the City Branch?

I even did a quick sketch (and then went on to do a completely ridiculous fantasy subway system with loads of lines) - but here's the basic one that would "only" (I know, expensive!) require finishing the PATCO line past Rittenhouse and up 22nd, connecting with the City Branch across to the Broad Ridge Spur. I also continued the trolley lines underground and then running (most likely above ground) down the Delaware waterfront.

So in this plan, both the City Branch and PATCO would act as circle lines (perhaps each running only in 1 direction, opposite to each other), around the "circle", as well as having a spur running into Jersey and out to the Zoo, the Mann, etc:

[iamrobk]

Others have (basically) said this, but they can't really eliminate 13th because of the way the trolleys loop around there, they can't eliminate 11th because it connects to Market East (sorry, Jefferson) Station, and they can't eliminate 8th because it connects to PATCO and the Broad-Ridge Spur. I GUESS they could try to re-configure the trolley loop (maybe extend it to 11th?) to eliminate 13th street... but as someone who got off at 13th every day last summer, I wouldn't like that haha.

[hammersklavier]

Originally, the El was supposed to run express through CC, stopping at 15th (Broad Street Station) and -- one would assume -- 11th (Reading Terminal) and 8th (Strawbridges/Lits/Gimbels). The trolleys would run local, stopping at the other stops.

What happened was that PRT, the company building it, ran out of money about halfway through and so truncated the trolley tunnel around Penn Square (City Hall). This forced the express el to handle all the service east of Broad, a suboptimal situation from the get-go.

That said, the fact is, is that the el is at capacity, and that interesting engineering solutions will likely be necessary to fix that problem.

Also Market Street is 100 feet wide. Engineering-wise, there is more than enough space to platform everything in the existing ROW with skillful design.

[philatonian]

Some decent infill near Washington Square...

http://www.bizjournals.com/philadelp...ilding-in.html

[Londonee]

Originally Posted by philatonian

Some decent infill near Washington Square...

http://www.bizjournals.com/philadelp...ilding-in.html

^^30+story apartment building announcements go in the main development thread.

6 Story building updates like Toll Brothers in G-Ho or Society Hill would go here.

[Kidphilly]

Originally Posted by Late1

You are definitely not the only person to hope that, as just the other day I was thinking the same thing regarding a supertall on that lot including a modern subway station (i.e., wide stairwells or even an escalator instead of the ridiculously narrow stairwells typical of Philly subways.) And wouldn't it be nice if it linked to a 22nd St subway line making up part of a finally-completed Center City loop incorporating the City Branch?

I even did a quick sketch (and then went on to do a completely ridiculous fantasy subway system with loads of lines) - but here's the basic one that would "only" (I know, expensive!) require finishing the PATCO line past Rittenhouse and up 22nd, connecting with the City Branch across to the Broad Ridge Spur. I also continued the trolley lines underground and then running (most likely above ground) down the Delaware waterfront.

So in this plan, both the City Branch and PATCO would act as circle lines (perhaps each running only in 1 direction, opposite to each other), around the "circle", as well as having a spur running into Jersey and out to the Zoo, the Mann, etc:

I like the idea odf a 22nd street stop

while on dream plans here goes

https://www.google.com/maps/d/edit?m...o.k1JXjX9gyItI

[summersm343]

4224 Baltimore

New renderings. Looks like 8 floors is going to be the final design.









Link to CDR submission here:
http://www.phila.gov/CityPlanning/pr...0FOR%20WEB.pdf

[summersm343]

Conceptual designs for Love Park redesign





Article here:
http://planphilly.com/articles/2015/...lush-love-park

[Kidphilly]

According to the Census release Philly grew by ~4,200 in 2014 - data released today

[1487]

Originally Posted by Kidphilly

According to the Census release Philly grew by ~4,200 in 2014 - data released today

Yes and the article focused on how more people moved out than moved in. Im pretty sure this isnt uncommon in cities like NY- population growth driven by young newcomers, births and immigrants. The idea that familes (with the means, not poor people) look to move out of a city once they hit a certain point in life is not NEW, nor is it unique to Philadelphia. I really with the local media would stop with the worship of these millenials and this notion that if any of them decamp to Montco once they hit 35 we are doomed.

[Philly Kid]

Hmmm thought the city was growing by ~10K for the past few years. Is growth slowing or has this been the average rate we've seen since population started growing?