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  #741  
Old Posted Sep 27, 2019, 12:47 AM
CivicBlues CivicBlues is offline
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Originally Posted by whatnext View Post
LOL, right out of the United Front playbook. The disingenuous comments about an innocent cultural celebration, and the praise for "nuanced" discussion which convniently isn't critical of China.

Why don't you give us your "nuanced" comments about this?

...Drone footage has emerged showing police leading hundreds of blindfolded and shackled men from a train in what is believed to be a transfer of inmates in Xinjiang.

The video, posted anonymously on YouTube last week, shows what appear to be Uighur or other minorities wearing blue and yellow uniforms, with cleanly shaven heads, their eyes covered, sitting in rows on the ground and later being led away by police. Prisoners in China are often transferred with handcuffs and masks covering their faces.

Nathan Ruser, a researcher with the Australian Strategic Policy Institute’s international cyber policy centre, used clues in the footage, including landmarks and the position of the sun, to verify the video, which he believes was shot at a train station west of Korla in south-east Xinjiang in August last year.

Much of the focus of international criticism of China’s far-reaching anti-terrorism campaign in Xinjiang has centred on the extrajudicial detentions of more than 1 million ethnic Uighurs and other Muslim minorities in internment and political re-education camps...

https://www.theguardian.com/world/20...isoners-uighur
And what does any of have anything to do with a cultural celebration in Vancouver? Are you going to wish for a truck to drive through the Vaishaki parade because of India’s stance on Kashmir? Or that the Jews coming out of a Hanukkah celebration be maimed because of Israel's persecution of palestinians. Admit it, your comment was despicible and bordering on hate speech.

Face it, only reason you’re so gung ho about bashing China is because, to you, it represents the nasty yellow folk you see in your neighbourhood keeping you from affording a house in your beloved city. Doesn't matter to you that most have no ties to China and are Canadian citizens. Has nothing to do with feigned outrage you have with China and everything to do with gpod old fashioned racism. You’re as transparent as the glass condos you despise so much
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  #742  
Old Posted Sep 27, 2019, 4:37 PM
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Originally Posted by CivicBlues View Post
And what does any of have anything to do with a cultural celebration in Vancouver? Are you going to wish for a truck to drive through the Vaishaki parade because of India’s stance on Kashmir? Or that the Jews coming out of a Hanukkah celebration be maimed because of Israel's persecution of palestinians. Admit it, your comment was despicible and bordering on hate speech.

Face it, only reason you’re so gung ho about bashing China is because, to you, it represents the nasty yellow folk you see in your neighbourhood keeping you from affording a house in your beloved city. Doesn't matter to you that most have no ties to China and are Canadian citizens. Has nothing to do with feigned outrage you have with China and everything to do with gpod old fashioned racism. You’re as transparent as the glass condos you despise so much
Umm, no.

As other, more nuanced posters than you have pointed out the schlocky display is to celebrate 70 years of the Communist Party of China seizing power. Unlike your lame examples, this is not a religious or cultural display, it is one celebrating the Communist Party. One can only assume you would have been in favour of a similar installation in 1930 celebrating the 10th anniversary of the founding of the National Socialist Party if it featured buxom gals in dirndls and dudes in lederhosen, because "it's a cultural celebration".

In other news, McMaster University has just stripped the Chinese Students and Scholars Association of official status for being a mere tool of the Communist Government. I look forward to hearing your moaning and weeping about how racist it all is.

PS already got my house, so another fail for you.
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  #743  
Old Posted Sep 27, 2019, 5:32 PM
CivicBlues CivicBlues is offline
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Originally Posted by whatnext View Post
Umm, no.

As other, more nuanced posters than you have pointed out the schlocky display is to celebrate 70 years of the Communist Party of China seizing power. Unlike your lame examples, this is not a religious or cultural display, it is one celebrating the Communist Party. One can only assume you would have been in favour of a similar installation in 1930 celebrating the 10th anniversary of the founding of the National Socialist Party if it featured buxom gals in dirndls and dudes in lederhosen, because "it's a cultural celebration".

In other news, McMaster University has just stripped the Chinese Students and Scholars Association of official status for being a mere tool of the Communist Government. I look forward to hearing your moaning and weeping about how racist it all is.

PS already got my house, so another fail for you.
So yeah... the problem with that is the post you linked came AFTER you posted your little hate diatribe (check the time stamps), so for all intents and purposes you clearly thought it was only a "scholcky" Chinese cultural display when you mused about it's destruction. It was only conveniently pointed out after the fact that it had links to the CCP. It still adds fuel to the fire that you're a racist tool using this thread to further your personal agenda against Chinese Canadians many of whom suffered and escaped from the hands of the CCP itself. A group you clearly hold no distinction or sympathy for given your recent musings about Hong Kong Canadians. Face it, you don't give a crap about the billion people oppressed by the CCP and only want to use them as a convenient scape goat to further demonize Chinese Canadians in the eyes of the ignorant and malleable.

Case in point: I've never once defended the CCP (and dare you to find a single one of my posts doing so) yet all your rebuttals seem to devolve into calling me a CCP shill when I point out that I can clearly see through your racist schlock.

Last edited by CivicBlues; Sep 27, 2019 at 5:52 PM.
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  #744  
Old Posted Sep 27, 2019, 6:13 PM
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Originally Posted by CivicBlues View Post
So yeah... the problem with that is the post you linked came AFTER you posted your little hate diatribe (check the time stamps), so for all intents and purposes you clearly thought it was only a "scholcky" Chinese cultural display when you mused about it's destruction. It was only conveniently pointed out after the fact that it had links to the CCP. It still adds fuel to the fire that you're a racist tool using this thread to further your personal agenda against Chinese Canadians many of whom suffered and escaped from the hands of the CCP itself. A group you clearly hold no distinction or sympathy for given your recent musings about Hong Kong Canadians. Face it, you don't give a crap about the billion people oppressed by the CCP and only want to use them as a convenient scape goat to further demonize Chinese Canadians in the eyes of the ignorant and malleable.

Case in point: I've never once defended the CCP (and dare you to find a single one of my posts doing so) yet all your rebuttals seem to devolve into calling me a CCP shill when I point out that I can clearly see through your racist schlock.
Oh dear, wrong again as it had been mentioned earlier what the display was about.

As to Hong Kong, weren't you the one passionately denying any differences between HKers and other ethnic Chinese? I feel for the democracy protestors but as both you and I know Beijing will squash them when the right time comes, just as they did in Tiananmen in 1989. I have been critical of those who came to Canada, got a passport, and went back to HK becuase they could make more money. Not only is Canada better than a bolthole, it is insulting to all those true immigrants from HK, China or wherever country who actually do tough it out in establishing a new life in Canada.
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  #745  
Old Posted Sep 27, 2019, 6:34 PM
CivicBlues CivicBlues is offline
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Oh dear, wrong again as it had been mentioned earlier what the display was about.

As to Hong Kong, weren't you the one passionately denying any differences between HKers and other ethnic Chinese? I feel for the democracy protestors but as both you and I know Beijing will squash them when the right time comes, just as they did in Tiananmen in 1989. I have been critical of those who came to Canada, got a passport, and went back to HK becuase they could make more money. Not only is Canada better than a bolthole, it is insulting to all those true immigrants from HK, China or wherever country who actually do tough it out in establishing a new life in Canada.
Yes mcminsen was "wondering", and then the post was followed up with this one: http://forum.skyscraperpage.com/show...ostcount=17594 where there's no indication of any prima facie connection to the CCP. It's not like they're parading in Mao suits and chanting Xi Jingping thought in the middle of Georgia St. But of course, with any racially charged event nearly anything can be linked to dubious sources if given enough effort.

There are of course differences between HKers and other Chinese as there are huge differences within the country of China itself. I was however, debunking ssiguy's assertion that the cultures are entirely incompatible and were on the verge of sectarian violence within Canada, which is ridiculous.
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  #746  
Old Posted Sep 27, 2019, 7:22 PM
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There are of course differences between HKers and other Chinese as there are huge differences within the country of China itself.
Point of correction: China is 90% Han, and regional differences are actually relatively minimal within that ethnic group. Any marked differences within China are between the 90% Han majority and the other minority ethnic groups.

Oh, another thing: give the racism thing a rest already, it just degrades the conversation and nobody is buying it. What whatnext says might be contentious at times, but it's not racist.
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  #747  
Old Posted Sep 27, 2019, 8:13 PM
CivicBlues CivicBlues is offline
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Point of correction: China is 90% Han, and regional differences are actually relatively minimal within that ethnic group. Any marked differences within China are between the 90% Han majority and the other minority ethnic groups.

Oh, another thing: give the racism thing a rest already, it just degrades the conversation and nobody is buying it. What whatnext says might be contentious at times, but it's not racist.
Well generally speaking there are marked differences in culture, diet and religion between the northern and southern halves of the country. Not to mention huge language differences even within some provinces. The term "Han" has changed it's definition over the centuries to include peoples subjugated and subsumed by the Chinese state. But point taken, I'll tone down the SJW rhetoric once this thread becomes a forum for what it was intended for. Unless I am mistaken and Canada only has foreign relations with China.
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  #748  
Old Posted Sep 30, 2019, 8:33 PM
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Nice to know Ms meng has time to shop for Jimmy Choos and desiger duds while the two Canadians rot in a Chinese jail with limited consular contact.

...Canadian government lawyers have laughed off claims that Huawei executive Meng Wanzhou’s rights were abused when she was searched and questioned before her arrest at the request of the US at Vancouver airport last year, an event that triggered outrage from Beijing amid the US-China trade war.

Lawyers for Meng, who is currently in the midst of an eight-day evidence disclosure hearing as part of her battle to avoid extradition to the US, last week told Vancouver’s British Columbia Supreme Court that Canadian border officers conducted an illegitimate “covert criminal investigation” into her when they interviewed her, searched her belongings and seized her electronic devices when she arrived at the airport on December 1.

Crown lawyer Robert Frater said on Monday that the behaviour of the officers who dealt with Meng was “not at all sinister”, that there had been no attempt to cover up her treatment during her interrogation, and that a search of her belongings had not been made at the demand of the FBI.

“The trailer here delivers more than the movie delivers,” he told the court.

Frater’s remarks were watched by Meng, who attended in an all-white double-breasted suit-dress and Jimmy Choo stilettos, the latest in a series of striking designer outfits she has worn to her court hearings...


https://www.scmp.com/news/china/dipl...s-lawyers-tell

I'm sure we'll have Vin or Misher et al show up to let us know how thankful we should be to her for supporting all those retail jobs.
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  #749  
Old Posted Oct 1, 2019, 11:51 PM
NotToScale NotToScale is offline
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Originally Posted by CivicBlues View Post
I'll tone down the SJW rhetoric once this thread becomes a forum for what it was intended for.. :
Just tone down the SJW rhetoric in general
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  #750  
Old Posted Oct 7, 2019, 3:38 PM
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Honestly I know Hong Kong is going to be bad because the police there have become handicapped because the government has instructed them not to shoot. Now radicals have taken over knowing that they won’t be shot and this has led to insanity. Incidents like this are happening where protestors attack officers and the Chinese government is going to be forced to respond as protestors keep pushing the limits. Canadian officers would have shot in these situations. I condemn the radical protestors that are there to cause trouble and hurt people rather than protest the government’s actions and it’s a shame that a lot of people are willfully ignorant of their extremism.

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  #751  
Old Posted Oct 8, 2019, 12:08 AM
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It sucks to see people get hurt on both sides, but looking at the escalating violence in retrospect now, there really was no way to avoid this. It will continue, and it will get much worse.
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  #752  
Old Posted Oct 8, 2019, 12:22 AM
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I feel like I generally sympathize with the protesters, but I think the situation isn’t as black and white as many think. If anyone in familiar, Carl Zha on Twitter has had some interesting takes. Except when he gets suspended.
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  #753  
Old Posted Oct 8, 2019, 7:18 PM
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The USA and Canada have had talks about joint development of rare earth mines to block possible Chinese attempts to block supply:

...The United States is now on an accelerated path towards building out more reliable and sustainable supply chains.

A key part of that process, as laid out by the Commerce Department’s critical minerals strategy, published in June this year, is forming alliances with “friendly” suppliers.

CANADA AND AUSTRALIA
Top of the list are Canada and Australia. High-level discussions have already taken place with both countries.

President Trump and Canadian Prime Minister Justin Trudeau discussed “ways to improve mineral security and (…) work more closely to ensure secure and reliable supply chains” at a meeting in June.

The official Canadian press statement also noted that Trudeau “highlighted the importance of Canadian uranium to North American energy security,” a pointed reference to an ongoing U.S. investigation into uranium import dependency....


https://business.financialpost.com/c...nces-andy-home
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  #754  
Old Posted Oct 8, 2019, 7:45 PM
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It sucks to see people get hurt on both sides, but looking at the escalating violence in retrospect now, there really was no way to avoid this. It will continue, and it will get much worse.
Gwynne Dyer had a good take on this... he essentially said the protesters have won their battle against the extradition law but they won't win the war to have the rest of their demands granted by the PRC, so they might want to consider winding down their protests and get out while the getting is good. It's not a bad suggestion, but I wonder if this has simply escalated too much for the protesters to back down now.

It's funny that PRC couldn't have just let this sleeping dog lie. But then, if the long term cost of asserting the CPC's dominance is watching Hong Kong wither as a major global commercial centre, I suspect the party is OK with paying that price.
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  #755  
Old Posted Oct 8, 2019, 8:01 PM
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It's funny that PRC couldn't have just let this sleeping dog lie. But then, if the long term cost of asserting the CPC's dominance is watching Hong Kong wither as a major global commercial centre, I suspect the party is OK with paying that price.
A lot of higher ups in China personally use Hong Kong to convert their Chinese wealth into something useful for buying Italian villas.

Another thing to keep in mind is that there's no guarantee that China will always have a Xi Jinping style government. If Hong Kong stalls Chinese expansionism for 10-20 years the situation may change. Given how much China has changed in the past few decades I really doubt that what we have now is what we will have in 2047.

I am skeptical that a repressive and authoritarian regime is going to work out in China in the long run. I don't think it's very compatible with the economic and social progress that people there will demand more and more in the future. Western countries are also less idealistic about China than they were in the past, and collectively they are much more powerful than China is.
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  #756  
Old Posted Oct 8, 2019, 8:05 PM
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^ Good point. Eventually the growth train will slow down and people will start demanding more. Particularly when you consider that the average Chinese citizen is far more educated and worldly than when the PRC first came into existence. I think there might be a gradual awakening to the idea that China and the Communist Party are not inseparable.
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  #757  
Old Posted Oct 8, 2019, 8:12 PM
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^ Good point. Eventually the growth train will slow down and people will start demanding more. Particularly when you consider that the average Chinese citizen is far more educated and worldly than when the PRC first came into existence. I think there might be a gradual awakening to the idea that China and the Communist Party are not inseparable.
I think a lot of people view Western governments as one "style" of government that can be adopted while China has another style to pick from.

In reality, both government types have evolved over time according to domestic and international pressures. Liberal democracy is popular now because it's enormously successful. This was made abundantly clear in the 20th century as a bunch of countries tried out communism, failed, and then succeeded to the extent that they liberalized their economies. It's successful because when people are free and safe they try out new things like starting up businesses and inventing new technologies, and the benefits from this completely swamp everything else, to the point where if you fall behind in the technology game a small fleet of advanced ships can come and take over your country of hundreds of millions of people. Nobody knows how to automate or control this process, and China is stuck in it like everybody else. Xi Jinping is incredibly constrained. If he pushes too hard China will fall behind again.
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  #758  
Old Posted Oct 8, 2019, 8:37 PM
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Xi Jinping is incredibly constrained. If he pushes too hard China will fall behind again.
Therein lies China's problem. Governments can't make growth - they can set up the infrastructure for growth to occur, but they rarely drive innovation.

President Xi by all accounts is an old-school thinker with respect to that. Will he allow more flexibility, or will he become more old-school if China doesn't keep up its blistering pace? Regardless, the people can't do much if he's failing at the task as he appointed himself President for Life.
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  #759  
Old Posted Oct 8, 2019, 9:21 PM
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I am skeptical that a repressive and authoritarian regime is going to work out in China in the long run. I don't think it's very compatible with the economic and social progress that people there will demand more and more in the future.
Hasn't 1989's "end of history" already been disproved? Capitalism and dictatorship go just fine together, and I think you overestimate the power of the aspirational middle class to look beyond their noses. Social progress has always been driven by radicals who have to convince the masses of the justice of their movements. Suburban middle managers in Alabama in the 1960s would have been just fine continuing with separate drinking fountains.

The Communist authorities in China know their stuff. Letting "a hundred flowers bloom and a hundred schools of thought contend" was never going to be anything other than a lure to flush out troublemakers. If they can control the propaganda and clamp down on fringe elements they'll rule in perpetuity.

You'd think that the millions of Chinese students in foreign universities over the years might be infected by our freedoms and clamour for the same once they return home, but they don't. We Westerners have a very parochial and exaggerated estimation of how appealing our culture is.
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  #760  
Old Posted Oct 8, 2019, 9:39 PM
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Hasn't 1989's "end of history" already been disproved? Capitalism and dictatorship go just fine together, and I think you overestimate the power of the aspirational middle class to look beyond their noses. Social progress has always been driven by radicals who have to convince the masses of the justice of their movements. Suburban middle managers in Alabama in the 1960s would have been just fine continuing with separate drinking fountains.

The Communist authorities in China know their stuff. Letting "a hundred flowers bloom and a hundred schools of thought contend" was never going to be anything other than a lure to flush out troublemakers. If they can control the propaganda and clamp down on fringe elements they'll rule in perpetuity.

You'd think that the millions of Chinese students in foreign universities over the years might be infected by our freedoms and clamour for the same once they return home, but they don't. We Westerners have a very parochial and exaggerated estimation of how appealing our culture is.
Some truth to this. People need to remember that most revolution is driven by unhappiness. But the people of China are generally happy! They think the government is doing a good job and given the state China was in after WW2 they have mad enormous progress which has improved the quality of life and wealth of the average person.

The same can be said for Americans. To me as a Canadian, the American system of voting for one of two parties, both of whom are likely well connected to each other and made up of inherited elites is rulership by an oligopoly of the wealthy. But to Americans their system is the best system in the world. We may see the Chinese system as being bad but to them its a great system.

And what many ignore is that there is a lot of upward mobility in the Chinese system. Joining the government is seen as the lofty goal of many, and generally the best among the poor get in and rise in ranks as a government official. There is some patronage and family connections involved, but also there is a lot of intermarriage with families marrying those who are discovered to be talented into the family. This system allows people who are acknowledged as being the best/brightest to join the system which works to preserve the system. By allowing for a meritocracy they work to eliminate dissent among the people. Each town has a few locals who joined the government.

By co-opting the best, allowing for upward mobility, and improving the quality of life of its citizens the Chinese government has created a very stable nation.

I also want to remind people that Chinese don't necessarily think of themselves as being worse than Western nations. They have a very strong national pride in themselves and their nation. They can see China slowly expanding/progressing. They have a strong cultural history that supports this where China was seen as the center of the world with its leaders given the "Mandate of Heaven". Chinese look at democracies like India as well as America, so they can see that democracy does not necessarily result in a superior nation.

I also want to add at the end, Chinese people are DIFFERENT. They think differently than us. They have a different history, values, beliefs, etc. I can't understand their sense of humor when I watch their comedy shows. In Western nations we have been pushing the power of the "individual" for centuries. But Chinese do not have this, they have been ruled by emperors where each individual serves the government, even if its only a formality the emperor has always been at the top served by a bunch of advisers.

Western nations indoctrinate their children by teaching them that democracy is #1 in schools. But in China they teach them that Chinese Communism is #1. Both systems have been successful.
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