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  #61  
Old Posted Dec 10, 2020, 5:13 PM
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Originally Posted by Good Baklava View Post
You said it before I had the chance to. If peninsular haligonians or those in DT Dartmouth are made up of a sizeable proportion of cyclists, why not offer them suitable infrastructure?
So, what we have here ladies and gentlemen, is a classist and philosophical struggle between peninsular Haligonians who want the peninsula for themselves, and suburban Haligonians just trying to get onto the peninsula (using their personal motor vehicles) so that they can go to work and make a living.
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  #62  
Old Posted Dec 10, 2020, 5:41 PM
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What's cycling spending like for HRM compared to motor vehicle oriented spending? 1%? 5%?

The Burnside Expressway budget is around $210M.
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  #63  
Old Posted Dec 10, 2020, 7:25 PM
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Originally Posted by MonctonRad View Post
So, what we have here ladies and gentlemen, is a classist and philosophical struggle between peninsular Haligonians who want the peninsula for themselves, and suburban Haligonians just trying to get onto the peninsula (using their personal motor vehicles) so that they can go to work and make a living.

Or Vice Versa. You must live in Grand Barachois
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  #64  
Old Posted Dec 10, 2020, 7:30 PM
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Or Vice Versa. You must live in Grand Barachois
Not quite.

I am an admitted suburbanite. I neither live nor work in the downtown core of Moncton so I have no skin invested in this debate.

I however did live on the peninsula in Halifax for nine years, and survived quite admirably most of that time just walking everywhere, so I have some sympathies with the south enders. As a current suburbanite however I also understand and sympathize with the alternate point of view as well. Suburbanites do not want to be excluded or hampered in their access to the peninsula. Public transit isn't always an option.
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  #65  
Old Posted Dec 10, 2020, 7:31 PM
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What's cycling spending like for HRM compared to motor vehicle oriented spending? 1%? 5%?

The Burnside Expressway budget is around $210M.

The total build-out of the 102 widening is in the area of $1 billion, including the 102/103 exit re-do, Bayers Road widening, etc.

There is also the 103 twinning to Hubbards.

All within HRM
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  #66  
Old Posted Dec 10, 2020, 7:35 PM
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You used HRM-wide stats for a problem that only affects part of the region. Don't accuse others of misrepresenting you when you only reply to those that don't call you out on your awful, self-serving argument.
More bike lanes,more buses and more ferries will have almost negligible impact on the movement of people to the major employment centres in Halifax, Dartmouth and Bedford. If you have any evidence to the contrary put it forward. If you have a solution to the dilemma the region faces feel free to post. The MacKay bridge is 50 years old and HHBC CEO says it needs to be replaced; at a cost of $1 billion.
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  #67  
Old Posted Dec 10, 2020, 7:39 PM
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Originally Posted by MonctonRad View Post
Not quite.

I am an admitted suburbanite. I neither live nor work in the downtown core of Moncton so I have no skin invested in this debate.

I however did live on the peninsula in Halifax for nine years, and survived quite admirably most of that time just walking everywhere, so I have some sympathies with the south enders. As a current suburbanite however I also understand and sympathize with the alternate point of view as well. Suburbanites do not want to be excluded or hampered in their access to the peninsula. Public transit isn't always an option.

I really don't see what is so horrible about bike lanes on a few streets.
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  #68  
Old Posted Dec 10, 2020, 7:46 PM
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More bike lanes,more buses and more ferries will have almost negligible impact on the movement of people to the major employment centres in Halifax, Dartmouth and Bedford. If you have any evidence to the contrary put it forward. If you have a solution to the dilemma the region faces feel free to post. The MacKay bridge is 50 years old and HHBC CEO says it needs to be replaced; at a cost of $1 billion.

I think that there has to be a separation of bike lanes from the buses/ferries option when discussing the arteries onto the peninsula. Buses and ferries are being proposed to move a large number of people onto the peninsula when population growth would likely increase the volume of cars on the road. There is a need for a pressure release valve or way of getting some out of their cars.

I support the replacement of MacKay Bridge as another part of the solution.

I think the bike lane and buses option ON the Peninsula is there in order to convince peninsula residents to get out of their cars for getting to work, etc. It also contributes to a more liveable city.

I don't think the main goal is to outlaw cars. However, if we are all driving cars, and the population on and off the peninsula increases,...well then the situation will get worse.
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  #69  
Old Posted Dec 10, 2020, 7:46 PM
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Originally Posted by MonctonRad View Post
Not quite.

I am an admitted suburbanite. I neither live nor work in the downtown core of Moncton so I have no skin invested in this debate.

I however did live on the peninsula in Halifax for nine years, and survived quite admirably most of that time just walking everywhere, so I have some sympathies with the south enders. As a current suburbanite however I also understand and sympathize with the alternate point of view as well. Suburbanites do not want to be excluded or hampered in their access to the peninsula. Public transit isn't always an option.
I don't think suburbanites are being "punished" for the urban area building up cycling infrastructure, there should be LRT with park-and-ride to accommodate suburbanites working downtown. People just want to have their cake and eat it too, if they want detached housing but access to the better jobs downtown then being able to drive everywhere with impunity isn't really on. I say this as someone who prefers a suburban life over living in an apartment block/condo. Fast light rail is the only real way to accommodate both so let's get moving on it.
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  #70  
Old Posted Dec 10, 2020, 8:02 PM
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What's cycling spending like for HRM compared to motor vehicle oriented spending? 1%? 5%?

The Burnside Expressway budget is around $210M.
As it should be with 15,000 people going to work in Burnside every day. Burnside totals 45% of the entire Atlantic regions warehouse, light manufacturing and service company's. In other words a huge generator of wealth and unlike most of the rest of Metro Halifax almost all private business's. That very fact is probably why there are very few bike paths in Burnside as the David Fehrety experience would sadly happen every day.
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  #71  
Old Posted Dec 10, 2020, 8:18 PM
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Originally Posted by Antigonish View Post
I don't think suburbanites are being "punished" for the urban area building up cycling infrastructure, there should be LRT with park-and-ride to accommodate suburbanites working downtown. People just want to have their cake and eat it too, if they want detached housing but access to the better jobs downtown then being able to drive everywhere with impunity isn't really on. I say this as someone who prefers a suburban life over living in an apartment block/condo. Fast light rail is the only real way to accommodate both so let's get moving on it.
In 2018-19 32.6 million passenger vehicles used the two bridges. the number obviously includes buses and taxis.
On a working day 103,400 vehicles use the bridges.
https://www.hdbc.ca/wp-content/uploa...port-final.pdf
And the 2019-20 report shows average daily crossings in 2019 as 93,500. In April 2020 the number was down to 42,500.
Fast LRT cannot move tens of thousands of people to Burnside and the peninsula. CN has no interest in sharing the rails.
The possible fast ferry from Bedford is of little use in moving significant numbers of commuters.
When ferry capacity exceeds 400 passengers Coast Guard Regulations require another crew member. The ferry runs every 15 minutes and therefore the capacity to move a significant number of people is small.
The new outpatient clinic in Bayers Lake is a smart decision. It is close to major highways and more accessible to people from outside HRM. If an HRM resident needs minor day surgery it may require a trip to Windsor or Kentville. The expansion of the QE2 in central Halifax is a bad decision. Looking to the future increase in the population of the urban core I would have favoured a new QE2 at Bedford/Sackville - more central and more accessible location now and for many years ahead.
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  #72  
Old Posted Dec 10, 2020, 8:57 PM
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As it should be with 15,000 people going to work in Burnside every day. Burnside totals 45% of the entire Atlantic regions warehouse, light manufacturing and service company's. In other words a huge generator of wealth and unlike most of the rest of Metro Halifax almost all private business's. That very fact is probably why there are very few bike paths in Burnside as the David Fehrety experience would sadly happen every day.
My point is not that there shouldn't be new highways, it's that the scale of infrastructure investment needs to be taken into account too. If it is proportional to potential increases in modal share then it's not clear what the problem is.
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  #73  
Old Posted Dec 10, 2020, 10:44 PM
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The possible fast ferry from Bedford is of little use in moving significant numbers of commuters.
When ferry capacity exceeds 400 passengers Coast Guard Regulations require another crew member. The ferry runs every 15 minutes and therefore the capacity to move a significant number of people is small.
I’ve had the chance to ride fast ferries in the pearl river delta, a region similar in size to HRM but hosting 22 million and I think you underestimate the utility. These aren’t 400 passenger beasts, the average catamaran-hulled fast ferry holds no more than 200 persons. Even if each ferry only carried 50-100 people per trip, 50-100 cars can easily clog up an intersection.

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The new outpatient clinic in Bayers Lake is a smart decision. It is close to major highways and more accessible to people from outside HRM. If an HRM resident needs minor day surgery it may require a trip to Windsor or Kentville. The expansion of the QE2 in central Halifax is a bad decision. Looking to the future increase in the population of the urban core I would have favoured a new QE2 at Bedford/Sackville - more central and more accessible location now and for many years ahead.
I can understand your rationale for the outpatient clinic, but displacing the QE2 to Bedford/Sackville? What about all the retirement living centres close to the existing location? Is it really worth uprooting all these vulnerable people? Unreal.
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  #74  
Old Posted Dec 10, 2020, 11:34 PM
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I’ve had the chance to ride fast ferries in the pearl river delta, a region similar in size to HRM but hosting 22 million and I think you underestimate the utility. These aren’t 400 passenger beasts, the average catamaran-hulled fast ferry holds no more than 200 persons. Even if each ferry only carried 50-100 people per trip, 50-100 cars can easily clog up an intersection.
Often there's an attitude that every new transportation option needs to be a silver bullet. So what if the ferry carries 400 people? If there's demand it might be a good option to add to the mix. The cost/benefit ratio is what matters, and as the city grows it's likely the best transportation system for the metro area will include a mix of many different modes useful for different types of trips.

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I can understand your rationale for the outpatient clinic, but displacing the QE2 to Bedford/Sackville? What about all the retirement living centres close to the existing location? Is it really worth uprooting all these vulnerable people? Unreal.
The hospitals are near a bunch of existing buildings and Dalhousie, and the peninsula is more central to the region than Bedford or Sackville.

I wouldn't be surprised if the peninsula were one of the fastest growing parts of the city right now. The idea that the suburbs are booming and the city is declining is just a kind of time capsule talking point that doesn't fit the reality of recent years.
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  #75  
Old Posted Dec 10, 2020, 11:54 PM
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So, what we have here ladies and gentlemen, is a classist and philosophical struggle between peninsular Haligonians who want the peninsula for themselves, and suburban Haligonians just trying to get onto the peninsula (using their personal motor vehicles) so that they can go to work and make a living.
There is in fact a grain of truth to what you say, but being overly generalized will only hurt working class people. Let me elaborate...

There is definitely an issue of growing class division based on where we live, but I would stray away from using the word classist. Across major Canadian cities, urban neighbourhoods in and around the core have seen an increase in wealth, while the suburbs have seen average incomes decrease or stagnate. There are many reasons for this stretching beyond the scope of urban governance. There were never enough high-paying service sector jobs to replace the declining industrial sector. In addition, those at the high school or diploma level of education have seen their incomes stagnate or decline, while those with advanced degrees have only gotten more comfortable. People complaining about the urban elite? They’re not crazy, it’s real.

How does all this tie into AT investment? Even if the average income has gone up in urban areas doesn’t mean everyone there has benefited. In both north and south ends there are plenty of ordinary working people. I’ve noticed a trend to either place cyclists in the category of “poor”, or “entitled”. Fact is, from my circle I’ve known people from all backgrounds who use active transportation. I’m one of the younger participants on this forum (which explains my biases) who’s just getting started with his career in Onterrible, but I’m an NB’er by birth who’s had the chance to grow up in the the far suburbs, North, & South Ends of Halifax. My last peninsula neighbours had no degrees while working long shifts in retail all while having kids, and they counted on rusty old bikes to arrive at work on time. They had a car but it wasn’t reliable and perhaps too costly to run. I’ve had well-off family members bike or walk to work simply for the health benefits, or to save money on parking. I’ve had also had a family member who biked because having a tiny south end apt. made having a car too expensive. This is no analysis, but these stories are meant to spark some sympathy.

My point is that by opposing bike lanes, a lot of hard-working people have a harder time getting around in an affordable manner. Not every peninsular Haligonian is rolling in cash, and even those with decent salaries sometimes benefit to save money from gas and parking that went to a more expensive apt. or house. Only issue I see is that not enough bike lanes go to lower income neighbourhoods. I don’t know any cycling advocate who wants the peninsula for themselves, and I don’t understand why some see it as a zero-sum game.
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Last edited by Good Baklava; Dec 11, 2020 at 12:10 AM.
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  #76  
Old Posted Dec 11, 2020, 12:48 AM
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Often there's an attitude that every new transportation option needs to be a silver bullet. So what if the ferry carries 400 people? If there's demand it might be a good option to add to the mix. The cost/benefit ratio is what matters, and as the city grows it's likely the best transportation system for the metro area will include a mix of many different modes useful for different types of trips.
Sometimes paying nothing now costs more in the long run too. Perhaps no ferry would eventually mean more busses and highways. I’d say the demand in an area like Zhuhai or Shekou makes the justification more evident, but post pandemic Halifax is probably going to see their transit options develop incrementally. I suppose the advantage of a ferry is that they are fairly modular, so you can start small and move big. We can start with a 100 person ferry, then add more boats or bigger boats if it’s popular.
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  #77  
Old Posted Dec 11, 2020, 6:15 AM
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So, what we have here ladies and gentlemen, is a classist and philosophical struggle between peninsular Haligonians who want the peninsula for themselves, and suburban Haligonians just trying to get onto the peninsula (using their personal motor vehicles) so that they can go to work and make a living.
I can see how it can come off that way, but as someone who lives here this seems off in a few ways.

Most of the cyclists are younger people in the lower income brackets. There's this weird notion that the average cyclist is a multimillionaire tenured professor living in a heritage-designated South End estate, more often it tends to be students, retail and foodservice staff, and younger white-collar workers, and sometimes navy and hospital staff. These people would usually be making somewhere in the range of $15,000-50,000/year, and/or living off student loans. Most of the "woke hippie" types fall on the lower end of that range (it would be hard to reconcile a lot of salaried bank/corporate or military jobs, for example, the type of higher-paying job that tends to be readily available here, along with trades - this is a real factor for a lot of people that I think is overlooked), and on average most of the suburbs would be higher-income than that most of these cohorts. Other cyclists include people in public housing, and many of the people suddenly being priced out of mid-century apartment areas like Dutch Village. A lot of these people wouldn't be captured in "commutes by bicycle everyday" statistics (unemployed or retired people, youth, etc) and a lot of people drive or take transit some days and bike others.

Many of the profs associated with the ultra-Liberal Dalhousie type live in places like Bedford or Tantallon and drive SUVs, and a lot of people living in the suburbs don't work on the Peninsula. Most of the Peninsula, in turn, remains untouched by bike lanes. And of course some people do bike in from the suburbs (places like Spryfield and Fairview, not so much Fall River). And other people commute to work by bike within the suburbs, though most bike infrastructure isn't really built with them in mind.

It's a huge stretch to imply that the driver/cyclist dichotomy is a class struggle with cyclists being the "upper class" and suburban drivers being the oppressed working class. The reality is that there's a huge cohort of renters making <$40,000k/year living on the Peninsula, on its fringes, and in Dartmouth, all areas where rents have been steadily increasing, or suddenly skyrocketing, many already can't afford to pay both rent and car expenses, and this will be a larger and larger proportion if things continue the way they've been. If anyone's being forced to ride bikes instead of driving, it's them (well, us).

Of course there are also a lot of road network problems for suburban commuters but a lot of these are quietly being dealt with over time. And the city also puts in traffic calming measures in the suburbs unrelated to cycling that never seem to generate any complaints. Dealing with traffic is one of the main tradeoffs of living in the suburbs and I think most people here accept that as normal here at this point. And the actual impact of traffic tends to be felt more by the people living in high-traffic areas, not in the bedroom communities. These people also are trying to make a living.

A few suburban areas where I would say class and commuting issues intersect would be Spryfield, Sackville, the Highfield-Pinecrest part of Dartmouth, and the Prestons, although I don't think bike infrastructure has been a net negative for people in those areas.

There's no widespread distain for the suburbs or "suburban people" here in 2020 there's this weird conception of the Peninsula-as-a-whole as some kind of wealthy, Westmout-esque ivory tower, but it's very mixed-income, and the majority of people living there are not wealthy. Commute times are low on the list of most people's concerns, on the Peninsula and in the region as a whole.
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  #78  
Old Posted Dec 11, 2020, 6:58 AM
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Sometimes paying nothing now costs more in the long run too. Perhaps no ferry would eventually mean more busses and highways. I’d say the demand in an area like Zhuhai or Shekou makes the justification more evident, but post pandemic Halifax is probably going to see their transit options develop incrementally. I suppose the advantage of a ferry is that they are fairly modular, so you can start small and move big. We can start with a 100 person ferry, then add more boats or bigger boats if it’s popular.
I think there's a lot of advantage in trying things out, making incremental changes, and building up expertise over time. Often infrastructure can end up flawed and so isn't useful, people need to get used to services, and nobody really knows what will be popular in the long run. Transportation networks are rarely linear; it's normal for people to use their best option and for improvements to snowball, so improving by 1.5x might lead to 10x the ridership, not 1.5x.

Having some basic services of different modalities fits nicely into that more experimental kind of operation. Expand some bike lanes, tweak them if they're not working, try out a ferry to Bedford as a pilot project, etc.
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  #79  
Old Posted Dec 11, 2020, 7:06 AM
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It's a huge stretch to imply that the driver/cyclist dichotomy is a class struggle with cyclists being the "upper class" and suburban drivers being the oppressed working class.
There are transit riders too. A car is not cheap to operate and in the scheme of Halifax rent and house payments even the cheapest car/insurance/gas must be significant. Not sure about NS but around here I'd guess $400 a month is about the baseline while rent for a person splitting a modest 2 BR could be $800 a month. A transit pass is on the order of $100 a month and a bike is almost nothing per month. I think for many people of modest means, car-free living in an urban setting that's friendly to pedestrians and cycling is pretty attractive. It's very common around here. I'd guess that only something like 1/3 of people under 40 who I know own a car.

Halifax is a pretty good city for that because it's already fairly decent for car-free living, could get much better quickly, and the inner city parts are not priced out of reach of many people. I think that if it were planned well, there could be affordable housing for tens of thousands of additional people on the peninsula, and if that population were there, the density of services would increase such that getting by without a car would become very convenient in a large portion of the metro area. Cycling would be a part of that; it's pretty much unbeatable for medium length trips or trips with lots of stops when the infrastructure is semi-reasonable and the weather is okay.
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  #80  
Old Posted Dec 11, 2020, 12:37 PM
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Originally Posted by Summerville View Post
The total build-out of the 102 widening is in the area of $1 billion, including the 102/103 exit re-do, Bayers Road widening, etc.

There is also the 103 twinning to Hubbards.

All within HRM
Virtually none of it paid for by HRM however.

It is a bit of stretch to compare highway costs for bringing non-commuting visitors and commercial goods to/from the city to largely recreational bike lanes for a tiny fringe minority group to indulge their pastime. Planning dogma indeed.
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