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  #5641  
Old Posted Apr 8, 2021, 3:02 PM
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^That would be cool, but I'm still of the "everything must be a park" camp when it comes to the Toronto Islands.

Most of the allure of the Islands is that getting there is a bit of an adventure. The ferry is a joy to ride, and acts like a natural barrier to their spaces being completely overrun by visitors.

I know of a few other cities of our size that have nature on the doorstep of their CBD, but nothing quite like the islands.

I agree that we need to densify our city and add much-needed housing, but literally every other square inch of this city is more suitable for this than the Toronto Islands.
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  #5642  
Old Posted Apr 8, 2021, 3:21 PM
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Here are 3 development hotspots along Yonge Street (TTC Line 1) in Midtown Toronto. From top to bottom: Eglinton, Davisville, St Clair:

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Last edited by steveve; Apr 8, 2021 at 5:55 PM.
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  #5643  
Old Posted Apr 8, 2021, 3:40 PM
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Originally Posted by hipster duck View Post
^That would be cool, but I'm still of the "everything must be a park" camp when it comes to the Toronto Islands.

Most of the allure of the Islands is that getting there is a bit of an adventure. The ferry is a joy to ride, and acts like a natural barrier to their spaces being completely overrun by visitors.

I know of a few other cities of our size that have nature on the doorstep of their CBD, but nothing quite like the islands.

I agree that we need to densify our city and add much-needed housing, but literally every other square inch of this city is more suitable for this than the Toronto Islands.

It's not that this land is needed for more housing - I'd also prefer parkland to another mundane CityPlace-type development - so much as it is an opportunity to create a very special, one-of-a-kind urban neighbourhood.

I'm imagining some sort of futuristic Venice of lakeside plazas & attractions here, or laying the groundwork for a Kensington Market on the island. I think that would contribute something more important to the city as a whole than what a bit of extra green space could provide.
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  #5644  
Old Posted Apr 8, 2021, 3:50 PM
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I'm imagining some sort of futuristic Venice here, or laying the groundwork for a Kensington Market one the island. I think that would contribute something more important to the city as a whole than what a bit of extra green space could provide.
I agree with this on the whole but I don't know if the city could/if I trust the city to be able to develop something like a Kensington on the Islands. It would be neat but i'd be very impressed if anything actually took shape like that.

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Originally Posted by biguc
Building out Portlands (which would be a great place for a megatall) and BB would give it a serious megacity feel, like Shanghai mixed with Singapore.
Would a megatall at Portlands not be in the flight path of planes landing at BB?

Don't really think anything is done at BB until Portlands is built out for the most part into something big and dense. That's the more develop-able land at this point and should be the priority.

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Originally Posted by biguc
They also need another line across downtown from Bloor to East Harbour and into the Portlands.
Looking at things very roughly I think I would prefer a line from Portlands through Regent Park to Gerrard, then west on Gerrard until Keele, then north on Keele. It would fill in central sections not being covered by Ontario Line, connect the western terminus of St. Clair streetcar to something, and better connect the Junction to the rest of the city while adding a NW-to-SE option for travel.
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  #5645  
Old Posted Apr 8, 2021, 6:37 PM
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Originally Posted by hipster duck View Post
^That would be cool, but I'm still of the "everything must be a park" camp when it comes to the Toronto Islands.

Most of the allure of the Islands is that getting there is a bit of an adventure. The ferry is a joy to ride, and acts like a natural barrier to their spaces being completely overrun by visitors.

I know of a few other cities of our size that have nature on the doorstep of their CBD, but nothing quite like the islands.

I agree that we need to densify our city and add much-needed housing, but literally every other square inch of this city is more suitable for this than the Toronto Islands.
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  #5646  
Old Posted Apr 8, 2021, 6:47 PM
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Originally Posted by hipster duck View Post
^That would be cool, but I'm still of the "everything must be a park" camp when it comes to the Toronto Islands.
This makes me think of natural setting debates on SSP and how usually people usually implicitly translate "best natural setting" as "most dramatic big photo op with downtown in it". There's nothing wrong with that interpretation but it does not always capture the charm of what is available to visitors and residents. Some subtler Toronto examples are the beaches, the islands, and the Prince Edward Viaduct plus ravines. And lots of cities have great terminated urban vistas due to topography that aren't really that grandiose from a natural perspective. Of course, the cities with the best main photo ops often do better in these other areas too.
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  #5647  
Old Posted Apr 8, 2021, 7:37 PM
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Just random buildings from Vancouver and a few from Toronto, it doesn't even include the Westcorp Hotel tower or the three tower project on Leon. I would like to do something closer to an actual render based on the city center plan, but I've got a ways to go to make that happen. The final look of downtown Kelowna will look WAY better than this rendering!

Here is an animated version:

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  #5648  
Old Posted Apr 9, 2021, 8:22 AM
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Originally Posted by hipster duck View Post
^That would be cool, but I'm still of the "everything must be a park" camp when it comes to the Toronto Islands.

Most of the allure of the Islands is that getting there is a bit of an adventure. The ferry is a joy to ride, and acts like a natural barrier to their spaces being completely overrun by visitors.

I know of a few other cities of our size that have nature on the doorstep of their CBD, but nothing quite like the islands.

I agree that we need to densify our city and add much-needed housing, but literally every other square inch of this city is more suitable for this than the Toronto Islands.
But people already live on the Islands. Why shouldn't that be possible for more people? The rest of the islands would still exist for a natural getaway for the rest of the city--it's not like anyone enjoys Billy Bishop.
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  #5649  
Old Posted Apr 9, 2021, 1:29 PM
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But people already live on the Islands. Why shouldn't that be possible for more people? The rest of the islands would still exist for a natural getaway for the rest of the city--it's not like anyone enjoys Billy Bishop.

The people who already live there are on lots that are owned by the city. Essentially they own their homes but not the land they are on. Every residence is on city park land. The average wait for people joining the list to buy on the Islands is thirty-five years. There are only 262 residential properties up for grabs and they only get dropped into the lottery for applicants if the current home owners want to move out. Properties can be handed down to family members or friends so it's next to impossible to get a place on the island.

That being said, I don't think you'll find very many people in Toronto that would want to see a high density build up on the island if Billy Bishop were to ever close down. People are pretty protective of it and I could see a huge battle for what it's use might be. My best guess would be 100% all parkland, or a mixture of park and cultural venues. Having a a high density development over there would destroy the entire vibe of the archipelago.
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  #5650  
Old Posted Apr 9, 2021, 3:24 PM
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But people already live on the Islands. Why shouldn't that be possible for more people? The rest of the islands would still exist for a natural getaway for the rest of the city--it's not like anyone enjoys Billy Bishop.
What TorontoDrew said.

Also, the appeal of the Islands is precisely that it is inconvenient, albeit a democratic form of inconvenience.

I mean, it wouldn't cost much for the city to build a drawbridge here, but the capacity of the ferries limits the number of people who can be on the island at any given time leaving relatively uncongested beaches and public spaces that anyone can enjoy at any time.

Same with the housing situation. The city could have put these up for sale on the private land market, ensuring that nobody but the richest oligarchs build summer homes, but their wait list system ensures that anybody can buy a modest cabin, they just have to be patient.

***

Before this pandemic, I lamented how all the great places on earth were crawling with tourists and nothing was a secret any more. There were too many people on earth with enough money and I was saddened to think that the only way we could regulate this was to charge more money to access these things. I mean, I'm not rich, so if we did that, I'd probably be on the outside looking in as well.

The Toronto Islands proves that you can make a place enjoyable yet accessible to all, even if it's on the doorstep of a city of millions.
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  #5651  
Old Posted Apr 11, 2021, 1:20 AM
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  #5652  
Old Posted Apr 11, 2021, 6:08 AM
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Kelowna
That’s awesome !
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  #5653  
Old Posted Apr 12, 2021, 10:57 AM
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Originally Posted by hipster duck View Post
What TorontoDrew said.

Also, the appeal of the Islands is precisely that it is inconvenient, albeit a democratic form of inconvenience.

I mean, it wouldn't cost much for the city to build a drawbridge here, but the capacity of the ferries limits the number of people who can be on the island at any given time leaving relatively uncongested beaches and public spaces that anyone can enjoy at any time.

Same with the housing situation. The city could have put these up for sale on the private land market, ensuring that nobody but the richest oligarchs build summer homes, but their wait list system ensures that anybody can buy a modest cabin, they just have to be patient.

***

Before this pandemic, I lamented how all the great places on earth were crawling with tourists and nothing was a secret any more. There were too many people on earth with enough money and I was saddened to think that the only way we could regulate this was to charge more money to access these things. I mean, I'm not rich, so if we did that, I'd probably be on the outside looking in as well.

The Toronto Islands proves that you can make a place enjoyable yet accessible to all, even if it's on the doorstep of a city of millions.
That's cool, I didn't know the land on the island was leased. (Thanks for shedding light on that, Drew.) That makes them something like cottages in parks, or more like German Schrebegartens, which are usually on surplus land leased from the railway. Those things are great assets in German cities--I wish Canadian cities had them.

How would you feel about some of those on Billy Bishop?

I really do appreciate your point about keeping the Island islands. But I also really like JHikka's idea of Kensington Market with Canals. Couldn't they dig a new shipping channel along the runway to keep the Islands separate, and let a neighbourhood develop on the landward part?

It's not really Canada's style, but the best airport converted to a park has to be Tempelhofer Feld. The city has taken a hands-off approach to that--it wasn't even formally a park for years after it closed; people were using it as a de-facto park while it was fenced off. This resulted in a bunch of funny things developing in the airfield, like an anarchist allotment garden. Canadian cities tend to be too regimented for this, but I'd love to see an intentional community like Copenhagen's Freetown Christiana on Billy Bishop.
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  #5654  
Old Posted Apr 12, 2021, 2:36 PM
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I really do appreciate your point about keeping the Island islands. But I also really like JHikka's idea of Kensington Market with Canals. Couldn't they dig a new shipping channel along the runway to keep the Islands separate, and let a neighbourhood develop on the landward part?
Yes, I'd be fine with residential development on the airport lands (of a certain kind) as long as they sever any physical connection with the rest of the islands.
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  #5655  
Old Posted Apr 12, 2021, 2:51 PM
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I really do appreciate your point about keeping the Island islands. But I also really like JHikka's idea of Kensington Market with Canals.
I don't believe I suggested this. It'd be cool if a Kensington-type area could be developed on BB but I doubt it would actually end up anywhere near as good. Focus should be on Portlands for the foreseeable future where there's potential for a widespread urban grid.
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  #5656  
Old Posted Apr 12, 2021, 6:31 PM
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I don't believe I suggested this. It'd be cool if a Kensington-type area could be developed on BB but I doubt it would actually end up anywhere near as good. Focus should be on Portlands for the foreseeable future where there's potential for a widespread urban grid.
My mistake, that was MonkeyRonin. Apologies to you both.

And I agree: Portlands first. There's incredible potential out there.
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  #5657  
Old Posted Apr 12, 2021, 7:34 PM
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Originally Posted by biguc View Post
I really do appreciate your point about keeping the Island islands. But I also really like JHikka's idea of Kensington Market with Canals. Couldn't they dig a new shipping channel along the runway to keep the Islands separate, and let a neighbourhood develop on the landward part?

It's not really Canada's style, but the best airport converted to a park has to be Tempelhofer Feld. The city has taken a hands-off approach to that--it wasn't even formally a park for years after it closed; people were using it as a de-facto park while it was fenced off. This resulted in a bunch of funny things developing in the airfield, like an anarchist allotment garden. Canadian cities tend to be too regimented for this, but I'd love to see an intentional community like Copenhagen's Freetown Christiana on Billy Bishop.

That was my idea.

Freetown Christiana was actually along the lines of what I had in mind when writing that - an experiment in grassroots, laissez-faire urbanism. Divvy the land up into small allotments that the City could sell or lease to private individuals (no corporate ownerships, no land assemblies, many/most at below-market rates), provide services, and then let nature take its course! Or something like that - it’s nothing more than a vague thought.

Of course, Toronto-the-government is way too conservative for anything like that at the moment anyway. Or even for an ambitious, centrally-planned Harbour City-type development. Maybe in the 60s; but realistically if the City were involved it would just end up as a Cityplace-on-the-Island with a half dozen plots of land sold to the highest-bidding developer.


Tempelhofer is cool too; I like when people make impromptu use of otherwise unused spaces. I don’t think that sort of thing could ever happen with Billy Bishop (too desirable and prominent), but that sort of thing does happen in Toronto - they’re just eventually sold to condo developers. Bloordale Beach is the latest such reclaimed public space here, which appeared last summer on the site of a demolished school. It’s literally just a dirt patch with a cheeky name, but all the same has become a semi-popular local park:


https://www.thestar.com/opinion/cont...ept-water.html
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  #5658  
Old Posted Apr 12, 2021, 8:07 PM
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Good thing UNESCO got in there!

Man, a Christiana-Tempelhofer hybrid on an island off Toronto. Keep it boat access only. That would be a special place.
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  #5659  
Old Posted Apr 13, 2021, 10:41 AM
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  #5660  
Old Posted Apr 13, 2021, 2:45 PM
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Future Midtown skyline(s). Looking north along Yonge Street from St Clair to Eglinton:

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